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A question about graphs available online

Reading price charts which may give you direction in the market using established TA methodology
Pipsmum
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A question about graphs available online

#167060

Postby Pipsmum » September 17th, 2018, 11:44 pm

A recent observation whilst trading using the Hargreaves Lansdown site and using their own graphs.

Sometimes the high spikes or dips observed on a graph are not triggering sales limits or buy limits that seem to be well within the graph area. I phoned the trading desk to ask why, and a very obliging and patient gentleman explained that the graphs were drawn from an average, made both of sales and purchases at any given time slot. So they weren't strictly one nor the other.

Is there a site or chart anywhere that actually is either sales OR purchases, or is it just impossible to tell?

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#167069

Postby tjh290633 » September 18th, 2018, 1:18 am

The principle is that for every sale there is a purchase. In general if the purchase is below the middle price, it was a sale and vice versa, it was a genuine purchase, but that is not necessarily true.

TJH

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#167116

Postby GoSeigen » September 18th, 2018, 10:18 am

Pipsmum wrote:A recent observation whilst trading using the Hargreaves Lansdown site and using their own graphs.

Sometimes the high spikes or dips observed on a graph are not triggering sales limits or buy limits that seem to be well within the graph area. I phoned the trading desk to ask why, and a very obliging and patient gentleman explained that the graphs were drawn from an average, made both of sales and purchases at any given time slot. So they weren't strictly one nor the other.

Is there a site or chart anywhere that actually is either sales OR purchases, or is it just impossible to tell?


The problem is not the charts so much as the type of order. A limit order creates no obligation on the broker to trade at the price specified, it only gives them the right to do so. If you want to be sure of your trade being executed you must place a market order. Also a "graph" like those published by HL cannot trigger anything -- it is merely an abstract representation of the variation of the price of actual trades or orders (or something else) in the market.


GS

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#167380

Postby Pipsmum » September 19th, 2018, 8:56 am

Thank you. I thought that sell orders and limit orders left with a broker were like definite automatic computer function triggers for sales and buys. I hadn't realised they could be manual.

I did realise the graph was only a representation. I usually keep the google version open as well because the figures seem more responsive to the open market. HL's seems more specific to itself by comparison.

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#167497

Postby DiamondEcho » September 19th, 2018, 4:28 pm

Do HL put customer orders directly into the LSE, or are customers trading on HLs internal order book? From that follows the question whether the chart mid-price indicated is from the LSE or, similarly, HLs internal book, aka retail book.

Another possibility could be the other-side of the price has entered a Fill-or-Kill order type, ie complete the entire trade in one go or kill the order. If such an order indicated a match at 'your price', but your order was smaller, your order wldn't fill at all.

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#167722

Postby Pipsmum » September 20th, 2018, 4:19 pm

All set alongside the ordinary share buying areas as buy and sell limit orders so far.

It is merely an interesting point... because for making up short term strategies using the graphs as guides, they are then technically too inaccurate to base a firm figure strategy plan upon.

The interesting thing is that sometimes they are triggered, and sometimes not, so it's hard to make any definite trading decisions. I suppose it depends if the graph high point is a selling or a buying record.

Just some noted down examples.
I sat there one day actually watching a sell price peak briefly over 422.50 but it didn't appear on the graph at all.
On another day a different spike showing on the graph @422.5 didn't set off either sale set @418.44 nor @417.44.
Yet a few days earlier, a spike showing @417 on the graph had set off two separate sales @418.3935 and @417.3971....

Just interested really and noting these things for my own learning purposes. Perhaps many charts need looking at side by side to be more accurate. I suppose the LSE would be the most accurate graphs to base decisions upon.

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#173072

Postby Pipsmum » October 11th, 2018, 4:53 pm

Another graph question if anyone would oblige.

What site gives a really nice candlestick graph image that can be:-
a) drawn upon very easily
b) enlarged and reduced easily
c) shows the candlestick types well for those wishing to learn the formations

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#173074

Postby DiamondEcho » October 11th, 2018, 4:58 pm

I haven't seen a site offering all of that (FWIW). I suspect you might be in the realms of a professional charting software package.

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#173196

Postby GoSeigen » October 12th, 2018, 8:09 am

Pipsmum wrote:Another graph question if anyone would oblige.

What site gives a really nice candlestick graph image that can be:-
a) drawn upon very easily
b) enlarged and reduced easily
c) shows the candlestick types well for those wishing to learn the formations


In TA they are referred to as charts, so you may have more success searching Google etc. if you use that word.

There are millions of sites explaining this sort of thing, I doubt any can be highly recommended over the others as this practice is on a par with Tarot: i.e. the candlesticks probably tell you nothing, but could maybe be used as a tool to understand the market itself.

For drawing your own customisable charts http://stockcharts.com/ is pretty good. You can link to them too.

For full flexibility you probably need an App. IGIndex's ProRealTime is pretty good but you need an active account to use it. Their mobile app is well-featured but curiously doesn't display log charts which IMO is an absolutely basic requirement.


GS

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#173497

Postby Pipsmum » October 13th, 2018, 2:45 pm

Oooh thank you. The pro realtime has an end of day version that is free. Exactly what I was looking for. Much obliged.

Just looking to small time daytrade on tiny longs just for £20 a day to cover my sons uni accommodation. I've been doing quite well at it (well except for the recent crash) but any more clues not to get it very wrong are always helpful.

I have to look after my ailing mum so I'm trying to find things I can do there to amuse myself so I'm not being very serious about it. Just playing really.

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#173593

Postby DiamondEcho » October 13th, 2018, 10:27 pm

Pipsmum wrote:Just looking to small time daytrade on tiny longs just for £20 a day to cover my sons uni accommodation. I've been doing quite well at it (well except for the recent crash) but any more clues not to get it very wrong are always helpful. ...Just playing really.


And it's 'fun' playing until you get napalmed, when it's deeply unpleasant. What you're doing would scare me, and there is no way I'd do it; despite or perhaps because of my career having been on bank trading floors. Take care eh, and keep limits/stops on your downside is my suggestion.

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#173610

Postby Itsallaguess » October 14th, 2018, 6:04 am

Pipsmum wrote:
I've been doing quite well at it (well except for the recent crash) but any more clues not to get it very wrong are always helpful.


I think a full understanding and appreciation that 'a rising tide lifts all boats' will come in handy.....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#173611

Postby Rehanrajput » October 14th, 2018, 6:44 am

can someone tell me how can I do post

Itsallaguess
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Re: A question about graphs available online

#173614

Postby Itsallaguess » October 14th, 2018, 8:26 am

Rehanrajput wrote:
can someone tell me how can I do post


Hi Rehanrajput,

Welcome to the Lemon Fool, we're always happy to see new users on this website, so I hope we're able to help get you going if you're having any issues.

It's not quite clear what sort of help you're looking for, so would it be possible for you to describe what the issue is that you're wanting assistance with?

You've made a reply to an existing 'topic', which is a discussion topic started by someone else, so you now hopefully know how to do that, at least.

If you're wanting to start a new 'topic' yourself, to discuss something specific, or ask a question that's not related to this topic, then I think the best way to perhaps achieve that would be to click on the link below, which will go to the 'Biscuit Bar' area of this board, and select the 'New Topic' button just under the 'Biscuit Bar' heading, which you'll hopefully see just under the main 'Lemon Fool' banner at the top of that page -

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=21

When you've selected the 'New Topic' button, you'll be presented with a page that allows you to start your own conversational topic. You can enter your own 'Subject' heading for the new topic in the upper box, and then you can type your first message of that topic in the box underneath it.

Under the main box where you can type your message, you will see a couple of other buttons to help you submit the new 'topic' to the board - the first useful one is the 'Preview' button, where a preview of your message as it will be seen by other users can be viewed before you actually submit it to the board fully.

The second useful button is the 'Submit' button itself, which will actually save your new topic to the board, ready for other users to read it and hopefully contribute to it if they feel that they've anything useful to add to it.

I hope the above is useful, but even if you've got some other questions regarding the use of this messaging board, I think the best thing to do would be to start a new topic on the 'Biscuit Bar' link above, asking for further help with any issues you might have. That way, this topic won't get disrupted by what we call 'off-topic' discussions, which sometimes get confusing to follow when people try to talk about different things on a given topic.

I'll keep an eye out for your posts if you've got any further questions. I hope the above is helpful in getting you going.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#174098

Postby Pipsmum » October 16th, 2018, 11:58 am

DiamondEcho wrote:
And it's 'fun' playing until you get napalmed, when it's deeply unpleasant. What you're doing would scare me, and there is no way I'd do it; despite or perhaps because of my career having been on bank trading floors. Take care eh, and keep limits/stops on your downside is my suggestion.


Thank you. The recent dip did indeed mean the game was semi-napalmed but only on long term good purchases and not silly shares. It's not ruined the entire game but just nipped the three playtime zigzag catching fishing nets in the bud for a bit. Comes with playing with flames, but long term should do no severe damage as long as any shares bought are only chosen from the very strong, very long term, very right hand slope upwards types and no variable others. Just means they're longer term buys instead of zig zag catching. So saving up for a new fishing net or until an existing one gets liberated by an SP rise. Pity they weren't saved by sensible stop losses because the current low prices are much better fishes.

Always very happy to learn from the knowledgeable as I am definitely not one, but am hopefully getting better. These experiences all add to the valuable learning curve.

Limits and stops now under current learning scrutiny. I found a formula suggestion to work them out based on pivot points.

This is what I found to calculate things.
Deffo testing on a paper platform first to test it's worthiness in advance before any more burns.

Pivot = previous days High + Low + close / 3
Support level 1 = pivot x 2 - prev High
Resistance level 1 = pivot x 2 - prev Low
Support level 2 = pivot x 2 - (prev High + Low)
Resistance level 2 = pivot x 2 + (prev High + Low)

Risk/reward calc:-
Profit to be 3 x the risk
Stop loss figure x 3

Stop loss position:-
Using beta indicator between 0-2 = stops loss @ 10% - 20% lower than buying price
(I haven't yet researched beta indicators so currently fairly meaningless to me)

Re scary. Agreed... However, If a thought is pre-calculated on a solid theory, not on human impulse. Can that it actually be made unscary? There are only two ways a share can go. Up or down. So they are, by default, 50% predictable. Any more factors should make the 50% a little more predictable and if more than a 50% successful rate is achieved then the income curve ought to be gently upwards not downwards.... in theory.

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#174164

Postby GoSeigen » October 16th, 2018, 3:07 pm

Pipsmum wrote:
DiamondEcho wrote:
And it's 'fun' playing until you get napalmed, when it's deeply unpleasant. What you're doing would scare me, and there is no way I'd do it; despite or perhaps because of my career having been on bank trading floors. Take care eh, and keep limits/stops on your downside is my suggestion.


There are only two ways a share can go. Up or down. So they are, by default, 50% predictable.


This is not true. Here are a few possibilities:

1. Down, down and down
2. Down, down then sideways
3. Down, sideways then down
4. Down, sideways, then sideways
5. Down, sideways then down again

etc etc.


I've a number of holdings that have done practically nothing for 2-3 years. What's your decision after watching this inaction for a year or two? Do you wait that long? Or do you sell as soon as a share goes down 2% because that is a "movement" and you want to cut your losses and invest in something else that might go "up"?



I'm afraid DE was far too polite above. The market is brutal: it is designed to strip the hapless of their capital and hand it to those who have a clue. Stop orders will not save you -- they will simply lock in losses at the worst possible price.

Most of what you read in TA is nonsense. Pivots are nonsense. Support is not support, it is at best potential support and what does that mean? Stops are no better than a market order at the same price and often worse. And so on...

OldCharlie, a long-time practitioner on this board, in spite of years of TA study was so timid she never made much money even when her calls were good. After some 13 years doing this full time, I still shoot for 3%pa net net net from my capital and some years fail even to achieve that.

Sorry but saying markets can only go up or down is a gross over-simplification of the reality.

GS

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#174204

Postby Pipsmum » October 16th, 2018, 5:28 pm

Up, down or sideways. Hapless so far, maybe.... but the intention is firmly to be one of those who eventually has that clue you talk of.

However, such as it is..... my own need is to do it and to get it right more than not. With a son at uni needing rent and a totally disabled mother, no normal earnings related job is possible with her 24 hr care. The stock market seems an ideal candidate for getting any income whatsoever.

Some FDP stocks got bought on the 11th and sold this afternoon five days later for a £565.30 profit. That's his rent covered for over a month. Until the recent price fall of shares his rent had been covered weekly at £103.50 by average shares profits of between £10 to £30 a time by catching zig zags in the three weeks or so prior. That got wiped of course. The success rate is not all win win but the gains outweighed the losses until the large drop recently.

Naive, yes. I'll accept that 100%, but as one who is definitely not stupid, there will be a lot of research done before committing each time. The recent stock price fall was a huge one and abnormal in the ten year history of these particular shares that were bought.

So I am looking for any 'edges' that might exist. Candlesticks, supports, trends, pivots, stops and even leprechaun pots at rainbow ends will do. I'm prepared to look at them all in a test run on paper shares. Something has to be right.

Even Mr Benjamin Graham agrees that a stock player can have a 'gambling' pot alongside his serious shares.

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#174266

Postby DiamondEcho » October 16th, 2018, 9:46 pm

Pipsmum wrote:Up, down or sideways. Hapless so far, maybe.... but the intention is firmly to be one of those who eventually has that clue you talk of....

I intend this to be my last post to you on this topic, as I believe I have already tried to make myself clear, and yet you seem to continue to take the subject lightly - in my humble opinion.

You are delving into the realms of deep technically driven trading strategies. It's a hugely complex area and the fact you don't seem to fully appreciate that is a red flag to me. It concerns me that you seem to believe you have mastered TA as perhaps something infallible. I rather doubt you have as it's regarded as much a subjective 'art, rather than a science', and even if you have it certainly isn't infallible.

Please take great care.

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#174300

Postby Itsallaguess » October 17th, 2018, 4:52 am

Pipsmum wrote:
However, such as it is..... my own need is to do it and to get it right more than not. With a son at uni needing rent and a totally disabled mother, no normal earnings related job is possible with her 24 hr care. The stock market seems an ideal candidate for getting any income whatsoever.

Some FDP stocks got bought on the 11th and sold this afternoon five days later for a £565.30 profit. That's his rent covered for over a month.

Even Mr Benjamin Graham agrees that a stock player can have a 'gambling' pot alongside his serious shares.


I'm fairly sure Ben Graham might have been advocating such a pot so as to give you some fun-money to play with whilst the heavy lifting was being done by the other 'serious' shares, and not to need such a pot to provide what really sounds like life's essentials when you're talking about things like rent....

I think you need to look at an alternative provision of these requirements, as in all honesty it sounds like you're gambling, not investing...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: A question about graphs available online

#174744

Postby Pipsmum » October 18th, 2018, 5:59 pm

All warnings are being heeded and the concern much appreciated. I do thank you genuinely for the finger wagging however it is put. I might argue if I was going to (which I'm not) that becoming accomplished in anything takes lots of practice and many mistakes.

Seeing as the expertly managed funds - aka Jupiter India and Mr Woodfords Income focus fund are respectively 28.64% down and 14.44% down in my portfolio of 'serious shares'. It does make it hard to appreciate that being an 'expert' in stock buying has much better a consequence at the moment.

If one wanted over 3% with no risk, then opening a TSB savings account gets 5% and Tescos gets 3%. Nice and safe.


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