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Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust

Closed-end funds and OEICs
Dod101
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Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust

#329821

Postby Dod101 » July 30th, 2020, 7:25 pm

I am may be missing something but this was comprehensively discussed yesterday on another thread. And there is no need to worry about paywalls, there is an RNS on each website, Perpetual Income and the Murray Income sites. It seems to me that the Perpetual Income shareholders are coming out of this much better than the Murray Income ones (of whom I am one) I have just written to the chairman of Murray Income raising this point.

It seems to me that the Perpetual shareholders are getting an immediate uplift in the value of their assets to around NAV and the opportunity to take that value, partly in cash if they like, and partly in new shares of Murray Income. They are also to get a Special Dividend paying out their Revenue Reserve.

The only incentive for the Murray Income shareholder seems to be a reduction in the ongoing charges and that only because of the increase in the assets, as the management charges are on a reducing scale as the assets rise so that the ongoing charges should reduce from around 0.65% to 0.50%, not insignificant but probably not that noticeable. Murray appears to be intending to issue new shares for the assets at around NAV (what they call FAV) They will be left with a much bigger portfolio and to support it, much lower Revenue Reserves as a proportion of assets, since those that belonged to the Perpetual assets are being handed out to the original Perpetual shareholders.

I think the main beneficiary will be Aberdeen Asset Management.

Dod

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Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust

#329828

Postby csearle » July 30th, 2020, 8:21 pm

Moderator Message:
A small group of related threads merged into one. Please don't start a new one. Thanks - Chris.

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Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust

#329875

Postby Arborbridge » July 31st, 2020, 7:09 am

Well, what an extraordinary turn up! Having owned both, and sold off one of them (MUT) I now find I will become an MUT holder again.

I was amused find that one of the "advantages" mentioned in the RNS, is sometimes also quoted by commentators as a "disadvantage" - namely the larger size of the resulting company. I guess it depends which agenda is being promoted at the time. Having a bigger mass is a doubled edged sword: bigger buying power but less agile.

Arb.

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Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust

#329889

Postby richfool » July 31st, 2020, 8:32 am

Arborbridge wrote:Well, what an extraordinary turn up! Having owned both, and sold off one of them (MUT) I now find I will become an MUT holder again.

I was amused find that one of the "advantages" mentioned in the RNS, is sometimes also quoted by commentators as a "disadvantage" - namely the larger size of the resulting company. I guess it depends which agenda is being promoted at the time. Having a bigger mass is a doubled edged sword: bigger buying power but less agile.

Arb.

And being a larger trust usually reduces the spread between buying and selling prices.

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Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust

#329893

Postby Dod101 » July 31st, 2020, 8:42 am

richfool wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:Well, what an extraordinary turn up! Having owned both, and sold off one of them (MUT) I now find I will become an MUT holder again.

I was amused find that one of the "advantages" mentioned in the RNS, is sometimes also quoted by commentators as a "disadvantage" - namely the larger size of the resulting company. I guess it depends which agenda is being promoted at the time. Having a bigger mass is a doubled edged sword: bigger buying power but less agile.

Arb.

And being a larger trust usually reduces the spread between buying and selling prices.


One of the advantages they quote is greater liquidity.

Bigger in this case will reduce the management costs, as I mentioned. Anyway, MUT has been not a bad investment for me and Arb I think is on the right side of this deal.

Dod

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Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust

#329902

Postby G3lc » July 31st, 2020, 9:44 am

Happy to have held both for about 10 years, MUT been good for both capital and dividend and PLI been better for dividend with a small loss on capital, but overall happy with the outcome.

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Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust

#329906

Postby Dod101 » July 31st, 2020, 10:21 am

Throwing Edinburgh into the mix. It is I guess about the only other UK Income trust. I have just sold it for all the reasons previously discussed and rather to my surprise have bought back into SSE. I now hold only Temple Bar in the sector and I am waiting to see what they do about a new manager.

Meanwhile if some trust would like to by their assets at NAV I would be very grateful, but not please, Murray Income.

Dod

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Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust

#329917

Postby G3lc » July 31st, 2020, 10:59 am

I also hold EDIN, TMPL and as it happens CTY and will not be panic selling at this time, trusting the managers can and will adjust and adapt to the new situation we find ourselves in.

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Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust

#330338

Postby richfool » August 2nd, 2020, 1:15 pm

I'm somewhat puzzled why Standard Aberdeen run both Murray Income trust and Dunedin Income trust. The holdings of both are very similar. I wonder why they haven't amalgamated before now.

If the prospects for MUT are going to be impaired by the take over of PLI, then perhaps DIG might represent a "leaner machine" with better prospects?

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Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust

#330533

Postby Arborbridge » August 3rd, 2020, 11:37 am

richfool wrote:I'm somewhat puzzled why Standard Aberdeen run both Murray Income trust and Dunedin Income trust. The holdings of both are very similar. I wonder why they haven't amalgamated before now.

If the prospects for MUT are going to be impaired by the take over of PLI, then perhaps DIG might represent a "leaner machine" with better prospects?


Dig and MUT are so similar in performance, like you, I'm not sure of the point of having separate ITs. I doubt it will be any more dynamic in the future than it has been it the past. May as well dump it in with the new MUT. After all, if they are crowing about the advantages of scale combining PLI and MUT - wouldn't adding DIG make even more sense?

PS, I suspect personal rivalries may be behind some of these types of decisions: strong men with little empires to defend.
Arb.

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Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust

#334445

Postby sackofspuds » August 19th, 2020, 5:42 pm

Dod101 wrote:It seems to me that the Perpetual shareholders are getting an immediate uplift in the value of their assets to around NAV and the opportunity to take that value, partly in cash if they like, and partly in new shares of Murray Income. They are also to get a Special Dividend paying out their Revenue Reserve.


Indeed, these were exactly my thoughts. I've been looking at buying PLI for a while because of the discount which FT says is 11.25%:
https://markets.ft.com/data/investment- ... ?s=PLI:LSE

Imagine my surprise when I found out about the terms of the merger with MUT:
https://www.invesco.co.uk/dam/en_GB/doc ... search.pdf

It's meant to be all wrapped up by early next month (subject to shareholder approval). Seems to me that PLI holders get an immediate 11.25% gain.

Looks like an opportunity going begging.

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Re: Perpetual Income, Temple Bar, Murray Income Trust

#334449

Postby Dod101 » August 19th, 2020, 5:47 pm

richfool wrote:I'm somewhat puzzled why Standard Aberdeen run both Murray Income trust and Dunedin Income trust. The holdings of both are very similar. I wonder why they haven't amalgamated before now.

If the prospects for MUT are going to be impaired by the take over of PLI, then perhaps DIG might represent a "leaner machine" with better prospects?


I doubt that the MUT investors are going to be impaired but they are I think going to get the poorer side of the bargain.

Dod


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