Index linked gilts and broker's valuation

[mc2fool]

I just bought my first index linked gilt, a small holding of TR24. All fine and good as far as it went but in the account valuation IWeb shows it at the unindexed price (97.86) and displays the value of the holding based on that, rather than the indexed price (151.5ish), and so it shows that I'm some 35% down.

Of course, I know I'm not, but it is nevertheless annoying, as while I understand the utility of an unindexed price, a portfolio valuation screen should, IMHO, show the actual current value of the holdings and the portfolio, I'd have thought!

So, before I put in a grizzle to IWeb, I was just wondering if any other brokers do better and show the actual current, indexed, value of ILG holdings? Or is the IWeb behaviour standard?

(Clean vs dirty in respect of accrued interest is perhaps a separate matter....)

[Spet0789]

I just bought my first index linked gilt, a small holding of TR24. All fine and good as far as it went but in the account valuation IWeb shows it at the unindexed price (97.86) and displays the value of the holding based on that, rather than the indexed price (151.5ish), and so it shows that I'm some 35% down.

Of course, I know I'm not, but it is nevertheless annoying, as while I understand the utility of an unindexed price, a portfolio valuation screen should, IMHO, show the actual current value of the holdings and the portfolio, I'd have thought!

So, before I put in a grizzle to IWeb, I was just wondering if any other brokers do better and show the actual current, indexed, value of ILG holdings? Or is the IWeb behaviour standard?

(Clean vs dirty in respect of accrued interest is perhaps a separate matter....)

HL have the same issue. Will take a little systems work to pull in the index ratio.

[mc2fool]

HL have the same issue. Will take a little systems work to pull in the index ratio.

Ho hum, so I need to program in (yet) another place to scrape data from in my spreadsheets... sigh...

I suppose I could get (3 month old) RPI from somewhere and do the calculation, but I might a well just scrape the indexed price from somewhere, if I can find somewhere convenient do to so from.

Tradeweb is no good 'cos that needs a login, and yieldgimp seems to have an iframe within an iframe, and with them dynamically generated and nothing in the HTML of the page to indicate where they live, so, unless the inner frame with the table in it has a static address (currently https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... Vi/pubhtml) then that's no good. We'll see if it does....

Anyone know of anywhere else I could get an indexed price from (or full on dirty, including indexing and accrued interest) that might be scrape-able?

[y0rkiebar]

Here's a page with the dirty price. I tried to scrape it in google sheets but couldn't get it to work, was on a very underpowered chromebook though.

https://www.sharecast.com/gilt/United_K ... _Gilt_2024

[mc2fool]

Here's a page with the dirty price. I tried to scrape it in google sheets but couldn't get it to work, was on a very underpowered chromebook though.

https://www.sharecast.com/gilt/United_K ... _Gilt_2024

Thanks! I managed to suck the relevant table into Excel using Get External Data. Now to see if I can get just the info I want with a bit of Visual Basic....

BTW, that page seems to attribute the entire dirty vs clear price to Accrued Interest (53.53£), rather than mostly indexing and just a few pence of interest, but that doesn't matter for my purposes as I'm not looking at that!

[mc2fool]

Here's a page with the dirty price. I tried to scrape it in google sheets but couldn't get it to work, was on a very underpowered chromebook though.

https://www.sharecast.com/gilt/United_K ... _Gilt_2024

Thanks! I managed to suck the relevant table into Excel using Get External Data. Now to see if I can get just the info I want with a bit of Visual Basic....

BTW, that page seems to attribute the entire dirty vs clear price to Accrued Interest (53.53£), rather than mostly indexing and just a few pence of interest, but that doesn't matter for my purposes as I'm not looking at that!

Hmmm...well Sharecast has that one but it seems to be missing the Jan 2024 & 2025 low coupon normal gilts that I also hold, which means I'll have to continue scraping from HL for those....(I was hoping to use just one source for all of them!)

[GeoffF100]

I complained to AJ Bell about this problem and they fixed the it. I complained to iWeb but they refused to fix it. That is annoying. iWeb should give a correct valuation or at least say "price not found". I get dirty prices from Tradeweb, which is the official source for historical prices.

[mc2fool]

I complained to AJ Bell about this problem and they fixed the it. I complained to iWeb but they refused to fix it. That is annoying. iWeb should give a correct valuation or at least say "price not found". I get dirty prices from Tradeweb, which is the official source for historical prices.

Hmmm ... I'm not sure if that means I shouldn't bother to complain to IWeb (not worth the effort) or I should complain to IWeb (add another voice)!

Re Tradeweb, yes, but it's not auto-scrape-able as one has to login to get the data.

[NearlyThere]

I just bought my first index linked gilt, a small holding of TR24. All fine and good as far as it went but in the account valuation IWeb shows it at the unindexed price (97.86) and displays the value of the holding based on that, rather than the indexed price (151.5ish), and so it shows that I'm some 35% down.

Of course, I know I'm not, but it is nevertheless annoying, as while I understand the utility of an unindexed price, a portfolio valuation screen should, IMHO, show the actual current value of the holdings and the portfolio, I'd have thought!

So, before I put in a grizzle to IWeb, I was just wondering if any other brokers do better and show the actual current, indexed, value of ILG holdings? Or is the IWeb behaviour standard?

(Clean vs dirty in respect of accrued interest is perhaps a separate matter....)

HL have the same issue. Will take a little systems work to pull in the index ratio.

It's the same with Interactive Investor. I made my first ever purchase of an index linked gilt (TR26) yesterday. My ii account shows the clean price only in portfolio valuation. I'll send them a message to ask if the index valuation can be added, but I don't hold out much hope.

[mc2fool]

HL have the same issue. Will take a little systems work to pull in the index ratio.

It's the same with Interactive Investor. I made my first ever purchase of an index linked gilt (TR26) yesterday. My ii account shows the clean price only in portfolio valuation. I'll send them a message to ask if the index valuation can be added, but I don't hold out much hope.

Slightly tangential question: index linkers with II (my other broker) always seem to say "This instrument can only be traded via phone", so you had to phone in, right? How much did they charge you, dealing fee wise?

IWeb for index linkers let you put in the order online but say "Your order cannot be completed automatically at this time, but can still be submitted as a negotiated order. ... Your order will be sent directly to our Dealers who will negotiate the best price available for your order in the market at that time."

And actually, part of the reason for my (so far only) small foray into TR24 yesterday was to see how that worked, and the trade happened 7 minutes later, at very close to the price I was expecting (not that gilts are normally volatile minute to minute anyway), and for just the standard IWeb fee of £5....

[NearlyThere]

Slightly tangential question: index linkers with II (my other broker) always seem to say "This instrument can only be traded via phone", so you had to phone in, right? How much did they charge you, dealing fee wise?

Yes, I had to phone in. They charged me £5.99 (I had already used my monthly credit)

IWeb for index linkers let you put in the order online but say "Your order cannot be completed automatically at this time, but can still be submitted as a negotiated order. ... Your order will be sent directly to our Dealers who will negotiate the best price available for your order in the market at that time."

And actually, part of the reason for my (so far only) small foray into TR24 yesterday was to see how that worked, and the trade happened 7 minutes later, at very close to the price I was expecting (not that gilts are normally volatile minute to minute anyway), and for just the standard IWeb fee of £5....

The agent on the phone gave me an "indicative dirty price". When I said OK, I was put on hold for about 10 minutes whilst the trade was made, then she came back on and confirmed actual values which were the same as the "indicative" £5.99 for the trade seems good to me

I must admit this is all new to me. I second Itsallaguess' suggestion that a walkthrough from the more knowledgable would be very helpful.

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=40044

Neil

[mc2fool]

Slightly tangential question: index linkers with II (my other broker) always seem to say "This instrument can only be traded via phone", so you had to phone in, right? How much did they charge you, dealing fee wise?

Yes, I had to phone in. They charged me £5.99 (I had already used my monthly credit)

Ah, ok, so they didn't charge you their £49 ( ) phone dealing fee then, which is of course good, as you have no choice for index linkers but to call in.

[GeoffF100]

Hmmm ... I'm not sure if that means I shouldn't bother to complain to IWeb (not worth the effort) or I should complain to IWeb (add another voice)!

Re Tradeweb, yes, but it's not auto-scrape-able as one has to login to get the data.

I complained some time ago when real yields were negative. I was selling in my SIPP and buying in my dealing account, so I was not bothered about that, but I do not expect there were many retail buyers then. That has changed. If there is chorus of complaint now, it might work.

You could try something like this:

https://automatetheboringstuff.com/2e/c ... bre_link-2

[GeoffF100]

IWeb for index linkers let you put in the order online but say "Your order cannot be completed automatically at this time, but can still be submitted as a negotiated order. ... Your order will be sent directly to our Dealers who will negotiate the best price available for your order in the market at that time."

And actually, part of the reason for my (so far only) small foray into TR24 yesterday was to see how that worked, and the trade happened 7 minutes later, at very close to the price I was expecting (not that gilts are normally volatile minute to minute anyway), and for just the standard IWeb fee of £5....

The agent on the phone gave me an "indicative dirty price". When I said OK, I was put on hold for about 10 minutes whilst the trade was made, then she came back on and confirmed actual values which were the same as the "indicative" £5.99 for the trade seems good to me

I put my last buy order through online as a negotiated order. My trade showed up in the LSE's last five trades. It was at the lowest traded price of the day, which was not bad since I was buying! (There were so few trades for TG36 that I could see them all on the graph for the day.)

[mc2fool]

Re Tradeweb, yes, but it's not auto-scrape-able as one has to login to get the data.

You could try something like this:

https://automatetheboringstuff.com/2e/c ... bre_link-2

No need now, I've already added some VB to my spreadsheets to get the dirty price for TR24 from Sharecast. We'll see how that goes over time...

[dealtn]

The agent on the phone gave me an "indicative dirty price". When I said OK, I was put on hold for about 10 minutes whilst the trade was made, then she came back on and confirmed actual values which were the same as the "indicative" £5.99 for the trade seems good to me

I put my last buy order through online as a negotiated order. My trade showed up in the LSE's last five trades. It was at the lowest traded price of the day, which was not bad since I was buying! (There were so few trades for TG36 that I could see them all on the graph for the day.)

I would be concerned that a broker was directing your order to such an illiquid trading market when billions are traded in the secondary market elsewhere.

However. That doesn't surprise me in the slightest, and I imagine most retail brokers do exactly the same.

Hopefully something vaguely looking like a positive return, and income - which seems to be what matters to most retail investors - will drive some kind of market pressure reform across the Gilt space. I'm not holding my breath though!

[Lootman]

I put my last buy order through online as a negotiated order. My trade showed up in the LSE's last five trades. It was at the lowest traded price of the day, which was not bad since I was buying! (There were so few trades for TG36 that I could see them all on the graph for the day.)

I would be concerned that a broker was directing your order to such an illiquid trading market when billions are traded in the secondary market elsewhere.

However. That doesn't surprise me in the slightest, and I imagine most retail brokers do exactly the same.

Yeah, payment for order flow and so-called "soft-dollaring" were rife when I worked at brokers and buy-side places. But for small private investors it is not a big deal. It is the fund managers doing it that is the bigger problem but retail investors never complain.

[gpadsa]

in the account valuation IWeb shows it at the unindexed price (97.86) and displays the value of the holding based on that, rather than the indexed price (151.5ish), and so it shows that I'm some 35% down.

The same occurs for IL gilts at x-o.co.uk

When dealing online or by phone it's £5.95 and it is hair raising because they have clean/dirty & pounds/pence confusions. They send 2 contract notes, the 1st is erroneous saying it cost the clean price amount (or 1/100th of it) & that's what they've taken from my cash account.. A day later (presumably their overnight sweep flags up errors) a 2nd contract note arrives showing the correct dirty price amount taken from the cash account.

Experience shows if I want to buy say ~£15k of TR24 (dirty price currently around 151) I should say/type "10,000 at 0.979" and it will (after 2 contract notes) work out OK.

Retail investors who buy low-coupon gilts to limit interest income PSA overshoot are probably less bothered about tight spreads because of the tax saving.

gpadsa

[mc2fool]

in the account valuation IWeb shows it at the unindexed price (97.86) and displays the value of the holding based on that, rather than the indexed price (151.5ish), and so it shows that I'm some 35% down.

The same occurs for IL gilts at x-o.co.uk

When dealing online or by phone it's £5.95 and it is hair raising because they have clean/dirty & pounds/pence confusions. They send 2 contract notes, the 1st is erroneous saying it cost the clean price amount (or 1/100th of it) & that's what they've taken from my cash account.. A day later (presumably their overnight sweep flags up errors) a 2nd contract note arrives showing the correct dirty price amount taken from the cash account.

Experience shows if I want to buy say ~£15k of TR24 (dirty price currently around 151) I should say/type "10,000 at 0.979" and it will (after 2 contract notes) work out OK.

Retail investors who buy low-coupon gilts to limit interest income PSA overshoot are probably less bothered about tight spreads because of the tax saving.

gpadsa

The two contract notes is bizarre. But are you saying that with x-o you can trade index linked gilts online, live? Like it gives you a quote and 15 seconds to accept it? And don't x-o have a buy-by-amount facility, so if you want to buy £15k of TR24 you simply say "£15k of TR24"?

[Spet0789]

The same occurs for IL gilts at x-o.co.uk

When dealing online or by phone it's £5.95 and it is hair raising because they have clean/dirty & pounds/pence confusions. They send 2 contract notes, the 1st is erroneous saying it cost the clean price amount (or 1/100th of it) & that's what they've taken from my cash account.. A day later (presumably their overnight sweep flags up errors) a 2nd contract note arrives showing the correct dirty price amount taken from the cash account.

Experience shows if I want to buy say ~£15k of TR24 (dirty price currently around 151) I should say/type "10,000 at 0.979" and it will (after 2 contract notes) work out OK.

Retail investors who buy low-coupon gilts to limit interest income PSA overshoot are probably less bothered about tight spreads because of the tax saving.

gpadsa

The two contract notes is bizarre. But are you saying that with x-o you can trade index linked gilts online, live? Like it gives you a quote and 15 seconds to accept it? And don't x-o have a buy-by-amount facility, so if you want to buy £15k of TR24 you simply say "£15k of TR24"?

I traded with HL and the simple way is to specify the amount of cash you want to invest and then check that the clean price (excluding the index-ratio) is sensible.