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Smithson Annual Report

Closed-end funds and OEICs
Dod101
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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#500770

Postby Dod101 » May 16th, 2022, 12:38 pm

simoan wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
simoan wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Gave up on Smithson today at £1.27. Should have done it long before but I still came out with a 27% profit. As I said earlier I do not like the governance nor the very high management charges and I will not just sit and watch the profits ebbing away.

Dod

This is remarkably short term thinking. You need to question the whole psychology of "I will not just sit and watch the profits ebbing away". I assume you only feel like this because it pays a very small or no dividend? Maybe if it was paying a 5% dividend you'd feel very differently, which makes no sense IMHO. A reduction in capital always matters, regardless of any income generated. You may well have just sold near near the bottom with the IT on a 11% discount! If you've ever read "The Art of Execution" (one of the great investing books IMHO) then this is a bona fide losing strategy. Although I'm not over the moon with some of the holdings, and never really have been (i.e. Domino's and Rightmove) I'd be more inclined to buy more than sell at such a discount, and may in fact do so myself.

All the best, Si


Yes I have read the Art of Execution and understand very well what it is saying. Call it short term thinking but as I said earlier in the thread, I am rather prejudiced against Terry Smith anyway, what with the very high charges, and as I said, I do not much like the corporate governance either.


Obviously, biases and prejudices are hard to overcome but generally are not helpful, and often harmful, for making good investment decisions. I'm not aware the corporate governance or charges of Smithson IT have changed adversely recently, so can't understand why that forms part of your reason for selling now.

Dod101 wrote:I hold Scottish Mortgage and will continue to do so, for two reasons, one its charges are very low and secondly I took a lot out of it during its meteoric rise a couple of years ago. That is my only reason for buying out and out growth shares, and I made the mistake of not doing the same with Smithson.

Incidentally Smithson does not pay a dividend; Scottish Mortgage pays a very small one, partly from capital. I do not buy growth shares for the dividend though.

Dod

Again, you are displaying a bias because you have done well from Scottish Mortgage in the past. However, that doesn't mean it will do so well in the future, and I believe the long-term fund manager has retired recently, which is often not a positive sign for future performance. And in fact it has significantly underperformed Smithson in the past year.


As far as Scottish Mortgage is concerned we should not be discussing it on this Board, I guess, but the difference between it and Smithson is that I doubt very much that its performance depended on the recently retired James Anderson. Tom Slater who has assumed the role as manager, is very much from the same mould and in any case they have the entire team from the long established and successful Baillie Gifford behind them. As I said, that coupled with low charges and good corporate governance gives me confidence that I can just leave my investment there.

I knew when I invested about the high charges from Smithson but I had not really focussed on their corporate governance. So I missed a much bigger profit but I am still out with 27% or so which is better than a kick in the teeth. I hope current holders do well and I will watch with interest, but with no regrets whatever happens.

Dod

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#500942

Postby BullDog » May 17th, 2022, 11:45 am

Perked up a little today for a change. With the discount to NAV at almost unheard of levels and SSON discount control policy, I think presently is a decent buying opportunity on a medium term view. Those holding SSON should benefit somewhat from SSON buying stock at a significant discount and selling the underlying investments into the market. The one thing I never liked at SSON is Fevertree, but I can live with it.

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#500951

Postby Dod101 » May 17th, 2022, 12:06 pm

BullDog wrote:Perked up a little today for a change. With the discount to NAV at almost unheard of levels and SSON discount control policy, I think presently is a decent buying opportunity on a medium term view. Those holding SSON should benefit somewhat from SSON buying stock at a significant discount and selling the underlying investments into the market. The one thing I never liked at SSON is Fevertree, but I can live with it.


I have no idea of the reliability of the discount because we do not really know whether the NAV is reasonable or not. I am glad to be out of it. I would have no concerns about individual underlying holdings. That is what you pay the managers (and how in the case of Smithson!) for.

Dod

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#500956

Postby simoan » May 17th, 2022, 12:24 pm

Dod101 wrote:I have no idea of the reliability of the discount because we do not really know whether the NAV is reasonable or not.

Dod

I'm not sure what you mean by this? The NAV is declared every morning in a RNS for all to see. FYI This mornings NAV = £14.08. All of the holdings are fully listed $1Bn dollar plus companies, so the NAV is easy to calculate once you account for currency exchange rates. Smithson doesn't hold any dodgy unlisted companies like some other trusts. I bought some more yesterday having quickly looked again at all the current holdings. Apart from Sabre all of the them are very high quality profitable companies with excellent gross margins. Many were overpriced but are looking a lot more reasonably valued now. I plan to double my holding in SSON over the next 6-12 months.
Last edited by simoan on May 17th, 2022, 12:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#500960

Postby BullDog » May 17th, 2022, 12:30 pm

simoan wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I have no idea of the reliability of the discount because we do not really know whether the NAV is reasonable or not.

Dod

I'm not sure what you mean by this? The NAV is declared every morning in a RNS for all to see. All of the holdings are fully listed $1Bn dollar plus companies, so the NAV is easy to calculate once you account for currency exchange rates. Smithson doesn't hold any dodgy unlisted companies like some other trusts. I bought some more yesterday having quickly looked again at all the current holdings. Apart from Sabre all of the them are very high quality profitable companies with excellent gross margins. Many were overpriced but are looking a lot more reasonably valued now. I plan to double my holding in SSON over the next 6-12 months.

I would be very tempted to as well. But I already have too big a proportion. Eggs and baskets and all that.......

I have to say, I know nothing about the Sabre company. Some of the good quality SSON holdings like Spirax Sarco, Ansys etc... I am quite familiar with, but not Sabre.

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#500968

Postby simoan » May 17th, 2022, 12:50 pm

BullDog wrote:
simoan wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I have no idea of the reliability of the discount because we do not really know whether the NAV is reasonable or not.

Dod

I'm not sure what you mean by this? The NAV is declared every morning in a RNS for all to see. All of the holdings are fully listed $1Bn dollar plus companies, so the NAV is easy to calculate once you account for currency exchange rates. Smithson doesn't hold any dodgy unlisted companies like some other trusts. I bought some more yesterday having quickly looked again at all the current holdings. Apart from Sabre all of the them are very high quality profitable companies with excellent gross margins. Many were overpriced but are looking a lot more reasonably valued now. I plan to double my holding in SSON over the next 6-12 months.

I would be very tempted to as well. But I already have too big a proportion. Eggs and baskets and all that.......

I have to say, I know nothing about the Sabre company. Some of the good quality SSON holdings like Spirax Sarco, Ansys etc... I am quite familiar with, but not Sabre.

Sabre is in the same business as the Spanish company Amadeus (held by the main Fundsmith Equity Fund). It provides software for travel booking so was very badly effected by the pandemic. Rather than sell, Smithson doubled down I believe at $3 and it is now one of the largest holdings. It should do well as travel returns to normal but profits were down 90% and the balance sheet took a hit.

BTW the video of the AGM held on 3rd May is now up on the website: https://www.smithson.co.uk/tv
All the best, Si

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#501144

Postby Fluke » May 18th, 2022, 8:03 am

Dod101 wrote:
I knew when I invested about the high charges from Smithson but I had not really focussed on their corporate governance. So I missed a much bigger profit but I am still out with 27% or so which is better than a kick in the teeth. I hope current holders do well and I will watch with interest, but with no regrets whatever happens.

Dod


What is it you don't like about their corporate governance Dod?

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#501148

Postby Dod101 » May 18th, 2022, 8:28 am

Fluke wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
I knew when I invested about the high charges from Smithson but I had not really focussed on their corporate governance. So I missed a much bigger profit but I am still out with 27% or so which is better than a kick in the teeth. I hope current holders do well and I will watch with interest, but with no regrets whatever happens.

Dod


What is it you don't like about their corporate governance Dod?


In my opening post I mentioned the very high charges and the fact that the trust has but three directors. I doubt very much that they have much say in the running of the trust and are simply going through the motions. I appreciate that we can say that about a number of trusts but this trust is very much a Terry Smith production and I simply do not like that.

Before anyone brings it up I do not think that happens with say the Baillie Gifford trusts. BG is a very large organisation and although 'their' trusts, such as Scottish Mortgage and Monks, say have nominated managers, it is evident if you read their literature that these managers are participants in much wider committees so as to bounce ideas off each other.

Anyway, it is up to all of us to do what we feel best.

Dod

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#501163

Postby Arborbridge » May 18th, 2022, 8:57 am

Dod101 wrote:I would not like to be associated with short termism. Of my 30 shares, including ITs I have held 10 of them for at least 25 years and two or three for 30 years. Caledonia for instance is still held in certificated form and I of course hold the original contract note dated 10 June 1992. The holding has not been touched in that period and neither have there been any corporate events as far as the shares are concerned so I still have the original 1000 shares that I bought on that day. HSBC goes back even longer. I have held them one way or another since 29 April 1991.

I am simply thinking about Smithson as I do with all of my shares. Now that there is a decent profit in the holding I can take a look critically at the corporate governance and I was discussing what I see as the shortfalls in that. As I commented, like most growth funds, they have rather stalled for the moment, that is all.

Dod


I inderstand your misgivings, but the management fee regime has always been the same. If it is of concern now, it is only because the performance has dipped - you were happy enough previously. Personallt, I would give it more time, Indeed, I was thinking of becoming a first time buyer into SSON becuase it had fallen so much.

As others have said, the companies within are all still good choices, and the directors presumably are using the same criteria which they used previously. All that's happened is a change in market sentiment, so it's a period we should just work through.

Arb.

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#501167

Postby BullDog » May 18th, 2022, 9:03 am

Arborbridge wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I would not like to be associated with short termism. Of my 30 shares, including ITs I have held 10 of them for at least 25 years and two or three for 30 years. Caledonia for instance is still held in certificated form and I of course hold the original contract note dated 10 June 1992. The holding has not been touched in that period and neither have there been any corporate events as far as the shares are concerned so I still have the original 1000 shares that I bought on that day. HSBC goes back even longer. I have held them one way or another since 29 April 1991.

I am simply thinking about Smithson as I do with all of my shares. Now that there is a decent profit in the holding I can take a look critically at the corporate governance and I was discussing what I see as the shortfalls in that. As I commented, like most growth funds, they have rather stalled for the moment, that is all.

Dod


I inderstand your misgivings, but the management fee regime has always been the same. If it is of concern now, it is only because the performance has dipped - you were happy enough previously. Personallt, I would give it more time, Indeed, I was thinking of becoming a first time buyer into SSON becuase it had fallen so much.

As others have said, the companies within are all still good choices, and the directors presumably are using the same criteria which they used previously. All that's happened is a change in market sentiment, so it's a period we should just work through.

Arb.

Agree 100%. Whilst I am naturally disappointed that my £10 shares that were £20 are today about £13, I see more upside than downside on a five year time frame. Nobody should be buying SSON on a lesser time scale would be my view.

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#501197

Postby Fluke » May 18th, 2022, 10:39 am

Dod101 wrote:
Fluke wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
I knew when I invested about the high charges from Smithson but I had not really focussed on their corporate governance. So I missed a much bigger profit but I am still out with 27% or so which is better than a kick in the teeth. I hope current holders do well and I will watch with interest, but with no regrets whatever happens.

Dod


What is it you don't like about their corporate governance Dod?


In my opening post I mentioned the very high charges and the fact that the trust has but three directors. I doubt very much that they have much say in the running of the trust and are simply going through the motions. I appreciate that we can say that about a number of trusts but this trust is very much a Terry Smith production and I simply do not like that.

Before anyone brings it up I do not think that happens with say the Baillie Gifford trusts. BG is a very large organisation and although 'their' trusts, such as Scottish Mortgage and Monks, say have nominated managers, it is evident if you read their literature that these managers are participants in much wider committees so as to bounce ideas off each other.

Anyway, it is up to all of us to do what we feel best.

Dod


Yes I thought you probably did explain it Dod, just couldn't see it. I have little experience of other trusts and how they operate so was interested to know what your reservations were. The only other fund I hold is Fundsmith and it is very much Terry Smith's involvement that led me to buy Smithson at IPO and I topped up a couple of times since. I'm still in profit and considering another top up.

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#501209

Postby Dod101 » May 18th, 2022, 11:00 am

Fluke wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
Fluke wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
I knew when I invested about the high charges from Smithson but I had not really focussed on their corporate governance. So I missed a much bigger profit but I am still out with 27% or so which is better than a kick in the teeth. I hope current holders do well and I will watch with interest, but with no regrets whatever happens.

Dod


What is it you don't like about their corporate governance Dod?


In my opening post I mentioned the very high charges and the fact that the trust has but three directors. I doubt very much that they have much say in the running of the trust and are simply going through the motions. I appreciate that we can say that about a number of trusts but this trust is very much a Terry Smith production and I simply do not like that.

Before anyone brings it up I do not think that happens with say the Baillie Gifford trusts. BG is a very large organisation and although 'their' trusts, such as Scottish Mortgage and Monks, say have nominated managers, it is evident if you read their literature that these managers are participants in much wider committees so as to bounce ideas off each other.

Anyway, it is up to all of us to do what we feel best.

Dod


Yes I thought you probably did explain it Dod, just couldn't see it. I have little experience of other trusts and how they operate so was interested to know what your reservations were. The only other fund I hold is Fundsmith and it is very much Terry Smith's involvement that led me to buy Smithson at IPO and I topped up a couple of times since. I'm still in profit and considering another top up.


In recent years, many trust Boards have shown much greater independence than they used to, by sacking managers and finding news ones, negotiating reductions in fees charged, agreeing changes to the manager's mandates and so on. Even a Witan trust, Witan Pacific, not only changed manager but then adopted the name of Baillie Gifford China. That would have been unheard of a few years ago. None of that is likely to happen with Smithson (or Fundsmith for that matter). It may not matter but it is not healthy I think to nail only the colours of Terry Smith to your mast. We have in recent years seen where reliance on one rather egocentric manager can lead.

Dod

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#501222

Postby Arborbridge » May 18th, 2022, 11:23 am

Dod101 wrote:In recent years, many trust Boards have shown much greater independence than they used to, by sacking managers and finding news ones, negotiating reductions in fees charged, agreeing changes to the manager's mandates and so on. Even a Witan trust, Witan Pacific, not only changed manager but then adopted the name of Baillie Gifford China. That would have been unheard of a few years ago. None of that is likely to happen with Smithson (or Fundsmith for that matter). It may not matter but it is not healthy I think to nail only the colours of Terry Smith to your mast. We have in recent years seen where reliance on one rather egocentric manager can lead.

Dod


In which case, I wonder why you invested in the first place! High fees, star manager - doesn't sound like your thing at all ;)

I suspect the answer is, that like me, you have plenty of other investments if this one proves vulnerable.

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#501227

Postby monabri » May 18th, 2022, 11:38 am

Maybe Smithson need more woke companies in their portfolio.?. :twisted: Hold the Mayo, it has feelings.


All graphs courtesy of Hargreaves Lansdown
https://www.hl.co.uk/funds/fund-discoun ... ion/charts

Image

(Yes it's a 6m timescale!, I know).

The 5 year view....

Image

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#501235

Postby Dod101 » May 18th, 2022, 11:55 am

Arborbridge wrote:
Dod101 wrote:In recent years, many trust Boards have shown much greater independence than they used to, by sacking managers and finding news ones, negotiating reductions in fees charged, agreeing changes to the manager's mandates and so on. Even a Witan trust, Witan Pacific, not only changed manager but then adopted the name of Baillie Gifford China. That would have been unheard of a few years ago. None of that is likely to happen with Smithson (or Fundsmith for that matter). It may not matter but it is not healthy I think to nail only the colours of Terry Smith to your mast. We have in recent years seen where reliance on one rather egocentric manager can lead.

Dod


In which case, I wonder why you invested in the first place! High fees, star manager - doesn't sound like your thing at all ;)

I suspect the answer is, that like me, you have plenty of other investments if this one proves vulnerable.


Well of course as is well known selling is the difficult bit. I sold some Scottish Mortgage on five occasions on its way from around £6 up to just over £14, but it was and remains a big holding. I hold it and held Smithson for only one reason and that is a capital gain. SMT is a big well known and well managed trust and I know Baillie Gifford pretty well. I cannot say the same of Smithson and in any case I am not sure that small companies, however good they are on paper, are going to do much in the near future. I should have sold when I started this thread in March but allowed myself to be influenced by the subsequent comments. I suppose I invested in the first place for FOMO.

Dod

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#501250

Postby OhNoNotimAgain » May 18th, 2022, 12:25 pm

Dod101 wrote:. and I know Baillie Gifford pretty well.

Dod


What does that actually mean?

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#501264

Postby Dod101 » May 18th, 2022, 1:21 pm

OhNoNotimAgain wrote:
Dod101 wrote:. and I know Baillie Gifford pretty well.

Dod


What does that actually mean?


That means that I know it to be a private unlimited partnership for one thing. I have not heard of any others in the UK. People may not think that that matters but it does because it means that the equity partners are going to be quite sure that they have all checks and balances in place that they can think of, they do not need to worry about their own bottom line and their next quarterly figures, and can think really long term.

It is a large company, has been established for over 100 years and has no 'star' managers. They have depth of management, and managers of individual ITs or funds have a lot of backup and input from other parts of the business.

Is that enough?

Dod

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#501314

Postby Arborbridge » May 18th, 2022, 3:15 pm

Dod101 wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:
Dod101 wrote:In recent years, many trust Boards have shown much greater independence than they used to, by sacking managers and finding news ones, negotiating reductions in fees charged, agreeing changes to the manager's mandates and so on. Even a Witan trust, Witan Pacific, not only changed manager but then adopted the name of Baillie Gifford China. That would have been unheard of a few years ago. None of that is likely to happen with Smithson (or Fundsmith for that matter). It may not matter but it is not healthy I think to nail only the colours of Terry Smith to your mast. We have in recent years seen where reliance on one rather egocentric manager can lead.

Dod


In which case, I wonder why you invested in the first place! High fees, star manager - doesn't sound like your thing at all ;)

I suspect the answer is, that like me, you have plenty of other investments if this one proves vulnerable.


Well of course as is well known selling is the difficult bit. I sold some Scottish Mortgage on five occasions on its way from around £6 up to just over £14, but it was and remains a big holding. I hold it and held Smithson for only one reason and that is a capital gain. SMT is a big well known and well managed trust and I know Baillie Gifford pretty well. I cannot say the same of Smithson and in any case I am not sure that small companies, however good they are on paper, are going to do much in the near future. I should have sold when I started this thread in March but allowed myself to be influenced by the subsequent comments. I suppose I invested in the first place for FOMO.

Dod


Actually, you've just triggered the thought that I might better off putting spare cash in the way of SMT rather than SSON. At least there's a longer track record, though my thoughts on SSON have been "preconditioned" by my holding in Fundsmith equity, which has been advancing very well for several years.

This all, one might observe, goes against my usual trend on investing for income - but I do keep other irons in the fire too.

Arb.

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#501320

Postby Dod101 » May 18th, 2022, 3:24 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:
Dod101 wrote:In recent years, many trust Boards have shown much greater independence than they used to, by sacking managers and finding news ones, negotiating reductions in fees charged, agreeing changes to the manager's mandates and so on. Even a Witan trust, Witan Pacific, not only changed manager but then adopted the name of Baillie Gifford China. That would have been unheard of a few years ago. None of that is likely to happen with Smithson (or Fundsmith for that matter). It may not matter but it is not healthy I think to nail only the colours of Terry Smith to your mast. We have in recent years seen where reliance on one rather egocentric manager can lead.

Dod


In which case, I wonder why you invested in the first place! High fees, star manager - doesn't sound like your thing at all ;)

I suspect the answer is, that like me, you have plenty of other investments if this one proves vulnerable.


Well of course as is well known selling is the difficult bit. I sold some Scottish Mortgage on five occasions on its way from around £6 up to just over £14, but it was and remains a big holding. I hold it and held Smithson for only one reason and that is a capital gain. SMT is a big well known and well managed trust and I know Baillie Gifford pretty well. I cannot say the same of Smithson and in any case I am not sure that small companies, however good they are on paper, are going to do much in the near future. I should have sold when I started this thread in March but allowed myself to be influenced by the subsequent comments. I suppose I invested in the first place for FOMO.

Dod


Actually, you've just triggered the thought that I might better off putting spare cash in the way of SMT rather than SSON. At least there's a longer track record, though my thoughts on SSON have been "preconditioned" by my holding in Fundsmith equity, which has been advancing very well for several years.

This all, one might observe, goes against my usual trend on investing for income - but I do keep other irons in the fire too.

Arb.


This is not advice, just facts! You could also think about Monks from the same stable, and a little more conservative than SMT.

Dod

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Re: Smithson Annual Report

#501447

Postby Arborbridge » May 19th, 2022, 7:36 am

Dod101 wrote:
This is not advice, just facts! You could also think about Monks from the same stable, and a little more conservative than SMT.

Dod


Agreed - we don't give advice! My wife has a healthy dose of Monks, and adds on dips.

On a wider note, my daughter has started investing in a global ETF, and I was pleased she had the courage to invest a little more when the market was hit a while back. My advice not to panic about her price falling from previously, but invest, was listened too: I just hope it wasn't too early!


Arb.


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