Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34, for Donating to support the site

City of London - is it worth it?

Closed-end funds and OEICs
CryptoPlankton
Lemon Slice
Posts: 786
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:12 pm
Has thanked: 1544 times
Been thanked: 873 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#150575

Postby CryptoPlankton » July 6th, 2018, 4:51 pm

FredBloggs wrote:Long term, we're all dead. Make as much money as you can while you can. Go against the crowd as required or if you feel more comfortable having peer approval behind you, go right ahead and buy City of London. Get that warm fuzzy feeling.

If, as you point out, we're all dead in the long term, what is the point in busting a gut to "make as much money as you can while you can"? It is, after all, only money and if you can generate as much as you need to live the life you want simply, with minimal risk and stress (perhaps by investing in the likes of CTY), then why wouldn't you? Nothing wrong with deriving a warm fuzzy feeling from being in that position (not sure where peer approval comes into it?).

Dod101
The full Lemon
Posts: 16629
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 4343 times
Been thanked: 7534 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#150579

Postby Dod101 » July 6th, 2018, 5:40 pm

CryptoPlankton wrote:
FredBloggs wrote:Long term, we're all dead. Make as much money as you can while you can. Go against the crowd as required or if you feel more comfortable having peer approval behind you, go right ahead and buy City of London. Get that warm fuzzy feeling.

If, as you point out, we're all dead in the long term, what is the point in busting a gut to "make as much money as you can while you can"? It is, after all, only money and if you can generate as much as you need to live the life you want simply, with minimal risk and stress (perhaps by investing in the likes of CTY), then why wouldn't you? Nothing wrong with deriving a warm fuzzy feeling from being in that position (not sure where peer approval comes into it?).


I lean further in this direction than Fred's. The point about peer approval I think is that I as I have said many times there is no safety in numbers and yet the number of times I see a comment like 'XYZ is looking good. Any one thinking of taking a punt/nibble/whatever?' A bit like the pure unthinking HYPer, there seem to be a lot of people who love City of London and so the sort of person who asks my question is likely to say' Hey there must be something in this, let's have a slice as well'.

There is a time in one's investing career when busting a gut to make as much money as you can is sensible and one of the problems of this sort of Board is that we do not have a profile which tells us where in an investing career we all are. I am past the stage of worrying too much about making a lot more money and prefer the problem of spending it. There might even come a time when I will either voluntarily or otherwise give up managing my portfolio as closely as I do and so the likes of City of London would be a good proxy. Currently though it gives me nothing that I cannot do myself and it is for widows, orphans and those in their dotage I think.

To comment on the other point about fivers, the Income Fiver gives you the income without needing to think about timing or anything else. If you are living off your investments as I am (except for the State Pension) it is very comforting to have a week like I have just had with dividends rolling in on most days without my having to do anything. I almost never have any debts (not even a credit card except if I go on an expensive trip) and so this sort of week puts me well in credit. I like that and thus I like the Income Fiver!

Dod

CryptoPlankton
Lemon Slice
Posts: 786
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:12 pm
Has thanked: 1544 times
Been thanked: 873 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#150660

Postby CryptoPlankton » July 7th, 2018, 3:34 am

CryptoPlankton wrote:
FredBloggs wrote:Long term, we're all dead. Make as much money as you can while you can. Go against the crowd as required or if you feel more comfortable having peer approval behind you, go right ahead and buy City of London. Get that warm fuzzy feeling.

If, as you point out, we're all dead in the long term, what is the point in busting a gut to "make as much money as you can while you can"? It is, after all, only money and if you can generate as much as you need to live the life you want simply, with minimal risk and stress (perhaps by investing in the likes of CTY), then why wouldn't you? Nothing wrong with deriving a warm fuzzy feeling from being in that position (not sure where peer approval comes into it?).


Dod101 wrote:I lean further in this direction than Fred's. The point about peer approval I think is that I as I have said many times there is no safety in numbers and yet the number of times I see a comment like 'XYZ is looking good. Any one thinking of taking a punt/nibble/whatever?' A bit like the pure unthinking HYPer, there seem to be a lot of people who love City of London and so the sort of person who asks my question is likely to say' Hey there must be something in this, let's have a slice as well'.

Yes you have said it many times, and I don't necessarily disagree (though I wouldn't be so disparaging as to call anyone a "pure unthinking HYPer"!), but what is its relevance to this thread? The OP had assessed the five year performance of CTY v a FTSE all share tracker, and simply asked other people's opinion, given their similar outcomes. That is a far cry from "XYZ is looking good. Any one thinking of taking a punt/nibble/whatever?" And, as far as I can see, nobody else on the thread has contributed anything along those lines so why has it come up yet again? But anyway, isn't it just possible that "there seem to be a lot of people who love City of London" simply because it has a solid long term record, especially for increasing its dividends?

However, my main reason for posting was that it struck me as presumptuous (and quite condescending) to suggest that anyone investing in CTY (that doesn't include me, btw) is seeking the "warm fuzzy feeling" of having peer approval behind them. And it certainly doesn't add anything meaningful to a case against investing in it, so why say it?

Dod101 wrote:There is a time in one's investing career when busting a gut to make as much money as you can is sensible...


Possibly, depending on your circumstances, but that isn't quite the same as "make as much money as you can while you can" - and my point was that you only have to make as much money as you can while you need to. Some people may chose to continue to actively try to maximise their returns and others may be content to be more passive. There is no right or wrong and we should all accept and respect that other people have different motives and priorities.

Dod101 wrote:...and one of the problems of this sort of Board is that we do not have a profile which tells us where in an investing career we all are. I am past the stage of worrying too much about making a lot more money and prefer the problem of spending it. There might even come a time when I will either voluntarily or otherwise give up managing my portfolio as closely as I do and so the likes of City of London would be a good proxy.

Exactly, and not everyone develops the interest to spend any more of their time on their investments than they have to so some exposure to CTY may suit them well.

Dod101 wrote:Currently though it gives me nothing that I cannot do myself and it is for widows, orphans and those in their dotage I think.

And, of course, those that don't share your interest (or experience) in investing?

Dod101 wrote:To comment on the other point about fivers, the Income Fiver gives you the income without needing to think about timing or anything else. If you are living off your investments as I am (except for the State Pension) it is very comforting to have a week like I have just had with dividends rolling in on most days without my having to do anything. I almost never have any debts (not even a credit card except if I go on an expensive trip) and so this sort of week puts me well in credit. I like that and thus I like the Income Fiver!


With you on that one.

CryptoPlankton
Lemon Slice
Posts: 786
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:12 pm
Has thanked: 1544 times
Been thanked: 873 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#150661

Postby CryptoPlankton » July 7th, 2018, 3:45 am

FredBloggs wrote:Just to be totally clear and transparent. Bloggs is certainly busting no gut. Neither is he advocating doing so. A few minutes a day keeping an eye on things. Wielding the scalpel occasionally and clicking the buy button every so often. At the moment, between jobs I have more time for this nonsense. But busting guts is not part of the plan. I think having a very concentrated portfolio with only a few holdings is a very big advantage in that respect and outsourcing a large chunk helps there too.

Glad to hear it - busting guts isn't healthy! Hope it continues to go well.

CP

Urbandreamer
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3121
Joined: December 7th, 2016, 9:09 pm
Has thanked: 347 times
Been thanked: 1025 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#150668

Postby Urbandreamer » July 7th, 2018, 7:39 am

CryptoPlankton wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Currently though it gives me nothing that I cannot do myself and it is for widows, orphans and those in their dotage I think.

And, of course, those that don't share your interest (or experience) in investing?


Or indeed those responsible for investing on behalf of another who want to slant the investments (as they see it) in a appropriate manner yet seek to minimise the effort/input.

I bought SMT & CTY (50-50) for my childrens JISA's. SMT for growth and CTY for balast. In the event of a downturn I expect the likes of CTY to do better than an index tracker. SMT would have to scramble, considering its size and highly concentraited portfolio. I also intend to do little in the way of management in future with their JISA's.

FWIW I later bought some CTY for myself. It's only just over 3% of my portfolio, but I wanted to increase my exposure to quality UK companies and saw CTY as the best way that I could achieve that quickly.

Dod101
The full Lemon
Posts: 16629
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 4343 times
Been thanked: 7534 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#150693

Postby Dod101 » July 7th, 2018, 10:46 am

CP

Thanks for obviously reading my effort. The point about peer approval was mentioned by Fred earlier in the thread. Somebody asked about it and I was simply picking up on that. As always these threads tend to wander round the direct subject but this one it seems to me has raised some very interesting points and I am not saying that because of anything I have said!

Dod

Arborbridge
The full Lemon
Posts: 10369
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 3601 times
Been thanked: 5227 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#156507

Postby Arborbridge » August 1st, 2018, 8:54 am

Avantegarde wrote:The City of London investment trust has long been well regarded and popular. Its aim is to outperform the total return (TR) of the FTSE all-share index in the long term. Well, in the medium term it has failed. In the past five years (during which I have been an investor) the TR of the City of London has been 46% while funds tracking the all-share index (such as the vanguard FTSE all share tracker: https://www.share.com/investments/funds ... x-fnd/hrp3) have returned exactly the same amount. I hold it and its annual cost is just 0.08%. City, according to its revamped KIDS document, charges 0.88% each year - a bit over ten times as much as the tracker. Should I simply dump City for the tracker and expect to get the same return in the future for a tenth of the cost?


It depends what stage of your investment life you are at. Young and active with a long future? There are many ways you can achieve growth of your "pot" and you will always find some method fund or scheme which has better go-faster stripes than the ones you already hold: that is the nature of an investor's life.

However, if you are old and wrinkly, and like me living off one's investments, you may have a different perspective. The Vanguard fund mentioned has a yield of around 3%, I believe - I couldn't live off that. CTY gives me roughly 4% yield which means my capital gets more bang for the buck and along with my HYP now yielding 5% and a few other ITs I can live perfectly well. The TR has been quite decent enough - not at all a "dog" - "only" 10.9%pa over the past couple of years, but averaging more than 12.0% pa over five. Yes, you can find much faster growths - but that can vary from epoch to epoch. CTY is a steady grower, and a steady payer - far from being a dog it earns it's place in my basket of investments.
It is sufficient unto the need and I'm not complaining.

Arb.

Arborbridge
The full Lemon
Posts: 10369
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 3601 times
Been thanked: 5227 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#156508

Postby Arborbridge » August 1st, 2018, 8:59 am

By the way, someone mentioned that CTY is at a premium - it is. But can you imagine why CTY is at a premium of 1.8% and Dunedin is at a disount of 11%? CTY is highly prized for it's steady catpial performance and dividend paying ability, whereas Dunedin is the "dog".

If you hope to hold CTY to throw off increasing dividends from here to the day you die, why worry about a small premium?


Arb.

Arborbridge
The full Lemon
Posts: 10369
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 3601 times
Been thanked: 5227 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#156730

Postby Arborbridge » August 2nd, 2018, 12:18 pm

FredBloggs wrote:
City of London - is it worth it?

No. Next question.


Yes, depending on what your needs are ;)

It continues to serve mine very well. I sit in the sun and watch the dividends support my lifestyle. 8-)

Arb.

Arborbridge
The full Lemon
Posts: 10369
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 3601 times
Been thanked: 5227 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#156755

Postby Arborbridge » August 2nd, 2018, 1:19 pm

This subject seems to bring out some zealous behaviour, which I find quite interesting. Fred Bloggs seem to become quite angry with a cynical turn of phrase and I think it may be because he has either be burnt at some stage by a professional manager, or alternatively considers himself a very successgul investor.

In the latter case, it would be instructive to post some ideas about his portfolio and growth over the years. Then we might all learn something instead of concluding he is some sort of idealogue.


Arb.

Dod101
The full Lemon
Posts: 16629
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 4343 times
Been thanked: 7534 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#156777

Postby Dod101 » August 2nd, 2018, 3:02 pm

Arb will not be surprised that I agree with Fred, the only difference is that I will concede that for some, City of London It will suit, such as the original Doris. It is truly a buy and forget IT if you have no other HYP investments. Otherwise you are paying fees for very little.

Dod

nmdhqbc
Lemon Slice
Posts: 634
Joined: March 22nd, 2017, 10:17 am
Has thanked: 112 times
Been thanked: 226 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#156783

Postby nmdhqbc » August 2nd, 2018, 3:28 pm

I can't speak for everyone but for me CTY is my joint 2nd largest holding. But it's not so much that I hold Job Curtis in such high regard but rather the remit of the trust. Steady, diversified and dividend focused. Job has done a stellar job of that but it's not a remit that requires the midas touch. It's a not veering too far from the index approach and as such beats the index but with not too much risk by going too far from it. e.g. when he didn't like oil he spoke of going underweight it rather than holding zero. Shell was still in his top ten. And the charges are quite low so to me it's not going to stray too far from the index and I think the charges reflect that.

So if the CTY lovers are like me I'd say FredBloggs can relax about people worshiping Job Curtis. Maybe they like me just like the trusts remit. It's not a trust where I'm worried about the fund managers eventual retirement.

ReformedCharacter
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3120
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:12 am
Has thanked: 3591 times
Been thanked: 1509 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#156784

Postby ReformedCharacter » August 2nd, 2018, 3:33 pm

Dod101 wrote:Arb will not be surprised that I agree with Fred, the only difference is that I will concede that for some, City of London It will suit, such as the original Doris. It is truly a buy and forget IT if you have no other HYP investments. Otherwise you are paying fees for very little.

Dod

I agree with that; my intention is to leave my (younger) wife with investments that need the minimum of attention. To that end I have 3 ITs with the intention to move - over time - from individual shares to a greater proportion of ITs. CTY is an obvious candidate but when I look at its holdings I have many of them in my portfolio already so it seems that it would likely be a poor move, at least for the time being. But its time may come.

RC

Arborbridge
The full Lemon
Posts: 10369
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 3601 times
Been thanked: 5227 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#156795

Postby Arborbridge » August 2nd, 2018, 4:09 pm

ReformedCharacter wrote:I agree with that; my intention is to leave my (younger) wife with investments that need the minimum of attention. To that end I have 3 ITs with the intention to move - over time - from individual shares to a greater proportion of ITs. CTY is an obvious candidate but when I look at its holdings I have many of them in my portfolio already so it seems that it would likely be a poor move, at least for the time being. But its time may come.

RC


It may not be a poor move at all. One may have the same holdings - UK income funds all fish in the same pond - but the results can be quite different. My HYP may yield 1% more than CTY, for instance, but I'd be hard pushed to match CTY's TR over any period.

And as for trying to turn this into some personality cult around Job Curtis - that's nonsense, at least from my POV. I chose CTY decades ago from its performance and for its remit way before I had even heard the manager's name. Likewise, I couldn't tell you (without considerable thought) who manages IVI or PLI, though I do remember that Woodford managed EDIN at one time and that the new man is call Bennett, or is it Barnett. So the personality thing is all a side show to the real meat of the matter - the end result - which, as I have made clear, suits me perfectly.

Arb.

Dod101
The full Lemon
Posts: 16629
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 4343 times
Been thanked: 7534 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#156796

Postby Dod101 » August 2nd, 2018, 4:12 pm

The Edinburgh manager is now Mark Barnett but you are of course right that they all fish in the same pool. However each manager has his own view on the mix and I can quite see the benefit of a City of London type of IT. Fred tends to make comments for the sake of effect at times :D

Might even take another look at City of London some time!

Dod

Arborbridge
The full Lemon
Posts: 10369
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 3601 times
Been thanked: 5227 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#156816

Postby Arborbridge » August 2nd, 2018, 6:21 pm

Dod101 wrote:The Edinburgh manager is now Mark Barnett but you are of course right that they all fish in the same pool. However each manager has his own view on the mix and I can quite see the benefit of a City of London type of IT. Fred tends to make comments for the sake of effect at times :D

Might even take another look at City of London some time!

Dod


Maybe it would be worth a second look. I note you have MUT, but not longer ago I sold it. The reason was that after many years of seeing its relative performance being less than CTY, I decided to cash out. Fred comments are not helpful since they are not substantiated, and strike me as having some axe to grind against the management of CTY in particular, or maybe just managers in general. As I've mentioned before, anyone can find an IT that has go faster stripes with the benefit of hindsight. CTY will never shoot the lights out (to quote Lootman) but many of us would find its 11% return in the current climate quite acceptable*.
I would suggest that most managers of income ITs actually do a reasonable job, although I'm sure we would like their salaries! But critics always like to complain even if the complaints are unfair.

* average XIRR 13.55% from September 2013, but dropped to 11% recently. MUT averaged 8.42% over the same period, or 6.77% for the whole of my ownership from 2010.
Arb.

Arborbridge
The full Lemon
Posts: 10369
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 3601 times
Been thanked: 5227 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#156817

Postby Arborbridge » August 2nd, 2018, 6:26 pm

FredBloggs wrote:Arb, that's so funny! I refer the honourable gentleman (lady?) to look up some of my other contributions where I do address those questions about successful investment or not. However, it is moot, I have never, and will never pretend to be some kind of guru. Nor, for example, will I sell a tip sheet and then tell people never to listen to anyone about investments. No, what you see is what you get here.

Remember, a decision about buying an investment always has to result in someone having to be a seller. Or there is no trade and no investment. And no point having a forum to discuss or disagree on.


Quite agree with you on the last point. It's not so much about agreeing or otherwise, but I just get the feeling that you have a bit of a "thing" about Job Curtis - or perhaps all managers, since your criticism has some vitriol. And its a subject you've returned to a few times, if I recall rightly.

Some reckon I'm no gentleman, but definitely not a lady :)

scotia
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3561
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:43 pm
Has thanked: 2371 times
Been thanked: 1943 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#156859

Postby scotia » August 2nd, 2018, 11:54 pm

I looked at CTY in a recent re-organisation of my investments, and passed it by. I checked it out using Hargreave Lansdown's charting tool. Over 5 years its total return seemed to match a FTSE All-share tracker, and its 3-year performance was poorer. Over both 3 and 5 years CTY's TR was poorer than a FTSE 250 index tracker. Not much evidence of a Fund Manager adding value.

vrdiver
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2574
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 2:22 am
Has thanked: 552 times
Been thanked: 1212 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#156878

Postby vrdiver » August 3rd, 2018, 8:32 am

FredBloggs wrote:But unfortunately, there are the true believers who will shout you down and pounce on any negative comments about their choice of fund manager.

At the end of the day if you prefer the warm fuzzy feeling of peer approval over real investment out performance, then go right ahead. Carry on. Suggestions of agenda's, some kind of unspecified personality defect or even a reluctance to post substantiated investment returns are, frankly hilarious and detract totally from the point of the thread. Again, carry on. Just get that warm fuzzy feeling from your closet tracker. Curtis is laughing at you. I certainly am, anyway.

Fred,
I've been reading this thread from the sidelines as CTY has interested me. I find it a bit offputting to read comments such as the one I've quoted. Normally your posts are informative and interesting, and I look forward to them, but not this.

To tell other posters "you are laughing at them" when they've posted factual results and an explanation of why they are happy with those results is, to put it mildly, beneath your usual quality of post.

If you have facts that diverge from those posted, I'd be interested to see them, or your interpretation of results, but not this.

Here's to a return to form, asap.

VRD

monabri
Lemon Half
Posts: 8396
Joined: January 7th, 2017, 9:56 am
Has thanked: 1539 times
Been thanked: 3428 times

Re: City of London - is it worth it?

#156914

Postby monabri » August 3rd, 2018, 11:14 am

Using the plotting software on the Hargreaves Lansdown website for CTY, one can compare the performance of share price (not taking into account dividends though) over a 10 year period.

Here's the link for the site (source of data)

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... are-charts

I've posted the comparison of CTY to the FTSE100 and the FTSE250.

The top curve (red) is the FTSE250, the middle curve (blue) is CTY and the lower curve (gold) is the FTSE100.

Image

Thoughts:-

- CTY looks to have been a better bet than the FTSE100 on pure share price increase alone but will also have the added benefit of a higher dividend payout than the FTSE100.


- When it comes to the FTSE250 comparison, it would appear that CTY is "the loser"...however, would the higher yield from CTY have compensated?





[ on the HL page, select "Charts & Performance", then "Add Comparison" followed by "Indices" and select the FTSE100 & FTSE250]


Return to “Investment Trusts and Unit Trusts”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alaric, dundas666 and 14 guests