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John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

Closed-end funds and OEICs
TheMotorcycleBoy
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John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215227

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » April 15th, 2019, 4:45 pm

Hi folks,

I'm still umming and ahhing about whether to include this into our portfolio. My rationale is that I'd like to get some exposure to renewable energy investments and this seems to be the easiest way that I can currently think of to achieve that.

In mine and Mel's portfolio we have (so far) tried to combine some income type instruments (e.g. IMB, NG., LGEN, and the odd dodgy bond e.g. PMO1 and IPF1), along with some growth/value companies which we've tried to select having decent profitability and cash richness (e.g. TUNE, AMS, BVXP etc) and with others with both (we think) attributes (e.g. ULVR, DGE, GAW...).

The point I'm trying to make is that we are not looking at JLEN as an addition to a HYP or because we think it will set the world on fire with it's upside. Merely as an attempt to diversify (which may turn out to be a waste of time in our case).

In another thread Richfool replied as follows to an earlier post:
richfool wrote:These (alternative energy trusts) tend to be attractive to those seeking higher dividend yields, with a degree of index-linking. There is also the argument that they are less correlated with equities (in the event of a bear market). Note the use of the word less. I think there is a potential to be affected by government tax changes. The fact that JLEN holds wind, solar and waste disposal provides some diversification within those types of energy sources.

What I wanted to clarify was what is meant by less correlated with equities. Does this imply that this instrument JLEN is not wholly composed of "shares" in companies, but that some of the investment is in bonds/debentures with the composite firms?

Another question I wanted to ask, was whether now is a remotely good time to buy this. I want to say firstly that we have no experience at all of buying ITs, so whilst the current DY at 5.6ish looks o.k. the premium to NAV (about 12.6%) looks to be at a peak, and hence that this is perhaps a shade too pricey right now.

When I looked at the price chart with a 5Y period view selected it does indeed look as if this IT spends most of it's life at a premium to NAV, though right now excessively so.

(And as Richfool alluded earlier:
I bought a couple of years back, when the premium (to NAV) was lower, I think c 5% or 6%, and not long after the Government had reduced their subsidies, so they were somewhat out of favour for a time.
the descent below NAV was perhaps a result in the reduction of subsidies in 2015-2016)

So given that Mel and I are currently trying to build a portfolio (rather than manage a retirement HYP), I'm currently viewing JLEN as maybe an interesting diversifying element, but at today's prices probably something to "just put on the back-burner" and perhaps only to revisit when the markets are looking depressed all round.

All opinions welcome,
thanks Matt

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215243

Postby supremetwo » April 15th, 2019, 5:55 pm

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote: Does this imply that this instrument JLEN is not wholly composed of "shares" in companies, but that some of the investment is in bonds/debentures with the composite firms?
----------------------------------
Another question I wanted to ask, was whether now is a remotely good time to buy this. I want to say firstly that we have no experience at all of buying ITs, so whilst the current DY at 5.6ish looks o.k. the premium to NAV (about 12.6%) looks to be at a peak, and hence that this is perhaps a shade too pricey right now.

None of the above and it is not an IT.

JLEN owns plants directly in onshore wind, PV solar, waste/wastewater processing and anaerobic digestion in the UK and France.
http://jlen.com/portfolio/

Youtube video here:-
https://youtu.be/dVjho03S7oc

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215249

Postby Alaric » April 15th, 2019, 6:29 pm

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:What I wanted to clarify was what is meant by less correlated with equities.


What that is usually taken to mean is that the price of shares in JLEN isn't going to rise or fall in line with prices of shares in general as measured by one of the many indexes such as the FTSE100.

You could probably check this for yourself by comparing a graph of the JLEN historic price with that of an index or share(s) of your choice.

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215251

Postby mickeypops » April 15th, 2019, 6:43 pm

supremetwo wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote: Does this imply that this instrument JLEN is not wholly composed of "shares" in companies, but that some of the investment is in bonds/debentures with the composite firms?
----------------------------------
Another question I wanted to ask, was whether now is a remotely good time to buy this. I want to say firstly that we have no experience at all of buying ITs, so whilst the current DY at 5.6ish looks o.k. the premium to NAV (about 12.6%) looks to be at a peak, and hence that this is perhaps a shade too pricey right now.

None of the above and it is not an IT.

JLEN owns plants directly in onshore wind, PV solar, waste/wastewater processing and anaerobic digestion in the UK and France.
http://jlen.com/portfolio/

Youtube video here:-
https://youtu.be/dVjho03S7oc


JLEN is a member of the Association of Investment Companies - the trade body of the Investment Trust industry. It is in the AIC sector:

Sector Specialist: Infrastructure - Renewable Energy

MP

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215261

Postby richfool » April 15th, 2019, 8:02 pm

Matt,
I think most of your questions have been answered in the earlier posts.

It is an Investment company, (which amounts to an IT) based in Guernsey, so no stamp duty to pay when purchasing. The dividend is paid quarterly, contrary to what the HL factsheet says. Some further information here:

https://citywire.co.uk/funds_insider/in ... undID=3775

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... -group-npv

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215288

Postby supremetwo » April 15th, 2019, 10:34 pm

richfool wrote:Matt,
I think most of your questions have been answered in the earlier posts.

It is an Investment company, (which amounts to an IT) based in Guernsey, so no stamp duty to pay when purchasing. The dividend is paid quarterly, contrary to what the HL factsheet says. Some further information here:

https://citywire.co.uk/funds_insider/in ... undID=3775

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... -group-npv


But don't most ITs own shares in other companies rather than directly investing in their own plants?

I suppose they can buy other companies' shares if they come under the IT umbrella.

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215291

Postby Hariseldon58 » April 15th, 2019, 10:44 pm

Premium is presently quite high, sold my holding this morning for a pleasant turn over six months.

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215296

Postby mc2fool » April 15th, 2019, 11:08 pm

richfool wrote:It is an Investment company, (which amounts to an IT) based in Guernsey,...

Not really, it's sort of the other way round. JLEN is indeed an investment company, but while all investment trusts are investment companies not all investment companies are investment trusts. ITs have to be UK based and obey specific rules.

"Investment company
A closed-ended fund which invests in a diversified portfolio of assets. Investors buy and sell their shares in the investment company on a stock exchange.

Investment trust
An investment company which is based in the UK and which meets certain tax conditions so that it doesn’t pay tax on gains made within the portfolio.
"

https://www.theaic.co.uk/aic/glossary/i?keys=

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215302

Postby Alaric » April 15th, 2019, 11:29 pm

mc2fool wrote:Not really, it's sort of the other way round. JLEN is indeed an investment company, but while all investment trusts are investment companies not all investment companies are investment trusts. ITs have to be UK based and obey specific rules.


Presumably JLEN follows enough of the rules to not give UK investors any specific tax issues. But perhaps as with any "offshore" holding, it's simpler from a tax viewpoint at least to hold it in an ISA or SIPP.

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215307

Postby mc2fool » April 16th, 2019, 2:03 am

Alaric wrote:
mc2fool wrote:Not really, it's sort of the other way round. JLEN is indeed an investment company, but while all investment trusts are investment companies not all investment companies are investment trusts. ITs have to be UK based and obey specific rules.

Presumably JLEN follows enough of the rules to not give UK investors any specific tax issues. But perhaps as with any "offshore" holding, it's simpler from a tax viewpoint at least to hold it in an ISA or SIPP.

The rules to make an IC an IT affect the internal taxation of the company, not that of the investors. The only thing that would is if it didn't have UK reporting or distributor status (although that's not IC or IT specific.)

It's simpler from a tax viewpoint to hold any investment in an ISA or SIPP, :D

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215316

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » April 16th, 2019, 6:52 am

supremetwo wrote:Youtube video here:-
https://youtu.be/dVjho03S7oc

Thanks for this ST. It looks like the main risk behind these types of investment is that (it seems) the cash flows are heavily dependent of subsidies. I'm probably stating the obvious here :lol: but presumably that's saying that the management of JLEN is not necessarily that shrewd and motivated, but just that at the moment they are well positioned to redirect subsidies £££ back to PIs.

What also intrigues me, is the relative profitability of the uses of the feedstock i.e. maize, between use as a biogas source VS human food VS animal food. Without any subsidies of course.

The other thing I'd like to discover more about is the relationship between JLEN and the plants themselves. In the first few minutes one of the presenters described the "assets being acquired", which has me in mind of various private entrepreneurs (presumably assisted by a govt. grant) who are then acquired by JLEN:

mickeypops wrote:JLEN is a member of the Association of Investment Companies - the trade body of the Investment Trust industry. It is in the AIC sector:

Sector Specialist: Infrastructure - Renewable Energy

MP

who then act as an umbrella of sorts.

Still learning,
Matt

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215317

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » April 16th, 2019, 6:54 am

Hariseldon58 wrote:Premium is presently quite high, sold my holding this morning for a pleasant turn over six months.

You are adding weight to my argument that now is not the right time for me to add this.

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215337

Postby mickeypops » April 16th, 2019, 8:49 am

I hold JLEN as part of my IT income portfolio, partly for the 5.8% yield, and partly as a diversifier from other asset types in the portfolio. There are other similar-ish ITs out there: Renewables, Bluefield Solar etc., all doing a decent job for investors.

I suggest a good look at “theaic” website. Also, the John baron portfolios (paywall, but a week’s trial without having to leave credit card details.)

MP

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215340

Postby Alaric » April 16th, 2019, 9:04 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:The other thing I'd like to discover more about is the relationship between JLEN and the plants themselves.


Is it likely that they act as financiers? Someone cones up with an idea for a development and JLEN agree to finance it in exchange for an equity stake.

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215378

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » April 16th, 2019, 12:15 pm

Thanks for the help so far.

Definitely needs more research.

Still kinda wondered about the subsidies/political risk......i.e. won't the govt. get wise and cut the subs so that there's no room for the divis to come off?

I'm not trying to be confrontational, just curious as to why the govt. maintains subs while it's clear that £££ is going off to PIs. Presumably some of you people are familiar with making money in similar scenarios? That is, where there is private and public money going in.

Matt

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215388

Postby supremetwo » April 16th, 2019, 12:42 pm

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:The other thing I'd like to discover more about is the relationship between JLEN and the plants themselves. In the first few minutes one of the presenters described the "assets being acquired", which has me in mind of various private entrepreneurs (presumably assisted by a govt. grant) who are then acquired by JLEN: Still learning,
Matt

Investment process details in this 2018 report - rarely owned less than 100%.

180912-JLEN-Annual-overview-QD.pdf

https://quoteddata.com/research/john-la ... e-through/

Graph on page 19:-
Since launch, JLEN has traded at an average premium of 5.8%. Over the year to the end of August 2018, it has traded between a discount of 0.2% and a premium of 12.1%.

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215394

Postby UncleEbenezer » April 16th, 2019, 12:54 pm

This is a Renewable Infrastructure asset, which is a subset of general Infrastructure assets. All of them trade at premia these days. But what that actual means is not entirely straightforward: rather it means the market is putting a higher value on the assets than the formulae used by the managers.

You might find it helpful to think of it as you would a bond or preference share - which tend to trade at substantial premia these days (at least, where the market has confidence in the issuer). You put a value not on the nominal asset but on the income stream, within a confidence interval representing your view on how you expect the management to perform in sustaining and gradually growing that income.

Also worth noting, Renewable Infrastructure assets periodically raise more money (to acquire more assets). JLEN recently had a placing. Sometimes you get the opportunity to buy at a slightly more favourable price, as in this recent case with a sector peer: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=16737

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215396

Postby supremetwo » April 16th, 2019, 1:05 pm

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:Thanks for the help so far.

Definitely needs more research.

Still kinda wondered about the subsidies/political risk......i.e. won't the govt. get wise and cut the subs so that there's no room for the divis to come off?

I'm not trying to be confrontational, just curious as to why the govt. maintains subs while it's clear that £££ is going off to PIs. Presumably some of you people are familiar with making money in similar scenarios? That is, where there is private and public money going in.
Matt

This has more-diverse infrastructure investment:-
https://www.3i-infrastructure.com/about-us/what-we-do/

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215397

Postby Itsallaguess » April 16th, 2019, 1:11 pm

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
Still kinda wondered about the subsidies/political risk......i.e. won't the govt. get wise and cut the subs so that there's no room for the divis to come off?

I'm not trying to be confrontational, just curious as to why the govt. maintains subs while it's clear that £££ is going off to PIs. Presumably some of you people are familiar with making money in similar scenarios? That is, where there is private and public money going in.


When an endeavour is trying to attract private finance, how much private finance is it likely to attract if any return on that private finance has been removed, do you think?

Itsallaguess

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Re: John Laing Environmental Asset Group JLEN

#215418

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » April 16th, 2019, 2:09 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
Still kinda wondered about the subsidies/political risk......i.e. won't the govt. get wise and cut the subs so that there's no room for the divis to come off?

I'm not trying to be confrontational, just curious as to why the govt. maintains subs while it's clear that £££ is going off to PIs. Presumably some of you people are familiar with making money in similar scenarios? That is, where there is private and public money going in.


When an endeavour is trying to attract private finance, how much private finance is it likely to attract if any return on that private finance has been removed, do you think?

Itsallaguess

Yeah, sure. But if you watch that youtube clip that supremetwo posted, you'll hear that there's a lot of talk of govt. subs too.

I'm just curious as to how dependent the overall cash flows are (and hence div payouts) on these subs.

Matt


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