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PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

Closed-end funds and OEICs
staffordian
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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#357992

Postby staffordian » November 19th, 2020, 9:41 am

Still PLI at Halifax (19/11 @ 0941)

monabri
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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#358037

Postby monabri » November 19th, 2020, 11:01 am

Still PLI at iWeb 11:00 on 19th Nov.

(HSDL/iWeb... same family)

(it's not stressing me)

staffordian
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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#358051

Postby staffordian » November 19th, 2020, 11:43 am

monabri wrote:Still PLI at iWeb 11:00 on 19th Nov.

(HSDL/iWeb... same family)

(it's not stressing me)

Nor me, as long as I've got 'em before the next XD date :)

forrado
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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#358118

Postby forrado » November 19th, 2020, 3:58 pm

The Citywire's farewell article posted on the AIC site ...

"Goodbye Perpetual Income! Former Barnett trust folds into Murray Income"

https://www.theaic.co.uk/aic/news/citywire-news/goodbye-perpetual-income-former-barnett-trust-folds-into-murray-income

While I can't speak for former Perpetual Income shareholders, as a shareholder of Murray Income I look forward to Thursday, 17 December and the first interim payment of an enhanced 12.55p per share dividend payout. As a precondition of the takeover both trusts were required to set aside and return all revenue reserves to shareholders by an acceptable date. As a guide, this time last year Murray Income's first interim dividend payout was 8.25p per share.

With an enlarged Murray Income having to rebuild it's revenue reserves from scratch this is bound to have an impact on the trust's future dividend growth prospects. Given present market conditions regarding dividends in general then exactly how much of an impact remains to be seen, but in the meantime, market and investor reaction to the now completed deal appears to be all-round positive.

swill453
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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#358125

Postby swill453 » November 19th, 2020, 4:34 pm

Now showing MUT at AJBell. Usefully worth a tad more than the rump of PLI was this morning :-)

Scott.

Dod101
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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#358143

Postby Dod101 » November 19th, 2020, 5:19 pm

forrado wrote:While I can't speak for former Perpetual Income shareholders, as a shareholder of Murray Income I look forward to Thursday, 17 December and the first interim payment of an enhanced 12.55p per share dividend payout. As a precondition of the takeover both trusts were required to set aside and return all revenue reserves to shareholders by an acceptable date. As a guide, this time last year Murray Income's first interim dividend payout was 8.25p per share.

With an enlarged Murray Income having to rebuild it's revenue reserves from scratch this is bound to have an impact on the trust's future dividend growth prospects. Given present market conditions regarding dividends in general then exactly how much of an impact remains to be seen, but in the meantime, market and investor reaction to the now completed deal appears to be all-round positive.


Why would Murray Income have to pay out all of its Revenue Reserves. Are you certain that is correct? The Perpetual Revenue Reserves are being paid as a special dividend to the now former Perpetual shareholders but I have not heard that Murray is doing the same. They I think supplemented the Final for 2020 by a contribution from their Revenue Reserves but they are certainly not paying out all of them unless you have found something that I certainly have not seen.

The Chairman stated in the Annual Report to 30 June that for future dividend increases they may have to use realised capital gains to supplement the dividend should the Revenue Reserves prove inadequate. Tell me more. They have declared 3 interim divs but there is nothing enhanced about them ; they total 34.25p exactly the same as the first three for last year.

I look forward to forrado's response but I think he is not correct.
Dod

staffordian
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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#358189

Postby staffordian » November 19th, 2020, 7:44 pm

Halifax have updated their records in the last hour or two, so I now have the MUT shares showing.

Interestingly, when I look at the valuation page, I'm already a couple of grand or so down as far as my MUT holding is concerned, despite only owning them a few days.

Halifax are showing the MUT book cost as the total I paid for PLI.

Doesn't look right to me, but they're in an ISA so cost price will never be a vital issue.

But in any case, for my own records, I've used the published valuations to determine what I "sold" my PLI for and used this same figure* to calculate the price paid for the MUT shares.

* I couldn't use the published valuation for MUT because of losing the fractional share, so my actual cost per share is very slightly above the published figure.
Last edited by staffordian on November 19th, 2020, 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#358190

Postby OllyDrod » November 19th, 2020, 7:46 pm

Murray won't be paying out its reserve. It's had to ask shareholders for permission to pay dividends from capital as, post-merger, it'll be roughly double the size, but with the same reserve as before. This is because the PLI reserve cannot be ported across and has already been distributed to PLI shareholders, as noted above.

The below from citywire are both helpful
https://citywire.co.uk/investment-trust ... h/a1413518
https://citywire.co.uk/investment-trust ... st-insider

- OllyDrod

monabri
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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#358198

Postby monabri » November 19th, 2020, 8:23 pm

staffordian wrote:Halifax have updated their records in the last hour or two, so I now have the MUT shares showing.

Interestingly, when I look at the valuation page, I'm already a couple of grand or so down as far as my MUT holding is concerned, despite only owning them a few days.

Halifax are showing the MUT book cost as the total I paid for PLI.

Doesn't look right to me, but they're in an ISA so cost price will never be a vital issue.

But in any case, for my own records, I've used the published valuations to determine what I "sold" my PLI for and used this same figure* to calculate the price paid for the MUT shares.

* I couldn't use the published valuation for MUT because of losing the fractional share, so my actual cost per share is very slightly above the published figure.


Just had a look on iWeb. Shares have been converted and the iWeb platform quotes an average cost per share of 993.2381p and a price of 850.00p ....the website shows a "loss" of 13.62%

The MUT shareprice has not been as high as 993p...not in the last 20 yrs or so.

staffordian
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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#358206

Postby staffordian » November 19th, 2020, 8:46 pm

monabri wrote:
staffordian wrote:Halifax have updated their records in the last hour or two, so I now have the MUT shares showing.

Interestingly, when I look at the valuation page, I'm already a couple of grand or so down as far as my MUT holding is concerned, despite only owning them a few days.

Halifax are showing the MUT book cost as the total I paid for PLI.

Doesn't look right to me, but they're in an ISA so cost price will never be a vital issue.

But in any case, for my own records, I've used the published valuations to determine what I "sold" my PLI for and used this same figure* to calculate the price paid for the MUT shares.

* I couldn't use the published valuation for MUT because of losing the fractional share, so my actual cost per share is very slightly above the published figure.


Just had a look on iWeb. Shares have been converted and the iWeb platform quotes an average cost per share of 993.2381p and a price of 850.00p ....the website shows a "loss" of 13.62%

The MUT shareprice has not been as high as 993p...not in the last 20 yrs or so.

I can trump that :)

Halifax show my cost per MUT share as 1037.40 :?

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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#358209

Postby swill453 » November 19th, 2020, 8:49 pm

staffordian wrote:
monabri wrote:Just had a look on iWeb. Shares have been converted and the iWeb platform quotes an average cost per share of 993.2381p and a price of 850.00p ....the website shows a "loss" of 13.62%

The MUT shareprice has not been as high as 993p...not in the last 20 yrs or so.

I can trump that :)

Halifax show my cost per MUT share as 1037.40 :?

I believe they're probably taking your acquisition cost for your PLI shares, and pretending you paid the equivalent for the MUT shares.

That seems to be what AJBell have done for me anyway. Makes some sense I suppose.

Scott.

staffordian
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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#358212

Postby staffordian » November 19th, 2020, 8:57 pm

swill453 wrote:
staffordian wrote:
monabri wrote:Just had a look on iWeb. Shares have been converted and the iWeb platform quotes an average cost per share of 993.2381p and a price of 850.00p ....the website shows a "loss" of 13.62%

The MUT shareprice has not been as high as 993p...not in the last 20 yrs or so.

I can trump that :)

Halifax show my cost per MUT share as 1037.40 :?

I believe they're probably taking your acquisition cost for your PLI shares, and pretending you paid the equivalent for the MUT shares.

That seems to be what AJBell have done for me anyway. Makes some sense I suppose.

Scott.

Yes, definitely that. I presume there must be some reason why they couldn't have done what I did for my records, show a sell at the correct price as per the recent announcement and a buy using those proceeds. It would have produced a more meaningful cost per share

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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#358265

Postby Dod101 » November 20th, 2020, 12:41 am

So where is forrado? Where did his comments come from? I doubt that there is any substance to them. I thought it was just me that had got it wrong.

Do not believe everything that you find on a website.

Dod

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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#358419

Postby daveh » November 20th, 2020, 1:29 pm

swill453 wrote:I believe they're probably taking your acquisition cost for your PLI shares, and pretending you paid the equivalent for the MUT shares.

That seems to be what AJBell have done for me anyway. Makes some sense I suppose.

Scott.


That is what I would do in my own spreadsheet if I owned PLI. Then I would have the correct base cost for capital gains purposes as well.

staffordian
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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#363040

Postby staffordian » December 4th, 2020, 10:55 pm

Has anyone else received a small credit relating to the PLI/MUT merger?

I had 3888 PLI shares in my Halifax Share Dealing ISA and today received the grand total of £4.57, or the equivalent of approximately (!) 0.1175411522633745p per share.

Halifax merely show it as

"Corporate Action: 3888 PERPETUAL INCGRTH ORD GBP0.10"

with no further details, and I don't understand what it relates to. My initial thought was that it to do with partial shares, which were lost in the conversion. I assume as far as Halifax were concerned, they only lost a fraction of one share of their aggregated holding, and thus had some surplus as they then took partial shares off every one of their clients holdings, but given the price per share at the time of the transaction was in the region of £2.49, I can't see how an adjustment of twice this figure can relate to partial shares.

I know it's a palty amount, but I'm unsure how to account for it on my spreadsheet and finance program.

Any thoughts would be welcome.

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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#363043

Postby Dod101 » December 4th, 2020, 11:19 pm

HI staffordian, petty cash I would have thought, but seriously if you are worried about that amount just forget it and take it as a refund of charges or something.

I doubt that the liquidation can be completed as yet and so I suppose a fractional share entitlement may be the answer.

Dod

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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#363064

Postby staffordian » December 5th, 2020, 7:54 am

Dod101 wrote:HI staffordian, petty cash I would have thought, but seriously if you are worried about that amount just forget it and take it as a refund of charges or something.

I doubt that the liquidation can be completed as yet and so I suppose a fractional share entitlement may be the answer.

Dod

Certainly not worried Dod, just puzzled as I thought it was done and dusted and having read the RNSs, don't see any explanation for any other reimbursement.

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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#363116

Postby fisher » December 5th, 2020, 11:28 am

staffordian wrote:Has anyone else received a small credit relating to the PLI/MUT merger?

I had 3888 PLI shares in my Halifax Share Dealing ISA and today received the grand total of £4.57, or the equivalent of approximately (!) 0.1175411522633745p per share.

Halifax merely show it as

"Corporate Action: 3888 PERPETUAL INCGRTH ORD GBP0.10"

with no further details, and I don't understand what it relates to. My initial thought was that it to do with partial shares, which were lost in the conversion. I assume as far as Halifax were concerned, they only lost a fraction of one share of their aggregated holding, and thus had some surplus as they then took partial shares off every one of their clients holdings, but given the price per share at the time of the transaction was in the region of £2.49, I can't see how an adjustment of twice this figure can relate to partial shares.

I know it's a palty amount, but I'm unsure how to account for it on my spreadsheet and finance program.

Any thoughts would be welcome.


The MUT shares you received are priced over £8 each, so I guess Halifax received some shares they couldn't allocate across all their clients as their entitlement would be fractional. So I think they will have sold the "unallocatable" shares and distributed the proceeds; hence your £4.57.

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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#363135

Postby staffordian » December 5th, 2020, 12:36 pm

fisher wrote:
staffordian wrote:Has anyone else received a small credit relating to the PLI/MUT merger?

I had 3888 PLI shares in my Halifax Share Dealing ISA and today received the grand total of £4.57, or the equivalent of approximately (!) 0.1175411522633745p per share.

Halifax merely show it as

"Corporate Action: 3888 PERPETUAL INCGRTH ORD GBP0.10"

with no further details, and I don't understand what it relates to. My initial thought was that it to do with partial shares, which were lost in the conversion. I assume as far as Halifax were concerned, they only lost a fraction of one share of their aggregated holding, and thus had some surplus as they then took partial shares off every one of their clients holdings, but given the price per share at the time of the transaction was in the region of £2.49, I can't see how an adjustment of twice this figure can relate to partial shares.

I know it's a palty amount, but I'm unsure how to account for it on my spreadsheet and finance program.

Any thoughts would be welcome.


The MUT shares you received are priced over £8 each, so I guess Halifax received some shares they couldn't allocate across all their clients as their entitlement would be fractional. So I think they will have sold the "unallocatable" shares and distributed the proceeds; hence your £4.57.

Thanks, yes. That makes sense. Can't really be anything else. I was doubting it based on the fractional value of the PLI shares not that of the surplus MUT shares.

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Re: PERPETUAL INCOME & GROWTH I T

#366621

Postby swill453 » December 16th, 2020, 8:08 am

staffordian wrote:
fisher wrote:The MUT shares you received are priced over £8 each, so I guess Halifax received some shares they couldn't allocate across all their clients as their entitlement would be fractional. So I think they will have sold the "unallocatable" shares and distributed the proceeds; hence your £4.57.

Thanks, yes. That makes sense. Can't really be anything else. I was doubting it based on the fractional value of the PLI shares not that of the surplus MUT shares.

Just noticed I had a similar credit in my SIPP at AJBell of £5.05, labelled in my cash statement as "Murray Cash Fractions".

Scott.


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