Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to GSVsowhat,Shelford,Hypster,Wasron,Haoma, for Donating to support the site

Temple Bar

Closed-end funds and OEICs
Dod101
Lemon Half
Posts: 7283
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 1731 times
Been thanked: 3020 times

Re: Temple Bar

#355760

Postby Dod101 » November 12th, 2020, 9:38 am

Arborbridge wrote:
Dod101 wrote:For value to come good (in the UK anyway) it would need a sea change and I see no evidence of that. Many of the FTSE100 shares are bombed out and show no signs of recovery. Temple Bar is still at about a 14% discount to NAV and NAV in this case is the value of the shares of its holdings. Many of the underlying companies are probably themselves selling at well below their enterprise value. Even after the rises in the last two days or so most shares are well below where they are at the beginning of March I think. Before anyone challenges that I have only tested a few!

Contrast that with Baillie Gifford China which is standing at a premium to NAV of around 20% to NAV and they are selling shares in to the market from treasury every day.

Dod


Seems like you've made a good case for buying more TMPL ;)


You could be right but I simply lost patience.

Dod

ReallyVeryFoolish
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1292
Joined: October 5th, 2019, 12:06 pm
Has thanked: 1033 times
Been thanked: 577 times

Re: Temple Bar

#355765

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » November 12th, 2020, 9:52 am

FWIW, Questor is cautiously positive on Temple Bar and negative on Edinburgh today. Questor isn't 100 per cent reliable but in my experience is worth weighing when making decisions this.

RVF

Arborbridge
Lemon Half
Posts: 6165
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 1417 times
Been thanked: 2262 times

Re: Temple Bar

#355768

Postby Arborbridge » November 12th, 2020, 9:56 am

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:FWIW, Questor is cautiously positive on Temple Bar and negative on Edinburgh today. Questor isn't 100 per cent reliable but in my experience is worth weighing when making decisions this.

RVF


It woudl be interesting to compare the two portfolios - I suspect they are similar, but with different complexions.

The trouble for all of those assessing this situation is that both IT managements and portfolios are in a state of rapid flux.

Arb

ReallyVeryFoolish
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1292
Joined: October 5th, 2019, 12:06 pm
Has thanked: 1033 times
Been thanked: 577 times

Re: Temple Bar

#355797

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » November 12th, 2020, 11:00 am

Arborbridge wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:FWIW, Questor is cautiously positive on Temple Bar and negative on Edinburgh today. Questor isn't 100 per cent reliable but in my experience is worth weighing when making decisions this.

RVF


It woudl be interesting to compare the two portfolios - I suspect they are similar, but with different complexions.

The trouble for all of those assessing this situation is that both IT managements and portfolios are in a state of rapid flux.

Arb

I think they are both known unknowns given recent history of the trusts and the market. Questor pointed to the dismal performance of the manager's other IT mandate regarding Edinburgh.

RVF

monabri
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4590
Joined: January 7th, 2017, 9:56 am
Has thanked: 567 times
Been thanked: 1492 times

Re: Temple Bar

#355813

Postby monabri » November 12th, 2020, 11:42 am

Arborbridge wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:FWIW, Questor is cautiously positive on Temple Bar and negative on Edinburgh today. Questor isn't 100 per cent reliable but in my experience is worth weighing when making decisions this.

RVF


It woudl be interesting to compare the two portfolios - I suspect they are similar, but with different complexions.

The trouble for all of those assessing this situation is that both IT managements and portfolios are in a state of rapid flux.

Arb



I'd say EDIN and TMPL are quite different based on their top holding (data from latest available factsheets on HL)


Image



I was hoping to use the Morningstar "X Ray tool" but it appears to not be working (it used to work well, not that long ago!).

Dod101
Lemon Half
Posts: 7283
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 1731 times
Been thanked: 3020 times

Re: Temple Bar

#355818

Postby Dod101 » November 12th, 2020, 11:52 am

Thanks for that monabri.

That list and the other factors with Temple Bar suggest that it might be worth holding. At least it is a bit different whereas Edinburgh seems to be a sort of rehash of where they were. The new managers of TB are unknown to me but that does not make them no good and in fact it might be just what is needed.

Dod

ADrunkenMarcus
Lemon Slice
Posts: 972
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 11:16 am
Has thanked: 345 times
Been thanked: 265 times

Re: Temple Bar

#355976

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » November 12th, 2020, 7:49 pm

I don't hold directly any of TMPL's top holdings.

I do have Unilever and AstraZeneca from EDIN, though - both are in my top five directly held shares in my dividend growth portfolio.

Best wishes

Mark.

torata
Lemon Slice
Posts: 311
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 1:25 am
Has thanked: 108 times
Been thanked: 108 times

Re: Temple Bar

#356036

Postby torata » November 13th, 2020, 6:35 am

monabri wrote:Total Returns over the last 5 years

A comparison of "apples" ... with Vanguard's VUKE as a reference. EDIN being under recent new management..one can see why.

:- CTY's returns are approx the same as VUKE's over the last 5 years.

:- TMPL and EDIN are pretty similar. TMPL was doing "ok" (comparatively) until the start of this year.


A small point, not that it impacts on the graph or your point.
Vanguard's VUKE is the FTSE 100 ETF, not the FTSE U.K. Equity Income Index Fund - Accumulation

torata

Arborbridge
Lemon Half
Posts: 6165
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 1417 times
Been thanked: 2262 times

Re: Temple Bar

#356061

Postby Arborbridge » November 13th, 2020, 8:08 am

monabri wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:
It woudl be interesting to compare the two portfolios - I suspect they are similar, but with different complexions.

The trouble for all of those assessing this situation is that both IT managements and portfolios are in a state of rapid flux.

Arb



I'd say EDIN and TMPL are quite different based on their top holding (data from latest available factsheets on HL)




Thanks for that, not so much crossover after all. TMPL is contrarian, so that probably explains it.
I bought the IT for that very fact - that it gave an alternative approach to the usual suspects. For the first few years of ownership, I would say it showed itself to be a safe, steady if unspectacular pairs of hands. Then all hell was let loose.

Arb.

ADrunkenMarcus
Lemon Slice
Posts: 972
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 11:16 am
Has thanked: 345 times
Been thanked: 265 times

Re: Temple Bar

#356938

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » November 16th, 2020, 10:11 am

Another good opening, up 6 percent or so to 923p. Progress in the right direction. I think TMPL might be one of the strongest performers in my SIPP in the last month or so.

Best wishes

Mark.

monabri
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4590
Joined: January 7th, 2017, 9:56 am
Has thanked: 567 times
Been thanked: 1492 times

Re: Temple Bar

#357680

Postby monabri » November 18th, 2020, 11:53 am

Looks like TMPL has already had a couple of shots from Pfizer and one from Moderna for added good measure......those new managers, eh ( :? )

Sentiment seems to have changed rapidly.

ADrunkenMarcus
Lemon Slice
Posts: 972
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 11:16 am
Has thanked: 345 times
Been thanked: 265 times

Re: Temple Bar

#357782

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » November 18th, 2020, 3:15 pm

monabri wrote:Sentiment seems to have changed rapidly.


The net asset value is currently at c. 951-964p per share (depending on which permutation we use) so it appears TMPL has benefited both from a degree of improvement in the trust's assets but also a narrowing of the discount. It's nice when that happens but, conversely, it did such damage on the way down when we had asset declines and a widening discount!

Best wishes


Mark.

Parky
Lemon Slice
Posts: 290
Joined: June 9th, 2017, 8:51 am
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 73 times

Re: Temple Bar

#358356

Postby Parky » November 20th, 2020, 11:24 am

"The Daily Telegraph (Questor share tips): BUY Temple Bar; BUY Murray International."

Quote from Citywire Friday Papers today. I don't have access to the article.

Laughton
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 230
Joined: November 6th, 2016, 2:15 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 65 times

Re: Temple Bar

#358358

Postby Laughton » November 20th, 2020, 11:29 am


Dod101
Lemon Half
Posts: 7283
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 1731 times
Been thanked: 3020 times

Re: Temple Bar

#358383

Postby Dod101 » November 20th, 2020, 12:15 pm

There seems to be some optimism about value investing very recently. On that basis the bombed out Edinburgh IT should do well too.

Dod

seagles
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 228
Joined: August 19th, 2017, 8:37 am
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 99 times

Re: Temple Bar

#358399

Postby seagles » November 20th, 2020, 12:39 pm



Subscription needed to read article.

OllyDrod
Lemon Pip
Posts: 76
Joined: February 5th, 2020, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 61 times

Re: Temple Bar

#358405

Postby OllyDrod » November 20th, 2020, 12:58 pm

Dod101 wrote:There seems to be some optimism about value investing very recently. On that basis the bombed out Edinburgh IT should do well too.

Dod


There is, and I think some of it is slightly misplaced: the vaccines should certainly give cyclical businesses a shot in the arm ('scuse the pun) but whilst there's a lot of value in cyclicals at the moment, not every holding in a value trust will be a cyclical business. Edinburgh IT's top 3 holdings are Unilever, AstraZeneca and Tesco, for example.
- OllyDrod

Dod101
Lemon Half
Posts: 7283
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 1731 times
Been thanked: 3020 times

Re: Temple Bar

#358479

Postby Dod101 » November 20th, 2020, 3:34 pm

OllyDrod wrote:
Dod101 wrote:There seems to be some optimism about value investing very recently. On that basis the bombed out Edinburgh IT should do well too.

Dod


There is, and I think some of it is slightly misplaced: the vaccines should certainly give cyclical businesses a shot in the arm ('scuse the pun) but whilst there's a lot of value in cyclicals at the moment, not every holding in a value trust will be a cyclical business. Edinburgh IT's top 3 holdings are Unilever, AstraZeneca and Tesco, for example.
- OllyDrod


But it us not simply cyclicals that are value businesses and I think that the attraction of value shares (if any) does not have a lot to do with Covid or the vaccine. Value shares have been bombed out for some years, certainly long before Covid, hence trusts like Temple Bar and Edinburgh and a slew of others have been doing very poorly.

Dod

OllyDrod
Lemon Pip
Posts: 76
Joined: February 5th, 2020, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 61 times

Re: Temple Bar

#358512

Postby OllyDrod » November 20th, 2020, 4:26 pm

Dod101 wrote:
OllyDrod wrote:
Dod101 wrote:There seems to be some optimism about value investing very recently. On that basis the bombed out Edinburgh IT should do well too.

Dod


There is, and I think some of it is slightly misplaced: the vaccines should certainly give cyclical businesses a shot in the arm ('scuse the pun) but whilst there's a lot of value in cyclicals at the moment, not every holding in a value trust will be a cyclical business. Edinburgh IT's top 3 holdings are Unilever, AstraZeneca and Tesco, for example.
- OllyDrod


But it us not simply cyclicals that are value businesses and I think that the attraction of value shares (if any) does not have a lot to do with Covid or the vaccine. Value shares have been bombed out for some years, certainly long before Covid, hence trusts like Temple Bar and Edinburgh and a slew of others have been doing very poorly.

Dod



Agreed re: value investing's under-performance pre-dating Covid, but Edinburgh and Temple Bar's share prices fell off a cliff in response to the pandemic! What's fuelling the recent optimism around value, if not the hope that a vaccine will revive the fortunes of cyclical holdings?
- OllyDrod

Dod101
Lemon Half
Posts: 7283
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 1731 times
Been thanked: 3020 times

Re: Temple Bar

#358518

Postby Dod101 » November 20th, 2020, 4:33 pm

OllyDrod wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
Agreed re: value investing's under-performance pre-dating Covid, but Edinburgh and Temple Bar's share prices fell off a cliff in response to the pandemic! What's fuelling the recent optimism around value, if not the hope that a vaccine will revive the fortunes of cyclical holdings?
- OllyDrod


Your guess is as good as mine but I think the huge rise in many of the tech stocks has sent investors looking for better value (to coin a phrase) and there is thus a realisation that many of these value stocks are under priced. I think that Covid is a sideshow as far as that is concerned although it may have provided some stimulus. I don't know, but if value shares start to rise a bit I will not be unhappy.

Dod


Return to “Investment Trusts and Unit Trusts”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests