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Genesis Emerging Markets.

Closed-end funds and OEICs
Parky
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Genesis Emerging Markets.

#263487

Postby Parky » November 11th, 2019, 1:12 pm

This is a £1bn IT which was drawn to my attention by an article in the latest edition of Money Week. A glowing appraisal, quite a good story, annualised return of 11.6% for the last 30 years, discount of 11% and 2% income.
I have never seen Genesis mentioned on this forum, and not heard of it before.
I was wondering if anyone here has any information or comments?

ADrunkenMarcus
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Re: Genesis Emerging Markets.

#263629

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » November 12th, 2019, 7:40 am

From what you said, this sounds interesting!

Best wishes

Mark.

Parky
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Re: Genesis Emerging Markets.

#263652

Postby Parky » November 12th, 2019, 8:51 am

ADrunkenMarcus wrote:From what you said, this sounds interesting!

Best wishes

Mark.


That's what I thought, almost too good to be true. Was it a marketing ploy by a friendly journalist (Max King). He didn't declare whether he had an interest. Maybe there are hidden drawbacks. I am very suspicious about "opportunities" these days.

scotia
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Re: Genesis Emerging Markets.

#263758

Postby scotia » November 12th, 2019, 3:59 pm

I certainly had never heard of it. Looking at its 30th September Fact sheet https://www.genesisemf.com/files/gemf-factsheet/93-august-2019-gemf-factsheet-1/file
It seems to include a lot of very large hi-tech companies in its top ten - e.g Alibaba, Samsung, Taiwan Semiconductor, and Tencent, with 24% of its investments in China. It is domiciled in Guernsey. However under Important Regulatory and Risk Information, it states
This document is issued by Genesis Investment Management, LLP (“Genesis”) which is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority (“FCA”).
Registered office: 21 Grosvenor Place, London SW1X 7HU. Registered in England, number OC306866. A member of the Investment Association.

Over the past 5 years its performance has been far from spectacular. According to Hargreaves Lansdown, the total return over 5 years is 44.8%. This compares poorly with Scottish Mortgage at 124.6%, and Edinburgh Worldwide at 139.33%

mc2fool
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Re: Genesis Emerging Markets.

#263807

Postby mc2fool » November 12th, 2019, 7:08 pm

scotia wrote:Over the past 5 years its performance has been far from spectacular. According to Hargreaves Lansdown, the total return over 5 years is 44.8%. This compares poorly with Scottish Mortgage at 124.6%, and Edinburgh Worldwide at 139.33%

And those compare very poorly with Lindsell Train at 327.3%, Alpha Real at 324.8% and even 3i at 235.6%.

Isn't hindsight wonderful (esp. when you compare apples vs oranges)....

EthicsGradient
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Re: Genesis Emerging Markets.

#263822

Postby EthicsGradient » November 12th, 2019, 8:51 pm

Over 10 years, it's outperformed the XTrackers MSCI Emerging Markets ETF - +94.7% compared to +65.6%. (It looks as though in downturns, it's gone down more - sometimes nearly falling back to level with the ETF - but has in general done better when the ETF was level or slowly rising)

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... are-charts

scotia
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Re: Genesis Emerging Markets.

#263835

Postby scotia » November 12th, 2019, 11:08 pm

mc2fool wrote:
scotia wrote:Over the past 5 years its performance has been far from spectacular. According to Hargreaves Lansdown, the total return over 5 years is 44.8%. This compares poorly with Scottish Mortgage at 124.6%, and Edinburgh Worldwide at 139.33%

And those compare very poorly with Lindsell Train at 327.3%, Alpha Real at 324.8% and even 3i at 235.6%.

Isn't hindsight wonderful (esp. when you compare apples vs oranges)....


Sorry I seem to have rubbed you up the wrong way - I was simply trying to illustrate the returns from other highly regarded large Hi-Tech Investment Trusts, albeit with no specific area restrictions, in comparison to the returns from Genesis. I was not providing advice on any of these products. And of course I could only compare on the basis of past performance. Nor was I attempting to find ITs with even higher returns. I was simply trying to put the modest Genesis returns in context - since they appear to have received a glowing appraisal in Money World.
However my comment remains - over the past 5 years Genesis performance has been far from spectacular. Its total return performance is slightly poorer than an ETF Emerging Markets tracker (I looked at EIMI and VFEM) over that period. Will it return to its higher returns of ten years ago - I don't know. I'm not clear why Money Week gave it a glowing appraisal.
PS If a direct comparison with an managed emerging market fund is desired - have a look at Baillie Gifford Emerging Markets Growth - and no - I am not a Baillie Gifford salesman.

scotia
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Re: Genesis Emerging Markets.

#263840

Postby scotia » November 12th, 2019, 11:48 pm

EthicsGradient wrote:Over 10 years, it's outperformed the XTrackers MSCI Emerging Markets ETF - +94.7% compared to +65.6%. (It looks as though in downturns, it's gone down more - sometimes nearly falling back to level with the ETF - but has in general done better when the ETF was level or slowly rising)
https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... are-charts

The Genesis out performance seems to have peaked in the period from 10 to 5 years ago. In the most recent 5 year period it has followed fairly closely, but for a significant time, slightly below, an emerging market ETF - I checked out EIMI and VFEM. Currently the 5 year total return on all three is around 45%
I had a look at a range of emerging market managed funds, and found that many of them also seemed to closely follow an emerging market tracker. However UBS, Baillie Gifford and JPM have Emerging Market funds with 5 year total returns of 74.85%, 68.4% and 64.44% respectively. I don't claim to have made an exhaustive check, but these results make me wonder what Money World thought was so good about Genesis.

mc2fool
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Re: Genesis Emerging Markets.

#263848

Postby mc2fool » November 13th, 2019, 12:22 am

scotia wrote:
mc2fool wrote:
scotia wrote:Over the past 5 years its performance has been far from spectacular. According to Hargreaves Lansdown, the total return over 5 years is 44.8%. This compares poorly with Scottish Mortgage at 124.6%, and Edinburgh Worldwide at 139.33%

And those compare very poorly with Lindsell Train at 327.3%, Alpha Real at 324.8% and even 3i at 235.6%.

Isn't hindsight wonderful (esp. when you compare apples vs oranges)....

I was simply trying to illustrate the returns from other highly regarded large Hi-Tech Investment Trusts, albeit with no specific area restrictions

But neither Genesis nor Edinburgh Worldwide are hi-tech investment trusts. Edinburgh is a global smaller companies IT (where "smaller" is <$5bn by their definition) with its biggest sector being biotech, http://documents.financialexpress.net/L ... 526589.pdf.

And as for Genesis, well you said it contains "a lot of very large hi-tech companies in its top ten - e.g Alibaba, Samsung, Taiwan Semiconductor, and Tencent" but guess what the top four holdings are of the iShares Emerging Markets ETF (EIMI) that you mentioned. :D

And those other than Samsung are the top three of the Vanguard FTSE Emerging Markets ETF (VFEM) (FTSE doesn't consider S. Korea to be emerging).

So, do you consider EIMI and VFEM to be "hi-tech" ETFs? I suspect not, and in fact neither is Genesis a hi-tech IT, its top 5 sectors are: Financial Services 23.6%, Consumer Defensive 23.2%, Communication Services 16.2%, Technology 12.0%, Consumer Cyclical 10.8%. https://www.theaic.co.uk/companydata/0P ... /portfolio

So, comparing Genesis with Scottish Mortgage and Edinburgh Worldwide really is apples vs oranges vs bananas -- and that's not even considering the regional differences.

scotia wrote:However my comment remains - over the past 5 years Genesis performance has been far from spectacular. Its total return performance is slightly poorer than an ETF Emerging Markets tracker (I looked at EIMI and VFEM) over that period. Will it return to its higher returns of ten years ago - I don't know. I'm not clear why Money Week gave it a glowing appraisal.
PS If a direct comparison with an managed emerging market fund is desired - have a look at Baillie Gifford Emerging Markets Growth - and no - I am not a Baillie Gifford salesman.

Those are much more reasonable comparisons, and according to HL's TR charts Genesis has very slightly beaten EIMI & VFEM over 5 years and beaten them by a notable margin over 3. Yes, the Baillie Gifford fund did a lot better than all of them over 3 & 5, although GSS trounced the lot over the last year (FWIW). https://www.hl.co.uk/funds/fund-discoun ... ive/charts and add GSS, EIMI & VFEM.

BTW, Genesis is new to me too, which is kinda strange 'cos I've stared at the AIC Emerging Markets sector many times over the years, and there it is, right there, which maybe says something in itself.... :?

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Re: Genesis Emerging Markets.

#263850

Postby midgesgalore » November 13th, 2019, 12:42 am

Weird
If you go to the AIC site and filter global Emerging Markets the list of trusts the "Share Type" column for the Genesis EM trusts is the only constituent different from the rest where the rest show "ordinary Share" whilst Genesis show "Participating Pref Share".

https://www.theaic.co.uk/aic/find-compare-investment-companies?sector=Global+Emerging+Markets&name=&region=&manager=&country=&objective=&op=Filter&sort=&form_build_id=form-79ZGx1RvOOBLMgIA0LMx8-uXi3PJ3UMnj5Q9Q40r5pI&form_token=4GSyxW3PkO4mdEdRGLgkFS0jPuIn-aoiynHUBYpV4Go&form_id=aic_data_search_form

At this time of night I am not sure what that implies but it is way different from the rest.

midgesgalore

Parky
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Re: Genesis Emerging Markets.

#263882

Postby Parky » November 13th, 2019, 8:22 am

scotia wrote:I had a look at a range of emerging market managed funds, and found that many of them also seemed to closely follow an emerging market tracker. However UBS, Baillie Gifford and JPM have Emerging Market funds with 5 year total returns of 74.85%, 68.4% and 64.44% respectively. I don't claim to have made an exhaustive check, but these results make me wonder what Money World thought was so good about Genesis.


Thanks everyone for the research and comments. It's clear Genesis is not the wonderful discovery that MoneyWeek (not Money World) implied. However, I will keep an eye on it for a possible purchase one day.

StOmer

Re: Genesis Emerging Markets.

#263891

Postby StOmer » November 13th, 2019, 8:59 am

Genesis may have appeared in MoneyWeek as Emerging Markets are being pushed by commentators at the moment, MoneyWeek have their own suggested IT portfolio which does not hold it https://moneyweek.com/funds/the-moneyweek-portfolio-of-investment-trusts/

Genesis has been around a long time and was possibly a favourite tip a few years ago. The current Genesis article is online at https://moneyweek.com/517651/go-global-with-the-genesis-emerging-markets-trust/

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Re: Genesis Emerging Markets.

#263958

Postby DavidM13 » November 13th, 2019, 1:04 pm

midgesgalore wrote:Weird
If you go to the AIC site and filter global Emerging Markets the list of trusts the "Share Type" column for the Genesis EM trusts is the only constituent different from the rest where the rest show "ordinary Share" whilst Genesis show "Participating Pref Share".

https://www.theaic.co.uk/aic/find-compare-investment-companies?sector=Global+Emerging+Markets&name=&region=&manager=&country=&objective=&op=Filter&sort=&form_build_id=form-79ZGx1RvOOBLMgIA0LMx8-uXi3PJ3UMnj5Q9Q40r5pI&form_token=4GSyxW3PkO4mdEdRGLgkFS0jPuIn-aoiynHUBYpV4Go&form_id=aic_data_search_form

At this time of night I am not sure what that implies but it is way different from the rest.

midgesgalore


Makes no difference that I can think of at all. IT certainly doesn't alter the analytics on the shareclass. It is what the annual report called the share so the data provider just mimicked it.

scotia
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Re: Genesis Emerging Markets.

#263978

Postby scotia » November 13th, 2019, 1:49 pm

Parky wrote:It's clear Genesis is not the wonderful discovery that MoneyWeek (not Money World) implied. However, I will keep an eye on it for a possible purchase one day.

I'm in the same boat.

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Re: Genesis Emerging Markets.

#264002

Postby midgesgalore » November 13th, 2019, 3:04 pm

DavidM13 wrote:
midgesgalore wrote:Weird
If you go to the AIC site and filter global Emerging Markets the list of trusts the "Share Type" column for the Genesis EM trusts is the only constituent different from the rest where the rest show "ordinary Share" whilst Genesis show "Participating Pref Share".

https://www.theaic.co.uk/aic/find-compare-investment-companies?sector=Global+Emerging+Markets&name=&region=&manager=&country=&objective=&op=Filter&sort=&form_build_id=form-79ZGx1RvOOBLMgIA0LMx8-uXi3PJ3UMnj5Q9Q40r5pI&form_token=4GSyxW3PkO4mdEdRGLgkFS0jPuIn-aoiynHUBYpV4Go&form_id=aic_data_search_form

At this time of night I am not sure what that implies but it is way different from the rest.

midgesgalore


Makes no difference that I can think of at all. IT certainly doesn't alter the analytics on the shareclass. It is what the annual report called the share so the data provider just mimicked it.



I wasn't having a go - I just thought it different from the rest. Sorry for any offence and for the record I very much like your site ;)

midgesgalore

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Re: Genesis Emerging Markets.

#264004

Postby DavidM13 » November 13th, 2019, 3:22 pm

midgesgalore wrote:
DavidM13 wrote:
midgesgalore wrote:Weird
If you go to the AIC site and filter global Emerging Markets the list of trusts the "Share Type" column for the Genesis EM trusts is the only constituent different from the rest where the rest show "ordinary Share" whilst Genesis show "Participating Pref Share".

https://www.theaic.co.uk/aic/find-compare-investment-companies?sector=Global+Emerging+Markets&name=&region=&manager=&country=&objective=&op=Filter&sort=&form_build_id=form-79ZGx1RvOOBLMgIA0LMx8-uXi3PJ3UMnj5Q9Q40r5pI&form_token=4GSyxW3PkO4mdEdRGLgkFS0jPuIn-aoiynHUBYpV4Go&form_id=aic_data_search_form

At this time of night I am not sure what that implies but it is way different from the rest.

midgesgalore


Makes no difference that I can think of at all. IT certainly doesn't alter the analytics on the shareclass. It is what the annual report called the share so the data provider just mimicked it.



I wasn't having a go - I just thought it different from the rest. Sorry for any offence and for the record I very much like your site ;)

midgesgalore


Oh, no, no offence was taken I assure you!!! Sorry, I was genuinely trying to be factual. I remember we had that shareclass back when Morningstar Data was actually Fundamental Data Ltd. It had this funny name even then around 2000, we were just good employees creating lots of new identical shareclasses to mirror all the different names the asset managers came up with, little did we know that 20 years later we would get told off about it on the internet! ;)

Bagger46

Re: Genesis Emerging Markets.

#264007

Postby Bagger46 » November 13th, 2019, 3:38 pm

I believe that MCT should be classified as a Participating Pref too, but does not appear to be.

Bagger

PS Not invested in either Genesis or MCT, unlikely to be.


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