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Which Nasdaq-100 ETF should I buy for my SIIP account?

Index tracking funds and ETFs
blueloch
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Which Nasdaq-100 ETF should I buy for my SIIP account?

#601248

Postby blueloch » July 10th, 2023, 7:44 pm

Hello,

I have been looking to buy a Nasdaq-100 tracking ETF for my SIIP account. From what I can find out, there are quite a few of those available in the market. I am looking to buy one which has the lowest annual fees and the smallest tracking error, with enough liquidity and minimum counter-party risk. I would have preferred QQQ, but it is unavailable to UK-based investors.

I prefer a USD-based ETF and have been looking at LSE-listed CNDX, EQQU, NASD and XNAS. At the moment, I am trying to decide between EQQU and XNAS. EQQU has a longer history, is managed by Invesco with an annual expense ratio of 0.30%. XNAS has a much shorter history (it was launched in January 2021), is managed by DWS with an annual expense ratio of 0.20%. Any income from EQQU will be paid quarterly, while with XNAS, returns and gains are not distributed but are reinvested in the fund.

The two funds had the same performance before fees in 2022. In this year, XNAS has a better 6-month performance, while EQQU has better performances in 1-month and 3-month periods. EQQU also has much higher daily volumes.

So, any advice? Many thanks. :)

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Re: Which Nasdaq-100 ETF should I buy for my SIIP account?

#601288

Postby JohnW » July 10th, 2023, 11:32 pm

Lest many of us are missing out on a good opportunity here, can you tell us why you’re attracted to the Nasdaq100?
It contains Astra Zeneca, American Electric Power, Apple, Costco Wholesale, Marriott, PepsiCo and Starbucks, Kraft Heinz. Is there a ‘theme’ with good risk adjusted returns? Nasdaq is an exchange where presumably anyone can apply to have their publicly traded company listed to be traded. Why might it give better returns than the NYSE?
Until recently the Nasdaq100 underperformed the US stock market for 16 years; can you keep the faith for that long while you’re losing out? I enjoy data analysis and get off on the latest software update as much as the next person, but for me investing isn’t an indulgence it’s a bare knuckle necessity. Talk me into the Nasdaq.
The two funds had the same performance before fees in 2022. In this year, XNAS has a better 6-month performance, while EQQU has better performances in 1-month and 3-month periods.

When I invest in stocks it’s for longer than 3 months which makes a 3 month return irrelevant, so if you’re trading the Nasdaq100 I'll leave you to it.

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Re: Which Nasdaq-100 ETF should I buy for my SIIP account?

#601293

Postby EthicsGradient » July 11th, 2023, 12:05 am

I would think the "theme" is "the big American tech firms".

https://indexes.nasdaqomx.com/docs/FS_XNDX.pdf

The top 9 (10 if you count Alphabet/Google's 2 share classes separately) are 59.2% of the index. Overall, 61.65% Technology, 19.32% Consumer Discretionary, and bits of other stuff.

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Re: Which Nasdaq-100 ETF should I buy for my SIIP account?

#601301

Postby blueloch » July 11th, 2023, 3:27 am

EthicsGradient wrote:I would think the "theme" is "the big American tech firms". ...The top 9 (10 if you count Alphabet/Google's 2 share classes separately) are 59.2% of the index. Overall, 61.65% Technology, 19.32% Consumer Discretionary, and bits of other stuff.


Exactly. To me this is a cost-effective way of getting exposure to this theme.

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Re: Which Nasdaq-100 ETF should I buy for my SIIP account?

#601302

Postby blueloch » July 11th, 2023, 3:31 am

JohnW wrote:Why might it give better returns than the NYSE?


I am also going to buy a S&P 500 tracker as well, and it was going to be the topic of my next thread. So yes, I am keeping up my tradition of always opening two threads instead of just one whenever possible. :lol:

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Re: Which Nasdaq-100 ETF should I buy for my SIIP account?

#601303

Postby blueloch » July 11th, 2023, 3:36 am

JohnW wrote:When I invest in stocks it’s for longer than 3 months which makes a 3 month return irrelevant, so if you’re trading the Nasdaq100 I'll leave you to it.


I do not plan to trade the Nasdaq 100 this way, but when I look at different securities, I always compare their short-term and longer-term performances. When there are divergences, it could indicate a change in relative strength. Hope this helps. :)

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Re: Which Nasdaq-100 ETF should I buy for my SIIP account?

#601339

Postby JohnW » July 11th, 2023, 9:15 am

am also going to buy a S&P 500 tracker as well

If one wanted to overweight ‘big American tech’ it seems messy way to do it because you miss out on over-weighting Seagate, Zoom, Verisign et al as they’re not in the N100, but you dilute your ‘big American tech’ over-weighting by doubling up on pepsico, walmart, costco, marriott, starbucks, Kraft et al which are in the N100. You double up, or not, on some big tech simply because they decided to, or not to, list on the Nasdaq as well as NYSE. That seems a flimsy basis for an investing choice.
But is it even wise to double up on Pepsico and Microsoft? The market cap weighting reflects all that the market knows about the prospects of all those stocks; to think some are worth more than the market thinks they are worth is to say you know better than everyone else. That’s a big call.
It’s only the last decade that the Nasdaq has outperformed the SP500. Beware ‘recency bias’ isn’t guiding you the wrong way.
Getting into out-performing stocks, funds, sectors etc when the out-performance is established is a classic way of poorer returns if the out-performance ceases. Here's an example, and Cathy Wood is similar:
‘…Bill Miller and the Legg Mason Value Trust, .. beat the S&P 500 in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005, …only to fall farther than -70%. Enough worse than the stock market to create huge losses for anyone who bought the fund after 1991.’ https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewto ... start=1500
If you have an interest in a field like information technology beware that familiarity bias doesn’t guide you the wrong way.
do not plan to trade the Nasdaq 100 this way, but when I look at different securities, I always compare their short-term and longer-term performances. When there are divergences, it could indicate a change in relative strength. Hope that helps.

I’m a bit narrow minded but it doesn’t help me. If anyone else can describe a strategy for stock or fund selection based on that those two sentences I’ll be impressed. But if you can explain it the rest of us might just get some benefit from it.

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Re: Which Nasdaq-100 ETF should I buy for my SIIP account?

#601573

Postby torata » July 12th, 2023, 9:15 am

blueloch wrote:I do not plan to trade the Nasdaq 100 this way, but when I look at different securities, I always compare their short-term and longer-term performances. When there are divergences, it could indicate a change in relative strength. Hope this helps. :)


Like JohnW, I'm not sure what you mean by this, and if it's relevant.
You're deciding an ETF - so cost, tracking error, spread and maybe fund size are surely what's key (ignoring base and dividend currency). Or am I missing something?

torata

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Re: Which Nasdaq-100 ETF should I buy for my SIIP account?

#601607

Postby EthicsGradient » July 12th, 2023, 10:34 am

JohnW wrote:It’s only the last decade that the Nasdaq has outperformed the SP500

I don't see how you've arrived at that. Taking the data since 1985 when the NASDAQ 100 started:

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/%5ENDX/ ... Close=true
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/%5EGSPC ... Close=true

the NASDAQ 100 has, over longer periods, nearly always outperformed the S&P 500. Using a 10 year period, for example, the NASDAQ 100 did better in all periods from (ending date) Oct 1995 to Oct 2008, and Feb 2011 to the present. It's only that Nov 2008 to Jan 2011 section in which the S&P 500 would have ended up better - ie started investing Nov 1998 to Jan 2001. The NASDAQ 100 had a bubble then, so if you only bought in that period, you'd have done badly. But purchases at other times have done better than the S&P 500.

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Re: Which Nasdaq-100 ETF should I buy for my SIIP account?

#601818

Postby JohnW » July 12th, 2023, 11:32 pm

Thanks for checking. I’ll take your summary as correct. I only looked at portfoliovisualizer, and struggled to find a suitable fund that had a long enough history to be useful. I didn’t post the link because doing so only takes you back to the home page. I can’t now find the comparison I saw, but did find Fidelity NASDAQ Composite Index compared to SPDR S&P 500 ETF Trust shows them neck and neck from 2004 to 2014, then the Nasdaq outperforming.
Your results make it a tempting proposition, clearly, but a couple of thoughts…..
What about the Sharpe ratio (return compared to risk)? Actually in the comparison I just did the Nasdaq was better; even more tempting. Does the investor spend in $US? Your/my comparisons are not the outcomes in GBP; does that work too? If so, even more tempting.
So, does anyone know any decent research supporting N100 investing? Bill Sharpe, Ken French, Eugene Fama pull apart stock returns for fun and profit, but I’ve not heard them on the Nasdaq. Indeed they think small cap value is a factor explaining good returns, but the N100 is large cap growth. What to do?

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Re: Which Nasdaq-100 ETF should I buy for my SIIP account?

#601829

Postby blueloch » July 13th, 2023, 3:26 am

EthicsGradient wrote:the NASDAQ 100 has, over longer periods, nearly always outperformed the S&P 500. Using a 10 year period, for example, the NASDAQ 100 did better in all periods from (ending date) Oct 1995 to Oct 2008, and Feb 2011 to the present. It's only that Nov 2008 to Jan 2011 section in which the S&P 500 would have ended up better - ie started investing Nov 1998 to Jan 2001. The NASDAQ 100 had a bubble then, so if you only bought in that period, you'd have done badly. But purchases at other times have done better than the S&P 500.


Thank you really for this information. My data did not go back to as long a period, but my conclusion was the same. :)

Each person has a different approach to investing and the markets, I suppose. I look at divergences and convergences as part of my tool box, as they often indicate the flows of funds. When there are meaningful flows of funds, there are trends and opportunities for profits.

To me investing is neither an indulgence nor a bare-knuckle necessity. It is an intellectual exercise that requires deep understanding in human nature and discipline. To me all the data from the markets always tell me what is happening there. When I understand the stories behind the data on the basis of human nature, there are opportunities.

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Re: Which Nasdaq-100 ETF should I buy for my SIIP account?

#601916

Postby JohnW » July 13th, 2023, 11:17 am

the NASDAQ 100 has, over longer periods, nearly always outperformed the S&P 500.

I've been kept awake all night wondering why I don’t own QQQ.
I think it’s because I prefer more diversification, am cautious about recency bias and performance chasing, and don’t want to miss out on Australia since it’s had the best performing national stock market since 1900.
All this data is very date sensitive, both start and end dates. We, I mean I, really should have specified the dates I was using.
Can one have too much data! Your preferred fund, but ruled out for where it’s domiciled, is QQQ. Portfoliovisualizer compares QQQ (USA N100 etf) with SPY (SP500 fund) from start of QQQ in 2000. Note, that’s a justified start date, but you can pick others. QQQ beat SPY by 0.07%/year on average, had a worse Sharpe ratio and spent 19 years underperforming SPY. You’d have only been ahead during the last 3 years, and not all the time during the last 3 years. If I didn’t tell you it was QQQ, would you be keen on investing in such a fund compared with the SP500, when the SP500 is more diversified (thus less risky) and covers similar countries/businesses etc? I don’t see a compelling reason for QQQ or the like, but they’ve both been pretty similar so I suppose it wouldn’t be a hanging crime to choose either one over the other. But start 2 years later with the comparison, and QQQ outperforms SPY by 3.3%/year with a better Sharpe ratio. Now which comparison are we going to bet our fortunes on? And then there’s: ‘Past performance is not a reliable indicator of future results.’ an obligatory warning perhaps because folk too readily take it as reliable.
If one chooses the N100 to invest in ahead of SP500 or even better a global index because N100 has outperformed the others, that’s not an investing strategy, because the N100 is a jumble of PepsiCo, Walmart, Apple and others that listed there instead of NYSE because listing there was cheaper. It looks more like performance chasing.
I look at divergences and convergences as part of my tool box, as they often indicate the flows of funds. When there are meaningful flows of funds, there are trends and opportunities for profits.’....
When I understand the stories behind the data on the basis of human nature, there are opportunities

Don’t hesitate to elaborate so we can all benefit.

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Re: Which Nasdaq-100 ETF should I buy for my SIIP account?

#602021

Postby EthicsGradient » July 13th, 2023, 5:39 pm

JohnW wrote:
the NASDAQ 100 has, over longer periods, nearly always outperformed the S&P 500.

I've been kept awake all night wondering why I don’t own QQQ.
I think it’s because I prefer more diversification, am cautious about recency bias and performance chasing, and don’t want to miss out on Australia since it’s had the best performing national stock market since 1900.
All this data is very date sensitive, both start and end dates. We, I mean I, really should have specified the dates I was using.
Can one have too much data! Your preferred fund, but ruled out for where it’s domiciled, is QQQ. Portfoliovisualizer compares QQQ (USA N100 etf) with SPY (SP500 fund) from start of QQQ in 2000. Note, that’s a justified start date, but you can pick others. QQQ beat SPY by 0.07%/year on average, had a worse Sharpe ratio and spent 19 years underperforming SPY. You’d have only been ahead during the last 3 years, and not all the time during the last 3 years. If I didn’t tell you it was QQQ, would you be keen on investing in such a fund compared with the SP500, when the SP500 is more diversified (thus less risky) and covers similar countries/businesses etc? I don’t see a compelling reason for QQQ or the like, but they’ve both been pretty similar so I suppose it wouldn’t be a hanging crime to choose either one over the other. But start 2 years later with the comparison, and QQQ outperforms SPY by 3.3%/year with a better Sharpe ratio. Now which comparison are we going to bet our fortunes on? And then there’s: ‘Past performance is not a reliable indicator of future results.’ an obligatory warning perhaps because folk too readily take it as reliable.
If one chooses the N100 to invest in ahead of SP500 or even better a global index because N100 has outperformed the others, that’s not an investing strategy, because the N100 is a jumble of PepsiCo, Walmart, Apple and others that listed there instead of NYSE because listing there was cheaper. It looks more like performance chasing.
I look at divergences and convergences as part of my tool box, as they often indicate the flows of funds. When there are meaningful flows of funds, there are trends and opportunities for profits.’....
When I understand the stories behind the data on the basis of human nature, there are opportunities

Don’t hesitate to elaborate so we can all benefit.

The NASDAQ 100 is certainly less diversified than the S&P 500; but the OP is not necessarily looking for one diverse investment. They may have other assets (property, a DB pension, a DC pension they can't just switch to whatever fund they want), with which this would just alter their overall risk. The NASDAQ 100 is more volatile. But the investor may be contemplating regular investment in the SIPP, which increases the importance of long-term return, and lessens the risk from volatility.

I wouldn't want to "bet our fortunes" on either starting point. The worst point to start using the NASDAQ 100 to invest until now would be, from my figures, Feb 2000, around the QQQ start date. But I don't think you can characterise that as "19 years underperforming SPY". It's 16 years to overcome the awful performance of the NASDAQ 100 over about 3 years.

I also used a spreadsheet for "which is better, if you have been investing regularly between 2 dates?" (with the regular amount going up 2% each year, to allow for inflation/salary increase). I think the worst starting point for the NASDAQ 100 index, relatively, would be around when its bubble started - around the end of 1998. The NASDAQ gets better and better until about Aug 2000, when the S&P starts catching up - it overtakes by Nov 2000. By June 2002, the NASDAQ account is only 2/3rds of the S&P. But by Nov 2003, it's 95%. They they hover at around the same worth until about Feb 2009, when the NASDAQ 100 starts pulling ahead, and has been increasing its lead pretty much ever since (now roughly twice the S&P 500 account).

So regular investing, over more than 10 years, has, I think, pretty much always done better in the NASDAQ 100 than the S&P 500. It's not really a "jumble"; it is dominated by large tech (a wide definition of 'tech' - firms like Amazon are "Consumer Discretionary", because they sell general goods, but they use tech a lot) firms, which have generally been founded relatively recently (Walmart doesn't appear to be on it - perhaps because it's listed on the NYSE too?; there aren't many large established constituents like PepsiCo). It'd be worth comparing the charges and performance of a tech index too.

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Re: Which Nasdaq-100 ETF should I buy for my SIIP account?

#602077

Postby JohnW » July 13th, 2023, 11:32 pm

Thanks again. Your analysis is a lot more detailed and accurate than mine. It was your almost 16 years, not my 19 as you say, and now I don’t see Walmart in the N100 (if I ever did).
Whether or not you have property, other pensions or a rich mother in law, the decision to buy QQQ or SPY stands or their merits surely? You buy the one likely to have the best risk adjusted returns I think since they’re in the same asset class. That leaves the only argument in favour of QQQ as past returns, or ‘I’m familiar with the sector’, or ‘I like tech science’.
Sector funds are a wealth hazard according to some. Bernstein interviewed by Morningstar this week: ‘how far short do mutual fund investors fall from the actual return of the fund? .. ordinary total stock market funds (holders) do pretty well. They have a pretty small gap on the order of about 0.5% or 1%. When you look at sexy growth stocks, that gap rises, and when you look at tech stocks, the gap is probably double digits.’ https://the-long-view.simplecast.com/ep ... transcript
Ben Felix suggests excitement about new technologies or industries tends to push up their prices, and likens buying thematic funds to setting fire to your money. Pepsico and Costco make N100 less of a thematic or sector index, making it safer I'm sure.
It'd be worth comparing the charges and performance of a tech index too.

Interesting yes, but questionably worth it if you use past performance to guide you.

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Re: Which Nasdaq-100 ETF should I buy for my SIIP account?

#602146

Postby EthicsGradient » July 14th, 2023, 11:48 am

JohnW wrote:Thanks again. Your analysis is a lot more detailed and accurate than mine. It was your almost 16 years, not my 19 as you say, and now I don’t see Walmart in the N100 (if I ever did).
Whether or not you have property, other pensions or a rich mother in law, the decision to buy QQQ or SPY stands or their merits surely?

If we're talking about diversification, then your other assets have to be taken into account.
You buy the one likely to have the best risk adjusted returns I think since they’re in the same asset class. That leaves the only argument in favour of QQQ as past returns

You judge the risk adjusted returns in light of the past returns. That's inevitable. And each person will have a level of risk they feel comfortable with; again, when choosing a new investment, this will depend on the risks of their other assets (and the requirements that these are to fund).

Sector funds are a wealth hazard according to some. Bernstein interviewed by Morningstar this week: ‘how far short do mutual fund investors fall from the actual return of the fund? .. ordinary total stock market funds (holders) do pretty well. They have a pretty small gap on the order of about 0.5% or 1%. When you look at sexy growth stocks, that gap rises, and when you look at tech stocks, the gap is probably double digits.’ https://the-long-view.simplecast.com/ep ... transcript

That's saying that the behaviour of fund investors is the problem. When you look at when investors have chosen to buy or sell the funds (by measuring the total net new money going into the funds), they've done worse than if they had just owned the fund for the whole period, whatever the price movement. Most people are bad at timing the market.

Ben Felix suggests excitement about new technologies or industries tends to push up their prices, and likens buying thematic funds to setting fire to your money.

I'm glad for him. I have no idea who he is. I'm not sure why a tendency for prices to go up is "like setting fire to your money", though.

It'd be worth comparing the charges and performance of a tech index too.

Interesting yes, but questionably worth it if you use past performance to guide you.

We all use past performance to guide us. People invest in the stock market because its past performance is better than a savings account, or inflation-linked bond.

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Re: Which Nasdaq-100 ETF should I buy for my SIIP account?

#602168

Postby JohnW » July 14th, 2023, 1:09 pm

I think we’re in more furious agreement than a casual bystander might feel, but I’ve got a slightly different perspective on some of this.
If we're talking about diversification, then your other assets have to be taken into account.’

Indeed they do, and if you had property, gold bars, oil barrels and a decrepit but rich mother in law then it matters little whether you miss out on the diversification of emerging markets in your stocks or over-weight in tech stocks and Pepsico. But when we’re talking about principles to guide investing, if the choice is ‘omit emerging markets’ or not, or ’over-weight tech’ or not, all your gold etc is irrelevant since omitting emerging markets or over-weighting tech is not optimal (and usually easily achievable) diversification.
You buy the one likely to have the best risk adjusted returns I think since they’re in the same asset class. That leaves the only argument in favour of QQQ as past returns

You judge the risk adjusted returns in light of the past returns.’

You can, but those measures won’t necessarily be repeated so you wouldn’t want to trust them, and I don’t think you have to. Being more diversified in stocks reduces risk. The best estimate for the return of any stock will be the market return, since any better or worse return occurs less commonly (all of ‘aboves’ and ‘belows’ contributing to the market return). So if you can reduce risk (with diversification) you should be predicting better risk adjusted returns; you don’t need past returns to show that. It is the efficient market hypothesis which one accepts as largely applying, or you don’t believe it has any merit.
You could probably find a stock with a long history of better risk adjusted returns than the total stock market, but that surely wouldn’t convince you that it was a better prospect from now forward in terms of risk adjusted returns, as the risk is far greater than market risk; in fact its risk is market risk plus the idiosyncratic risk of that company (due to the sector it’s in, the genius CEO who might die or the pollution it might cause in Bhopal).
And each person will have a level of risk they feel comfortable with;…this will depend on the risks of their other assets (and the requirements that these are to fund)’

Yes, one might be in a position to take more risk than market risk, hoping to shoot the lights out but happy to go under (the market) otherwise. But there was nothing in the OP to suggest that; indeed it included ‘liquidity’ and ‘minimum counter-party risk’. It was hinting at risk reduction, not extra risk.
‘That's saying that the behaviour of fund investors is the problem. Most people are bad at timing the market.‘

Yes, exactly; that’s what I was warning against with ‘performance chasing’ and recency bias.
No loss not knowing Ben Felix, just another talking head. When I tried to post the link it embedded the youtube video, so I left it out.
‘We all use past performance to guide us. People invest in the stock market because its past performance is better than a savings account, or inflation-linked bond.

Then we ought to re-think it. You don’t need past returns to tell you about stocks, bonds and cash. There’s little risk with cash as you get your money back; there’s more with bonds as you may lose your money; and even more with stocks where there isn’t even a promise to return your money. If you know that people expect more return if they take more risk, you don't need to know past returns, but past volatility is useful. Past returns can be a hint that stocks will likely meet your future needs but bonds won't, but that's different from knowing QQQ was better than SPY.


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