Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators
Thanks to johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34, for Donating to support the site
Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust
-
- The full Lemon
- Posts: 16629
- Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
- Has thanked: 4343 times
- Been thanked: 7534 times
Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust
I am may be missing something but this was comprehensively discussed yesterday on another thread. And there is no need to worry about paywalls, there is an RNS on each website, Perpetual Income and the Murray Income sites. It seems to me that the Perpetual Income shareholders are coming out of this much better than the Murray Income ones (of whom I am one) I have just written to the chairman of Murray Income raising this point.
It seems to me that the Perpetual shareholders are getting an immediate uplift in the value of their assets to around NAV and the opportunity to take that value, partly in cash if they like, and partly in new shares of Murray Income. They are also to get a Special Dividend paying out their Revenue Reserve.
The only incentive for the Murray Income shareholder seems to be a reduction in the ongoing charges and that only because of the increase in the assets, as the management charges are on a reducing scale as the assets rise so that the ongoing charges should reduce from around 0.65% to 0.50%, not insignificant but probably not that noticeable. Murray appears to be intending to issue new shares for the assets at around NAV (what they call FAV) They will be left with a much bigger portfolio and to support it, much lower Revenue Reserves as a proportion of assets, since those that belonged to the Perpetual assets are being handed out to the original Perpetual shareholders.
I think the main beneficiary will be Aberdeen Asset Management.
Dod
It seems to me that the Perpetual shareholders are getting an immediate uplift in the value of their assets to around NAV and the opportunity to take that value, partly in cash if they like, and partly in new shares of Murray Income. They are also to get a Special Dividend paying out their Revenue Reserve.
The only incentive for the Murray Income shareholder seems to be a reduction in the ongoing charges and that only because of the increase in the assets, as the management charges are on a reducing scale as the assets rise so that the ongoing charges should reduce from around 0.65% to 0.50%, not insignificant but probably not that noticeable. Murray appears to be intending to issue new shares for the assets at around NAV (what they call FAV) They will be left with a much bigger portfolio and to support it, much lower Revenue Reserves as a proportion of assets, since those that belonged to the Perpetual assets are being handed out to the original Perpetual shareholders.
I think the main beneficiary will be Aberdeen Asset Management.
Dod
-
- Lemon Quarter
- Posts: 4764
- Joined: November 4th, 2016, 2:24 pm
- Has thanked: 4814 times
- Been thanked: 2083 times
Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust
Moderator Message:
A small group of related threads merged into one. Please don't start a new one. Thanks - Chris.
A small group of related threads merged into one. Please don't start a new one. Thanks - Chris.
-
- The full Lemon
- Posts: 10371
- Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
- Has thanked: 3601 times
- Been thanked: 5229 times
Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust
Well, what an extraordinary turn up! Having owned both, and sold off one of them (MUT) I now find I will become an MUT holder again.
I was amused find that one of the "advantages" mentioned in the RNS, is sometimes also quoted by commentators as a "disadvantage" - namely the larger size of the resulting company. I guess it depends which agenda is being promoted at the time. Having a bigger mass is a doubled edged sword: bigger buying power but less agile.
Arb.
I was amused find that one of the "advantages" mentioned in the RNS, is sometimes also quoted by commentators as a "disadvantage" - namely the larger size of the resulting company. I guess it depends which agenda is being promoted at the time. Having a bigger mass is a doubled edged sword: bigger buying power but less agile.
Arb.
-
- Lemon Quarter
- Posts: 3492
- Joined: November 19th, 2016, 2:02 pm
- Has thanked: 1195 times
- Been thanked: 1280 times
Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust
Arborbridge wrote:Well, what an extraordinary turn up! Having owned both, and sold off one of them (MUT) I now find I will become an MUT holder again.
I was amused find that one of the "advantages" mentioned in the RNS, is sometimes also quoted by commentators as a "disadvantage" - namely the larger size of the resulting company. I guess it depends which agenda is being promoted at the time. Having a bigger mass is a doubled edged sword: bigger buying power but less agile.
Arb.
And being a larger trust usually reduces the spread between buying and selling prices.
-
- The full Lemon
- Posts: 16629
- Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
- Has thanked: 4343 times
- Been thanked: 7534 times
Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust
richfool wrote:Arborbridge wrote:Well, what an extraordinary turn up! Having owned both, and sold off one of them (MUT) I now find I will become an MUT holder again.
I was amused find that one of the "advantages" mentioned in the RNS, is sometimes also quoted by commentators as a "disadvantage" - namely the larger size of the resulting company. I guess it depends which agenda is being promoted at the time. Having a bigger mass is a doubled edged sword: bigger buying power but less agile.
Arb.
And being a larger trust usually reduces the spread between buying and selling prices.
One of the advantages they quote is greater liquidity.
Bigger in this case will reduce the management costs, as I mentioned. Anyway, MUT has been not a bad investment for me and Arb I think is on the right side of this deal.
Dod
-
- 2 Lemon pips
- Posts: 166
- Joined: February 20th, 2020, 9:59 am
- Has thanked: 43 times
- Been thanked: 50 times
Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust
Happy to have held both for about 10 years, MUT been good for both capital and dividend and PLI been better for dividend with a small loss on capital, but overall happy with the outcome.
-
- The full Lemon
- Posts: 16629
- Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
- Has thanked: 4343 times
- Been thanked: 7534 times
Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust
Throwing Edinburgh into the mix. It is I guess about the only other UK Income trust. I have just sold it for all the reasons previously discussed and rather to my surprise have bought back into SSE. I now hold only Temple Bar in the sector and I am waiting to see what they do about a new manager.
Meanwhile if some trust would like to by their assets at NAV I would be very grateful, but not please, Murray Income.
Dod
Meanwhile if some trust would like to by their assets at NAV I would be very grateful, but not please, Murray Income.
Dod
-
- 2 Lemon pips
- Posts: 166
- Joined: February 20th, 2020, 9:59 am
- Has thanked: 43 times
- Been thanked: 50 times
Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust
I also hold EDIN, TMPL and as it happens CTY and will not be panic selling at this time, trusting the managers can and will adjust and adapt to the new situation we find ourselves in.
-
- Lemon Quarter
- Posts: 3492
- Joined: November 19th, 2016, 2:02 pm
- Has thanked: 1195 times
- Been thanked: 1280 times
Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust
I'm somewhat puzzled why Standard Aberdeen run both Murray Income trust and Dunedin Income trust. The holdings of both are very similar. I wonder why they haven't amalgamated before now.
If the prospects for MUT are going to be impaired by the take over of PLI, then perhaps DIG might represent a "leaner machine" with better prospects?
If the prospects for MUT are going to be impaired by the take over of PLI, then perhaps DIG might represent a "leaner machine" with better prospects?
-
- The full Lemon
- Posts: 10371
- Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
- Has thanked: 3601 times
- Been thanked: 5229 times
Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust
richfool wrote:I'm somewhat puzzled why Standard Aberdeen run both Murray Income trust and Dunedin Income trust. The holdings of both are very similar. I wonder why they haven't amalgamated before now.
If the prospects for MUT are going to be impaired by the take over of PLI, then perhaps DIG might represent a "leaner machine" with better prospects?
Dig and MUT are so similar in performance, like you, I'm not sure of the point of having separate ITs. I doubt it will be any more dynamic in the future than it has been it the past. May as well dump it in with the new MUT. After all, if they are crowing about the advantages of scale combining PLI and MUT - wouldn't adding DIG make even more sense?
PS, I suspect personal rivalries may be behind some of these types of decisions: strong men with little empires to defend.
Arb.
-
- 2 Lemon pips
- Posts: 115
- Joined: January 5th, 2017, 1:04 am
- Has thanked: 225 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust
Dod101 wrote:It seems to me that the Perpetual shareholders are getting an immediate uplift in the value of their assets to around NAV and the opportunity to take that value, partly in cash if they like, and partly in new shares of Murray Income. They are also to get a Special Dividend paying out their Revenue Reserve.
Indeed, these were exactly my thoughts. I've been looking at buying PLI for a while because of the discount which FT says is 11.25%:
https://markets.ft.com/data/investment- ... ?s=PLI:LSE
Imagine my surprise when I found out about the terms of the merger with MUT:
https://www.invesco.co.uk/dam/en_GB/doc ... search.pdf
It's meant to be all wrapped up by early next month (subject to shareholder approval). Seems to me that PLI holders get an immediate 11.25% gain.
Looks like an opportunity going begging.
-
- The full Lemon
- Posts: 16629
- Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
- Has thanked: 4343 times
- Been thanked: 7534 times
Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust
richfool wrote:I'm somewhat puzzled why Standard Aberdeen run both Murray Income trust and Dunedin Income trust. The holdings of both are very similar. I wonder why they haven't amalgamated before now.
If the prospects for MUT are going to be impaired by the take over of PLI, then perhaps DIG might represent a "leaner machine" with better prospects?
I doubt that the MUT investors are going to be impaired but they are I think going to get the poorer side of the bargain.
Dod
Return to “Investment Trusts and Unit Trusts”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests