IT SIPP Horrific

[ffacoffipawb64]

Totally bewildered with some of these losses. Merchants Trust down pretty much 20% now. Getting a bit silly.

[baldchap]

Getting a bit silly.

Exactly.
I will be topping up IT's on the next cheap trading day. Hold fast.

[jackdaww]

possibly the discount to nav has increased also , magnifying the fall .

[ffacoffipawb64]

Getting a bit silly.

Exactly.
I will be topping up IT's on the next cheap trading day. Hold fast.

Arguably too late to do anything else.

[forrado]

Unless one is a buyer ... STOP LOOKING AT THE PRICES

In the words of the American C&W song ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ5OFbJ6Nyc

BLACK SWAN event this time 'round being spelt Coronavirus ...

https://www.google.com/search?q=black+swan+event&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBGB853GB853&oq=Black+swan&aqs=chrome.1.0l8.8734j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Since Black Monday, 19 October 1987 I've lost count of the number of market meltdowns I've gone through.

[EthicsGradient]

Totally bewildered with some of these losses. Merchants Trust down pretty much 20% now. Getting a bit silly.

It's still above the price of last July (though it had first reached that around 2013). That's not too bad - the FTSE 100 is at its lowest since July 2016.

[barchid]

Do remember MRCH is geared & gearing works both ways !

[SoBo65]

Keep calm, it’s only a loss if you sell and crystallise it....

Agree some of these trusts are clearly oversold, have made a few modest purchases this week, particularly those where premiums have moved to discounts, but intend keeping some powder dry for coming weeks or months....

I am on holiday in Koi Samui Thailand, all is normal in our resort, no masks etc, but from what I read about UK sounds like it is falling apart, particularly Canary Wharf where I work, the reality is probably different, the media love to whip up a story....

Difficult to know the outcome, but read this which put into perspective:

https://www.7im.co.uk/private-client/ne ... rus-update

[OllyDrod]

It's been a tough week watching things slide, but the only thing I've sold are my JP Morgan Indian (JII) shares which I'd already committed to offload as part of a corporate action to buy back at NAV. Considering myself lucky to have locked in the NAV back in January when they announced it, but that's all it was - luck. These sort of sell-offs are exactly the reason I don't try to time the market, try to buy and hold wherever possible, and will tend towards defensive(ish) income over growth most of the time.

Looking at my IT portfolio this morning, almost everything seems to have taken a hit - including the REITs, thematic trusts, bond-focused ITs, emerging markets, etc. Slightly surprised to see all of these moving in the same direction (albeit to varying degrees) and to me that suggests panic has been the main driver this week, rather than (eg) a dispassionate assessment of the impact of the virus on future profits driving an equity sell-off. After some back-of-the-envelope calcs, I appear to be down about 75% as much as the FTSE over the week, which is a crumb of comfort, and perhaps indicates a modicum of success with regard to diversification.

How have others fared?
Has anything held up surprisingly well?
Has anyone spotted any apparent bargains? (falling knife-proof gloves advised...)

I will continue to hold and ride this out, harvesting my divs and possibly lighting up some dry powder should the mood take me. Remember Kipling:

"If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’
...
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!"
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46473/if---

- OllyDrod

[77ss]

.... After some back-of-the-envelope calcs, I appear to be down about 75% as much as the FTSE over the week, which is a crumb of comfort, and perhaps indicates a modicum of success with regard to diversification.

How have others fared?
Has anything held up surprisingly well?
....

As ever, it depends where you start from. Of the 11 ITs I held on 1/1/20, I am down, YTD, about 72% as much as the F100. I can live with that.

No obvious (to me) rhyme or reason about why some have done better than others.

Two have held up rather well. Allianz Tech Trust (down 2%) and BMO Private Equity (down 1%).

[Dod101]

For some reason my ITs are down much more than my directly held shares. I assume it must be because of the US exposure with many of them. Smithson is my worst performer of any of my holdings with a drop of 16% on the week.

Dod

[Alaric]

For some reason my ITs are down much more than my directly held shares

Discounts widening perhaps?

[fca2019]

For some reason my ITs are down much more than my directly held shares.

Same for me. Its cause of gearing. Investment trusts borrow to beat the market when going up, but increases losses in a falling market.

[Spet0789]

For some reason my ITs are down much more than my directly held shares.

Same for me. Its cause of gearing. Investment trusts borrow to beat the market when going up, but increases losses in a falling market.

In some cases (MRCH) that’s true. In others (SSON, FGT), gearing is minimal or zero. Investment trusts can borrow but only some do.

All of those trusts have gone from a premium to a discount. I think that's the biggest factor. ITs tend to be held by retail investors, like us. Unlike (I hope) us, many of those retail investors twitchily overtrade their portfolios, transferring their hard earned to the patient and to their brokers.

[flyer61]

On Smithson they have had the odd particularly bad performer this week....eg Sabre

[SoBo65]

For some reason my ITs are down much more than my directly held shares.

Same for me. Its cause of gearing. Investment trusts borrow to beat the market when going up, but increases losses in a falling market.

In some cases (MRCH) that’s true. In others (SSON, FGT), gearing is minimal or zero. Investment trusts can borrow but only some do.

All of those trusts have gone from a premium to a discount. I think that's the biggest factor. ITs tend to be held by retail investors, like us. Unlike (I hope) us, many of those retail investors twitchily overtrade their portfolios, transferring their hard earned to the patient and to their brokers.

I notice some IT's have been buying back their own shares including FGT & PNL to control the discount.

[Spet0789]

Same for me. Its cause of gearing. Investment trusts borrow to beat the market when going up, but increases losses in a falling market.

In some cases (MRCH) that’s true. In others (SSON, FGT), gearing is minimal or zero. Investment trusts can borrow but only some do.

All of those trusts have gone from a premium to a discount. I think that's the biggest factor. ITs tend to be held by retail investors, like us. Unlike (I hope) us, many of those retail investors twitchily overtrade their portfolios, transferring their hard earned to the patient and to their brokers.

I notice some IT's have been buying back their own shares including FGT & PNL to control the discount.

True. FGT for the first time I can recall. They bought about 70k shares back at NAV-3% from the twitchy. As a long term holder, I’m delighted to see it. Sadly, the fee structure of most ITs acts as a disincentive to this shareholder-friendly behaviour.

[Newroad]

Hi All.

Everything hit, like everyone else, but glad at the margins I moved into (High Yield Bond) Investment Trusts earlier. 50% in the case of the ISA and SIPP, 33% in the case of the kids JISAs. No gains, but fewer losses.

On the equity/bond IT pairs in the various sub-potfolios ...

ISA:
WTAN - hit more than most (unsure why it's worse than ATST ot FCIT below)
HDIV - doing pretty well (NAV considerably higher, so maybe a bounce will come in time unless credit quality really deteriorates)

SIPP:
ATST - hit about par as far as I can tell
IPE - doing OK in context (once again, NAV considerably higher)

JISA(s):
FCIT - hit about par as far as I can tell
CMHY - doing OK in context until Friday, when it had a particularly poor day - no idea why of the specifics (NAV much higher - will be interesting to see what happens on Monday)

Plan to stay invested - maybe rebalance later at some point to restore the percentages if they get (say) 15% plus out of whack.

Regards, Newroad

[Newroad]

PS It's interesting how the cave man brain works - with my perceptions clouded by (very) short term moves. I was sort of right on CMHY, but wrong on (say) WTAN - it's actually no worse that ATST and FCIT recently - actually slightly better.

So, to revise where "recently" is defined roughly as from 20th Feb ...

ISA:
WTAN - down about 14% recently
HDIV - down about 3% recently

SIPP:
ATST - down about 14.5% recently
IPE - down about 7% recently

JISA(s):
FCIT - down about 14.5% recently
CMHY - down about 9.5% recently

Still hoping for a bounce on CMHY in particular and to a lesser extent HDIV and IPE, though in all cases, may have to wait for it.

Regards, Newroad

[jackdaww]

It's been a tough week watching things slide, but the only thing I've sold are my JP Morgan Indian (JII) shares which I'd already committed to offload as part of a corporate action to buy back at NAV. Considering myself lucky to have locked in the NAV back in January when they announced it, but that's all it was - luck. These sort of sell-offs are exactly the reason I don't try to time the market, try to buy and hold wherever possible, and will tend towards defensive(ish) income over growth most of the time.

Looking at my IT portfolio this morning, almost everything seems to have taken a hit - including the REITs, thematic trusts, bond-focused ITs, emerging markets, etc. Slightly surprised to see all of these moving in the same direction (albeit to varying degrees) and to me that suggests panic has been the main driver this week, rather than (eg) a dispassionate assessment of the impact of the virus on future profits driving an equity sell-off. After some back-of-the-envelope calcs, I appear to be down about 75% as much as the FTSE over the week, which is a crumb of comfort, and perhaps indicates a modicum of success with regard to diversification.

How have others fared?
Has anything held up surprisingly well?
Has anyone spotted any apparent bargains? (falling knife-proof gloves advised...)

I will continue to hold and ride this out, harvesting my divs and possibly lighting up some dry powder should the mood take me. Remember Kipling:

"If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’
...
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!"
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46473/if---

- OllyDrod

============================

were all doooooooooooooomed......................