Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to ErroneousBee,GSVsowhat,Shelford,Hypster,Wasron, for Donating to support the site

Temple Bar

Closed-end funds and OEICs
Wizard
Lemon Half
Posts: 5088
Joined: November 7th, 2016, 8:22 am
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 900 times

Re: Temple Bar

#343474

Postby Wizard » September 28th, 2020, 1:51 pm

scotia wrote:
Wizard wrote:I was looking at Temple Bar as a potential recovery play, but the attitude of the board, as exhibited by their communication, is a strong disincentive.

I have been doing a bit more digging on the two new managers - Nick Purves and Ian Lance
For Nick Purves - see the Trustnet page
https://www2.trustnet.com/managers/factsheet/nick-purves/ima-utoeic/O/00000009DL/
His major task appears to have been the management of the St James's Place Equity Income Fund. Over 5 years its total return is minus 7.75%
And here's a Trustnet page on Ian Lance
https://www2.trustnet.com/managers/factsheet/ian-lance/ima-utoeic/o/00000918av/
Trustnet doesn't seem impressed by his abilities. I'll say no more.

If they were the best option goodness only knows how bad the others that applied were!

Dod101
Lemon Half
Posts: 7283
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 1731 times
Been thanked: 3021 times

Re: Temple Bar

#343496

Postby Dod101 » September 28th, 2020, 3:22 pm

Wizard wrote:[Which to be fair to HYP investors suggests Temple Bar has done a lot worse on income cuts than any of the HYP investors that have shared their results. I would say the more I read the less inclined I am to buy in to Temple Bar, but I have stopped reading as the decision is made and I will not invest in them. It looks like this car crash may well take a very long time to fix, if indeed it does not become a complete write-off.


It is a car crash no doubt. I think they have as you say probably done worse than the average HYP investor. Forgot to say in my last comment that the NAV has gone from £14.73 at 30 June 2019 to £8.76 at 30 June 2020 down a staggering 40.54%. No wonder they are modestly bullish about an improvement! I cannot even get an online quote to sell today. And they still believe in value investing.

Dod

ADrunkenMarcus
Lemon Slice
Posts: 972
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 11:16 am
Has thanked: 346 times
Been thanked: 266 times

Re: Temple Bar

#343498

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » September 28th, 2020, 3:30 pm

I doubt we can ever know for sure, but what effect did it have when the Board forced the then-manager to de-gear around the bottom of the market?!

I bet that conversation was fun.

Best wishes

Mark

Dod101
Lemon Half
Posts: 7283
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 1731 times
Been thanked: 3021 times

Re: Temple Bar

#343505

Postby Dod101 » September 28th, 2020, 4:01 pm

Dod101 wrote:The latest offering from the current managers tells us that they have been buying inter alia, Rolls Royce, Carnival, Easy jet and Weatherspoon. Nothing like looking to the future.

They also say that they have three themes namely

Construction
Travel and
General such as banks, and oil and gas.

Nothing like being contrarian and taking a long term view.


I was tempted to have added 'taking the p**ss or what?' Now I think we can forget the 'or what?'. They probably knew that were on the way out.

Dod

ADrunkenMarcus
Lemon Slice
Posts: 972
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 11:16 am
Has thanked: 346 times
Been thanked: 266 times

Re: Temple Bar

#343593

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » September 28th, 2020, 9:01 pm

It's one thing to stick with 'value' but they could certainly have adopted a more global tilt IMHO!

Best wishes

Mark.

Arborbridge
Lemon Half
Posts: 6176
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 1421 times
Been thanked: 2264 times

Re: Temple Bar

#343933

Postby Arborbridge » September 30th, 2020, 12:52 pm

Wizard wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Picking up Arb's point re the dividend, the latest half year results show the Investment income for the half year has dropped from £22,387.000 to 30 June 2019 to a mere £8,142,000 for the same period this year. No doubt that reflects the so called UK value shares held in the portfolio, many of which would feature in a well stocked HYP. These shares took the brunt of the dividend cuts. Is it any wonder that they have cut the dividend? They say even with the cut that they will need to use the Revenue Reserves for the remainder of this year and then again for 2021.

I am rather annoyed that they did not ask the outgoing managers to report what they did for the half year to 30 June but no doubt they thought there was not much point in that.

Dod

Which to be fair to HYP investors suggests Temple Bar has done a lot worse on income cuts than any of the HYP investors that have shared their results. I would say the more I read the less inclined I am to buy in to Temple Bar, but I have stopped reading as the decision is made and I will not invest in them. It looks like this car crash may well take a very long time to fix, if indeed it does not become a complete write-off.


This is all quite interesting, because one reason I bought in to TMPL (and others) was precisely because they were buying similar shares to my HYP. I wasn't at the time trying to look for diversification beyond that, only to see how my own efforts would compare when running alongside incoem ITs with a similar exposure.

I still don't have a clear answer - and suspect there may never be one, though to date I'd say my IT basket is outrunning my HYP. I'll make some comments on this in early October i.e. at the end of the quarter.

Arb.

Dod101
Lemon Half
Posts: 7283
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 1731 times
Been thanked: 3021 times

Re: Temple Bar

#343941

Postby Dod101 » September 30th, 2020, 1:14 pm

Temple Bar has been particularly badly served in the last few years with the manager's insistence on being in the UK value sector and the contrarian nature of the investments. I do not think say Henderson High Income or Lowland have done as badly, although Edinburgh was close I think.

Notwithstanding the high discount to NAV I think I will be ditching it very shortly. There is only so much that I can stand.

Dod

dealtn
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2694
Joined: November 21st, 2016, 4:26 pm
Has thanked: 68 times
Been thanked: 902 times

Re: Temple Bar

#343947

Postby dealtn » September 30th, 2020, 1:42 pm

Dod101 wrote:Temple Bar has been particularly badly served in the last few years with the manager's insistence on being in the UK value sector and the contrarian nature of the investments. I do not think say Henderson High Income or Lowland have done as badly, although Edinburgh was close I think.

Notwithstanding the high discount to NAV I think I will be ditching it very shortly. There is only so much that I can stand.

Dod


Not being someone who ever invests in Investment Trusts, or Unit Trusts (or such collectives), I may have got this wrong so please bear with me and explain where my thinking is wrong.

Isn't it the case that such vehicles exist such that investors can choose to invest in the manner they are mandated to follow? I mean if one wanted to invest in high yielding eastern Europe equities then a fund mandated to do such is your investment vehicle of choice, should you not be able to, or choose not to, invest directly yourself. Obviously that is an extreme example simply to make the point.

If it is a fund that its investors know is "UK value" it serves investors seeking that very niche. Now it may underperform (or outperform) others in that niche, but surely it isn't a valid criticism (with hindsight, but indeed foresight) that it stayed with such a mandate? A bigger criticism would be were it to try and reinvent itself, such as the above hypothetical example "diversifying" into Asian equities, say.

If it was simply a general fund, or a hedge fund where it didn't promise a single investment style, but instead offered great total returns due to stock picking skill alone, then of course poor performance can, and should, be criticised.

Dod101
Lemon Half
Posts: 7283
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 1731 times
Been thanked: 3021 times

Re: Temple Bar

#343964

Postby Dod101 » September 30th, 2020, 2:31 pm

dealtn

I won't reproduce the post but of course you are right. However if a fund does particularly worse than its peers in the same sector (cf Temple Bar with say the much acclaimed City of London) then they are doing something wrong. Plenty of ITs have reinvented themselves when they see that their current policy is akin to banging their head against a brick wall (a recent example being Witan Pacific)

ITs are in existence for the purpose of making money for their investors (in very broad terms anyway) not for sticking to a mandate come what may.

The Chairman of Murray Income made an interesting comment in his very recent Annual Report to 30 June when he said something to the effect that many trusts should and would not survive but for the fact that in winding them up or merging with another the directors would be voting themselves out of a job. I wondered if he had any particular one in mind, because that is the ultimate for an underperforming trust?

Dod

Arborbridge
Lemon Half
Posts: 6176
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 1421 times
Been thanked: 2264 times

Re: Temple Bar

#343988

Postby Arborbridge » September 30th, 2020, 3:45 pm

Dod101 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:The latest offering from the current managers tells us that they have been buying inter alia, Rolls Royce, Carnival, Easy jet and Weatherspoon. Nothing like looking to the future.

They also say that they have three themes namely

Construction
Travel and
General such as banks, and oil and gas.

Nothing like being contrarian and taking a long term view.


I was tempted to have added 'taking the p**ss or what?' Now I think we can forget the 'or what?'. They probably knew that were on the way out.

Dod


If they were buying shares of which a "normal" investor approved, I would be disappointed: they would by definition not be fulfilling the value/contrarian approach which I expect :)
That approach might well be "wrong" for this period of time, but that is the way the market has rewarded momentum and trashed value. (BTW, I also agree it might be that his value/contrarian selections may be just plain wrong!)
BTW, I didn't really agree with your remark comparing TMPL with CTY - the philosophy is quite different, though they are in the same sector. CTY is not a contrarian IT, more a closet tracker.


Arb.

Dod101
Lemon Half
Posts: 7283
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 1731 times
Been thanked: 3021 times

Re: Temple Bar

#344220

Postby Dod101 » October 1st, 2020, 3:10 pm

I have just thrown in the towel with Temple Bar. I just cannot sit and watch value ebbing away. I sold late yesterday afternoon at £6.57. Today, £6.40, not, I am sure, on account of my selling!

In the latest Annual Report from the chairman of Murray Income, he makes the following comments.

''One of the reasons that there are not as many investment trust transactions as there should be is the inability of Boards to agree on who should move on to the combined Board. Directors of both trusts do not want to vote to lose their jobs and directors of the surviving trust do not want to increase the number of directors. So trusts stay independent longer than they should. This is despite it usually being in both sets of shareholders' interests that the proposed combination proceeds and despite it being good for the reputation of the industry that weaker trusts merge into the stronger ones.''

Presumably that was on the back of his experience in taking over the Perpetual Income and Growth assets, but he could have been referring to Temple Bar, a weak trust if ever there was one.

Dod

Parky
Lemon Slice
Posts: 291
Joined: June 9th, 2017, 8:51 am
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 76 times

Re: Temple Bar

#345275

Postby Parky » October 5th, 2020, 9:38 am

Up 4% this morning. Does someone know something I don't?

Dod101
Lemon Half
Posts: 7283
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 1731 times
Been thanked: 3021 times

Re: Temple Bar

#345288

Postby Dod101 » October 5th, 2020, 10:18 am

Parky wrote:Up 4% this morning. Does someone know something I don't?


I think it was just vastly oversold. It has assets which can be easily valued and it was selling on Friday at a discount to those assets of around 15% .

Dod

ADrunkenMarcus
Lemon Slice
Posts: 972
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 11:16 am
Has thanked: 346 times
Been thanked: 266 times

Re: Temple Bar

#345397

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » October 5th, 2020, 4:19 pm

Parky wrote:Up 4% this morning.


Up 6.3 percent now.

If it goes up 100 percent, we'll only be seven percent below its peak earlier this year!

Best wishes


Mark.

Parky
Lemon Slice
Posts: 291
Joined: June 9th, 2017, 8:51 am
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 76 times

Re: Temple Bar

#345663

Postby Parky » October 6th, 2020, 3:34 pm

ADrunkenMarcus wrote:
Parky wrote:Up 4% this morning.


Up 6.3 percent now.

If it goes up 100 percent, we'll only be seven percent below its peak earlier this year!

Best wishes


Mark.


At the current rate of increase of 10% in two days, that will only take 20 days :-)

Antonyfool
Posts: 1
Joined: May 5th, 2020, 4:32 pm

Re: Temple Bar

#345665

Postby Antonyfool » October 6th, 2020, 3:40 pm

Merryn Somerset Webb hinted they were under valued in the FT on Saturday, so maybe that has been a factor.

Antony

Arborbridge
Lemon Half
Posts: 6176
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 1421 times
Been thanked: 2264 times

Re: Temple Bar

#345672

Postby Arborbridge » October 6th, 2020, 3:55 pm

Parky wrote:Up 4% this morning. Does someone know something I don't?



Yes, Dod sold out, which may have marked the bottom :lol:

Dod101
Lemon Half
Posts: 7283
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 1731 times
Been thanked: 3021 times

Re: Temple Bar

#345675

Postby Dod101 » October 6th, 2020, 3:58 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
Parky wrote:Up 4% this morning. Does someone know something I don't?



Yes, Dod sold out, which may have marked the bottom :lol:


I should think that that is quite likely. I am though glad to be out.

Dod

msantiago
Posts: 10
Joined: January 1st, 2020, 10:39 pm
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Temple Bar

#346258

Postby msantiago » October 8th, 2020, 5:01 pm

In my search for some "value" exposure I've been looking at investing a small proportion of my SIPP in this. Definitely a contrarian play judging by the critique on this thread!

ReallyVeryFoolish
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1292
Joined: October 5th, 2019, 12:06 pm
Has thanked: 1034 times
Been thanked: 577 times

Re: Temple Bar

#346265

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » October 8th, 2020, 5:15 pm

A HOLD given today by Questor in the Telegraph. Quite a positive note but stops short if rating it a buy.

RVF


Return to “Investment Trusts and Unit Trusts”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests