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Caledonia

Closed-end funds and OEICs
Dod101
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Caledonia

#205278

Postby Dod101 » March 3rd, 2019, 11:00 pm

I read in a recent post that someone thought Caledonia a dog and decided to do some numbers. Over the last 12 months they have returned 10.04% and over the last 4 1/2 years, 37.67%. I do not regard that as a bad return.

The best of my holdings was Scottish Mortgage, at 113.04% over 4 1/2 years and 8.89% over the last year. Good going!

The worst by far was Edinburgh IT, at 0.49% over 4 1/2 years and 1.59% over the last 12 months.

These are capital values and of course on a total return basis, Edinburgh would improve slightly.

By way of explanation, it was 4 1/2 years ago since I changed my PC and did not carry forward previous records. :roll:

If someone can remind me yet again how to install a table from Excel in a TLF post I will be happy to try to post my full table.

Dod

Pendrainllwyn
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Re: Caledonia

#205279

Postby Pendrainllwyn » March 3rd, 2019, 11:14 pm

I have held since last year. I looked into it because of one of your many comments on the trust. It seems like a good buy and forget investment to me.

Pendrainllwyn

Dod101
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Re: Caledonia

#205281

Postby Dod101 » March 3rd, 2019, 11:22 pm

Pendrainllwyn wrote:I have held since last year. I looked into it because of one of your many comments on the trust. It seems like a good buy and forget investment to me.


I hope it performs! I am very nervous about giving recs.

I have held Caledonia for at least 20 years and I like it and its occasional special dividend. The Cayzer family are good at looking after their money.

Dod

Alaric
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Re: Caledonia

#205287

Postby Alaric » March 4th, 2019, 12:23 am

Dod101 wrote:The Cayzer family are good at looking after their money.


Which raises an interesting point. It's not alone amongst ITs in being in part a vehicle for family wealth. But why go public? Is it because the Investment Trust tax concession of CGT only being liable on a sale by the holder is only available if publicly quoted?

Dod101
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Re: Caledonia

#205288

Postby Dod101 » March 4th, 2019, 12:30 am

It is getting a bit late at night for me to understand your point but for Caledonia, like other family trusts, I would think that it is an accident of history. Some were set up as new, others with a public quote.

Dod

Itsallaguess
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Re: Caledonia

#205292

Postby Itsallaguess » March 4th, 2019, 4:47 am

Dod101 wrote:
If someone can remind me yet again how to install a table from Excel in a TLF post I will be happy to try to post my full table.


Hi Dod,

If you use the link below, you'll get to the Lemon Fool Software Repository TableFormat page, which has been set up to help specifically with this -

http://lemonfoolfinancialsoftware.weebly.com/tableformat.html

You then only need to carry out the following steps -

1. Open your Excel spreadsheet

2. In your spreadsheet, select and right-click COPY your tabular data (this places the Excel data onto the PC clipboard)

3. On the above TableFormat web-page, scroll to the bottom and you'll see two empty boxes - in the upper one, right-click and PASTE your clipboard spreadsheet data

4. Above the box where you've PASTED the data, select the TABLE radio-button

5. Select the 'Create Formatted Text' button that you'll see below the box where you've pasted the data

6. You'll now see some pre-formatted data appear in the lower of the two boxes at the bottom of the page.

7. Use your mouse to select anywhere in that lower box, and then carry out a CTRL-A to select all the text in that box, and then a CTRL-C to copy that pre-formatted tabular data to your PC clipboard

8. On the Lemon Fool website, you can use the TEST BOARD (https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=28) to create a dummy post just for testing-purposes, and then PASTE that pre-formatted text into it.

9. Once you're happy with the TEST post, you can post up your tabular data for real on the Lemon Fool board of your choice. The TEST board data is scrubbed fairly regularly, so don't worry about anything left on there.

Hope this helps - let me know if there's any issues with the above process.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Dod101
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Re: Caledonia

#205314

Postby Dod101 » March 4th, 2019, 9:18 am

Alaric wrote:
Which raises an interesting point. It's not alone amongst ITs in being in part a vehicle for family wealth. But why go public? Is it because the Investment Trust tax concession of CGT only being liable on a sale by the holder is only available if publicly quoted?


Rereading your post, I am still not certain of your point but I imagine that the investment trust concessions are only available in a publicly quoted vehicle. The IT concessions are of course well known but amongst the more important one is that it pays no tax on capital gains within the vehicle, in return for which it must distribute at least 85% of its revenue each year.

Caledonia was simply an investment company for many years without being an IT, so I am not sure that has anything to do with it.

The Cayzer shares are mostly held through the Cayzer Trust which is an unquoted entity. I do not know the answer to your question. Sorry.

Dod

Dod101
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Re: Caledonia

#205315

Postby Dod101 » March 4th, 2019, 9:19 am

Thanks IAAG. I will follow these instructions later today and see how I get on.

Dod

StOmer

Re: Caledonia

#205317

Postby StOmer » March 4th, 2019, 9:27 am

Dod101 wrote:I read in a recent post that someone thought Caledonia a dog and decided to do some numbers....Dod

Yes, that was me :-) The point perhaps being forgotten is that until recently Caledonia was in the Global Growth category where it was a serial underperformer. Now that it sits alongside Personal Assets, RIT Capital Partners etc the performance looks less doggy. We can produce all types of figures to prove whatever point we wish to make, over 10yrs Caledonia has produced 236% which places it 4th quartile for Global Growth. Luckily the move to the Flexible Sector has helped it look much better, mind you adding Hansa to that sector has done it even greater favours.
ps. I like family trusts such as this one.

Dod101
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Re: Caledonia

#205335

Postby Dod101 » March 4th, 2019, 10:05 am

Thanks StOmer. I am sorry to be ignorant about this, but I had no idea what sector Caledonia was placed in and do not care. I know what it invests in and I know that its results are good enough for me. I would not regard it as a capital preserver and would certainly not compare it to Personal Assets for instance. Neither would their management I think.

I am though as a result of my numbers thinking seriously about Edinburgh and maybe Temple Bar. Both are more or less UK oriented income trusts so I suppose that it is not surprising that they have not done much on the capital front in the recent past. Temple Bar is seeking to tweak its investment mandate which may help.

Dod

Dod101
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Re: Caledonia

#205361

Postby Dod101 » March 4th, 2019, 11:37 am

Itsallaguess

I can see the principle at work and I think I have no problem with that but when I paste from my clipboard some of the data (which looks fine in the clipboard) has moved left one column and nothing seems to change it. What I am not doing please?

Dod

StOmer

Re: Caledonia

#205363

Postby StOmer » March 4th, 2019, 11:40 am

No apology needed, hopefully we can allow different views here. Temple Bar, Scottish etc have seemingly been 'off the ball' but tats suggest they will have their. I like Caledonia although the narrowing discount has moved it from a hold to a watch for me as it has a history of failing to maintain a narrow discount. I think it was Bloomberg the other day discussing value stocks, there wasn't a lot of support for them but Alastair Mundy at TMPL has had a good year and can be worth following. In the UK Equity Income sector the most recent 'tip' I've seen was for Edinburgh and Troy Income & Growth, another one that has had a bearish stance for a few years now.

MaraMan
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Re: Caledonia

#205451

Postby MaraMan » March 4th, 2019, 4:08 pm

I bought some Caledonia after Dod recommended it sometime ago and have been pleased with its performance. It hasn't hit it out the park like my holdings in Scottish Mortgage, Fundsmith and to some extent Monks, but it has been a steady as she goes performer and I intend to hold for the long term. I too am a fan of family run trusts and hold RCP as well.

MM

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Re: Caledonia

#205475

Postby formoverfunction » March 4th, 2019, 4:57 pm

MaraMan wrote:I bought some Caledonia after Dod recommended it sometime ago and have been pleased with its performance. It hasn't hit it out the park like my holdings in Scottish Mortgage, Fundsmith and to some extent Monks, but it has been a steady as she goes performer and I intend to hold for the long term. I too am a fan of family run trusts and hold RCP as well.

MM


This is slightly off topic, but I'm hoping some might also find it of interest. I used it when I was looking at long term investing strategy, by that I mean buy and hold for decades.

The Global Family Business Index.

The 2019 EY and University of St Gallen Global Family Business Index provides significant insights into the world’s largest family-owned businesses, ranked by revenues. This year we see little change in the geographical distribution of the FB500, although there is a substantive rise in Germany-based firms and a slight reduction in American firms. There is a significant increase in the number of technology firms making the Index.

http://familybusinessindex.com/

Itsallaguess
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Re: Caledonia

#205522

Postby Itsallaguess » March 4th, 2019, 8:57 pm

Dod101 wrote:
Itsallaguess

I can see the principle at work and I think I have no problem with that but when I paste from my clipboard some of the data (which looks fine in the clipboard) has moved left one column and nothing seems to change it. What I am not doing please?


Hi Dod,

I'm not quite clear on where in the process I detailed earlier that things might be going wrong, so I thought it might help if I make a video of the process and let you see if that helps at all?

Take a look here - it's me copying some dummy tabular data from Excel and then using the TableFormat tool to generate the necessary text to post into a test-post -

https://vimeo.com/321327901

All the context-menus that you can see me selecting from are being generated by me right-clicking my mouse in the various moments.

Note that I'm selecting the 'Table' radio button after initially pasting the data into the upper box on the TableFormat tool.

I'd be interested to hear how you get on, and if the above video is helpful at all.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Dod101
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Re: Caledonia

#205580

Postby Dod101 » March 5th, 2019, 7:50 am



This (I hope) is the table I was trying to produce. If this is fine many thanks to Itsallaguess and his patience!

Anyway what I am trying to illustrate is that Caledonia has done well I think over the last 4 1/2 years. Murray International has done very well but the timing was in its favour. As befits a UK oriented income IT, Edinburgh has been abysmal on the capital front, a bit like my own HYP shares.

Dod

StOmer

Re: Caledonia

#205583

Postby StOmer » March 5th, 2019, 8:07 am

The table came out fine, well done. What figures are you showing, is it NAV or price? AIC shows Caledonia as gaining 72% on its price over 5 yrs compared to the tables 37.67% over 4 1/2yrs. I'm still holding it.

Dod101
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Re: Caledonia

#205611

Postby Dod101 » March 5th, 2019, 9:29 am



Sorry. I put in the wrong date in 2014. The above is a correction. I do not have records to hand going back any further.

The numbers are share prices on the basis that that is what we buy/sell at but I take the point that the NAV would also be helpful.

Dod

Pendrainllwyn
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Re: Caledonia

#205624

Postby Pendrainllwyn » March 5th, 2019, 9:53 am

formoverfunction wrote:The 2019 EY and University of St Gallen Global Family Business Index provides significant insights into the world’s largest family-owned businesses, ranked by revenues. This year we see little change in the geographical distribution of the FB500, although there is a substantive rise in Germany-based firms and a slight reduction in American firms. There is a significant increase in the number of technology firms making the Index.

http://familybusinessindex.com/

That's very interesting. Thank you. Of course one has to be careful which family one gets into bed with but, anecdotally, I think family owned businesses tend to be more conservative and take a longer term view.

I see I hold 9 of the FB500 (10 if I include a company that owns more than 50% of one of them) and have thought long and hard at investing in a few others. I will take a look at some of the other names I hadn't heard of. Some serious homework ahead.

Thanks again,
Pendrainllwyn

formoverfunction
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Re: Caledonia

#205631

Postby formoverfunction » March 5th, 2019, 10:08 am

Pendrainllwyn wrote:
formoverfunction wrote:The 2019 EY and University of St Gallen Global Family Business Index provides significant insights into the world’s largest family-owned businesses, ranked by revenues. This year we see little change in the geographical distribution of the FB500, although there is a substantive rise in Germany-based firms and a slight reduction in American firms. There is a significant increase in the number of technology firms making the Index.

http://familybusinessindex.com/

That's very interesting. Thank you. Of course one has to be careful which family one gets into bed with but, anecdotally, I think family owned businesses tend to be more conservative and take a longer term view.

I see I hold 9 of the FB500 (10 if I include a company that owns more than 50% of one of them) and have thought long and hard at investing in a few others. I will take a look at some of the other names I hadn't heard of. Some serious homework ahead.

Thanks again,
Pendrainllwyn


My pleasure. Would love to hear about how you get on with the research.


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