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Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

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Clitheroekid
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Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#132395

Postby Clitheroekid » April 15th, 2018, 10:05 pm

Does anyone understand the significance of a large red tarmac area around the centre of a mini-roundabout. They've just built one on my route home, and although I've seen fairly narrow red strips before - maybe two or three feet wide - this one is about 7 feet wide. In fact it's so large that it's not really a mini-roundabout at all.

Although the red strip is slightly banked compared to the neighbouring black tarmac it's perfectly easy to drive over - there's no kerb separating it from the black tarmac, and as it's tarmac it's supposedly meant to be driven on. But everyone (except me!) avoids driving across it as though it's somehow sacrosanct, so it seems entirely pointless.

A quick Google hasn't found an answer, though I may be using an incorrect search term.

GoSeigen
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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#132404

Postby GoSeigen » April 15th, 2018, 10:58 pm

Clitheroekid wrote:Does anyone understand the significance of a large red tarmac area around the centre of a mini-roundabout. They've just built one on my route home, and although I've seen fairly narrow red strips before - maybe two or three feet wide - this one is about 7 feet wide. In fact it's so large that it's not really a mini-roundabout at all.

Although the red strip is slightly banked compared to the neighbouring black tarmac it's perfectly easy to drive over - there's no kerb separating it from the black tarmac, and as it's tarmac it's supposedly meant to be driven on. But everyone (except me!) avoids driving across it as though it's somehow sacrosanct, so it seems entirely pointless.

A quick Google hasn't found an answer, though I may be using an incorrect search term.



My understanding is that you're normally meant to drive around it not over it; however if your vehicle is long like a bus or lorry, then curving round it may be impossible, which is the purpose of the banked red bit. Presumably the banking is to both discourage regular use of the red bit and to slow down the larger vehicles which cannot avoid going over it.

Could be wrong though...

GS

vrdiver
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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#132410

Postby vrdiver » April 15th, 2018, 11:46 pm

I think you're referring to "overruns". See http://www.ukroads.org/webfiles/TAL%201 ... 0Areas.pdf and http://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/h ... td5407.pdf

Specifically: (from the first link)
Purpose
Overrun areas are used to create the optical illusion that the useable carriageway is narrower than it actually is. These areas may be employed on bends to encourage car drivers to keep to a low speed but still allow sufficient room for larger vehicles to negotiate them. Similarly they can be used at junctions, particularly roundabouts, to deflect traffic away from a straight ahead and faster path, where the overrunning area allows larger vehicles to negotiate the junction without problems.


and from the 2nd:
6.11 A concentric overrun area may be used if required to increase the deflection and conspicuity; the maximum diameter of the overrun area is 7.5m. See Figure 6/4. It should be noted that light vehicles are not legally obliged to avoid overrun areas in the same way as the white circle of a mini-roundabout


VRD

Clitheroekid
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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#132416

Postby Clitheroekid » April 16th, 2018, 1:14 am


Brilliant! I had no idea that such things existed, so thank you for answering my question so comprehensively.

It should be noted that light vehicles are not legally obliged to avoid overrun areas in the same way as the white circle of a mini-roundabout

So I am entitled to drive across the overruns. That's useful to know.

Incidentally, until I read the material that you linked to and looked at the relevant regulations I hadn't realised it was an offence to drive across the white circle in the middle of a mini-roundabout (which I'm afraid I do regularly) but it is.

You learn something new everyday! ;)

swill453
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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#132419

Postby swill453 » April 16th, 2018, 3:58 am

Clitheroekid wrote:Incidentally, until I read the material that you linked to and looked at the relevant regulations I hadn't realised it was an offence to drive across the white circle in the middle of a mini-roundabout (which I'm afraid I do regularly) but it is.

Yes, the Highway Code has it as one of its "must not" rules.

Scott.

bungeejumper
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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#132457

Postby bungeejumper » April 16th, 2018, 9:26 am

I hadn't seen red tarmac on a roundabout either until last year, when it appeared on a new roundabout near us. An added refinement is that the centre of this roundabout is just a cobbled circle, raised by about two inches. So you wouldn't feel inclined to drive across the cobbled middle, but it's there just in case you need to. The red inner-lane strip is there as well - I use it freely, although other car drivers seem to stick to the black surface.

The reason for all this is that the council has been finally getting tough on enforcing the 10 tonne limit on a medieval stone bridge - which means that the 40-tonners who have been chancing it along this road for many years are now being turned back. And how the hell are the truck drivers to complete a 180 degree turn on a mini-roundabout? The red strip and the cobbled centre are a practical solution that gives them enough room.

I am not in the habit of congratulating Wiltshire's road planners, who are mostly clueless, but they've got it right with this one. Now all we need is to tell the satnav producers that this road is finally closed to HGVs. And that a 15 mile diversion is now required in order to cross this particular river. But hey, that's another story. :lol:

BJ

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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#132551

Postby didds » April 16th, 2018, 2:50 pm

bungeejumper wrote:I am not in the habit of congratulating Wiltshire's road planners



You mean Wiltshire's roads are planned ?!

, who are mostly clueless
BJ


I don't think they are that good.

didds

Nimrod103
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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#132716

Postby Nimrod103 » April 17th, 2018, 8:27 am

While on the subject of mini roundabouts and speed of traffic, there are several near me, where the sight lines to traffic on the right are poor to non existant. This is OK where traffic is moving relatively slowly. But these mini roundabouts are on main roads, where cars don't slow down on the approach to the roundabout.
I am familiar with giving way to traffic on a roundabout, when entering. But in the circumstances I mention, I can't see that a car is approaching at 30-40mph from my right. It isn't yet on the mini roundabout, but by the time I have entered the roundabout, it is right up against my drivers door. Who has right of way?

swill453
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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#132720

Postby swill453 » April 17th, 2018, 8:45 am

Nimrod103 wrote:I am familiar with giving way to traffic on a roundabout, when entering. But in the circumstances I mention, I can't see that a car is approaching at 30-40mph from my right. It isn't yet on the mini roundabout, but by the time I have entered the roundabout, it is right up against my drivers door. Who has right of way?

The Highway Code says "give priority to traffic approaching from your right", so doesn't explicitly help.

Scott.

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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#132728

Postby vrdiver » April 17th, 2018, 9:11 am

Nimrod103 wrote:While on the subject of mini roundabouts and speed of traffic, there are several near me, where the sight lines to traffic on the right are poor to non existant. This is OK where traffic is moving relatively slowly. But these mini roundabouts are on main roads, where cars don't slow down on the approach to the roundabout.
I am familiar with giving way to traffic on a roundabout, when entering. But in the circumstances I mention, I can't see that a car is approaching at 30-40mph from my right. It isn't yet on the mini roundabout, but by the time I have entered the roundabout, it is right up against my drivers door. Who has right of way?

Of the mini roundabouts you refer to, do they meet the standards as defined in Table 6.1 of http://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/h ... td5407.pdf ? (Worth reading the whole section to put the table into context.)

VRD

GoSeigen
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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#132742

Postby GoSeigen » April 17th, 2018, 10:13 am

Nimrod103 wrote:While on the subject of mini roundabouts and speed of traffic, there are several near me, where the sight lines to traffic on the right are poor to non existant. This is OK where traffic is moving relatively slowly. But these mini roundabouts are on main roads, where cars don't slow down on the approach to the roundabout.
I am familiar with giving way to traffic on a roundabout, when entering. But in the circumstances I mention, I can't see that a car is approaching at 30-40mph from my right. It isn't yet on the mini roundabout, but by the time I have entered the roundabout, it is right up against my drivers door. Who has right of way?


Mini roundabouts are only located where the speed limit is 30 or below. Treet it as you would turning from any side road onto a main road. Be very cautious, only proceed when there is a large enough gap and if a selfish git travelling over the speed limit happens to come along, hope that he is also competent enough not to hit you before you've pulled out. The presence of the mini roundabout has little relevance to this manouever, apart from the implication that the speed limit will always be below 30; similarly right of way is academic when safety is the priority and you have acknowledged that you are stationary, entering from a side turning, have to give way, have no clear view and approaching vehicles could be moving fast.


GS

bungeejumper
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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#132762

Postby bungeejumper » April 17th, 2018, 11:00 am

Nimrod103 wrote:While on the subject of mini roundabouts and speed of traffic, there are several near me, where the sight lines to traffic on the right are poor to non existant. This is OK where traffic is moving relatively slowly. But these mini roundabouts are on main roads, where cars don't slow down on the approach to the roundabout.
I am familiar with giving way to traffic on a roundabout, when entering. But in the circumstances I mention, I can't see that a car is approaching at 30-40mph from my right. It isn't yet on the mini roundabout, but by the time I have entered the roundabout, it is right up against my drivers door. Who has right of way?

Oh, tell me about it. We have a local mini-roundabout where the incoming traffic from the right is completely obscured by buildings until the very last moment. And often you'll already be on the roundabout and making your turn when some eejit will come blasting out of the blind entrance to the right and hooting at you to get out of his way because he's "got priority". (He hasn't - rule number one on entering roundabouts is that you're not supposed to collide with traffic that's already on it before you arrive.)

All the usual prejudices seem to hold water here. BMWs and go-faster Corsas are by far the worst offenders. :(

BJ

swill453
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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#132767

Postby swill453 » April 17th, 2018, 11:10 am

bungeejumper wrote:(He hasn't - rule number one on entering roundabouts is that you're not supposed to collide with traffic that's already on it before you arrive.)

I don't think that's in the Highway Code. Which set of rules is it you're talking about?

(Common sense doesn't count :D )

Scott.

vrdiver
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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#132770

Postby vrdiver » April 17th, 2018, 11:15 am

swill453 wrote:
bungeejumper wrote:(He hasn't - rule number one on entering roundabouts is that you're not supposed to collide with traffic that's already on it before you arrive.)

I don't think that's in the Highway Code. Which set of rules is it you're talking about?

(Common sense doesn't count :D )

Scott.

Section 185: Watch out for other road users on the roundabout...

VRD

swill453
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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#132773

Postby swill453 » April 17th, 2018, 11:24 am

vrdiver wrote:
swill453 wrote:
bungeejumper wrote:(He hasn't - rule number one on entering roundabouts is that you're not supposed to collide with traffic that's already on it before you arrive.)

I don't think that's in the Highway Code. Which set of rules is it you're talking about?

Section 185: Watch out for other road users on the roundabout...

Hmm, not explicitly as per the quote. And definitely not rule number one :D

Scott.

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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#132891

Postby Slarti » April 17th, 2018, 6:29 pm

GoSeigen wrote:Mini roundabouts are only located where the speed limit is 30 or below.



This one https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.34088 ... ,19z?hl=en isn't!

40mph from at least 2 directions, Woodham Lane, not sure about the other as I hardly ever use it.
I'll try to see in the morning.


Slarti

GoSeigen
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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#132919

Postby GoSeigen » April 17th, 2018, 8:12 pm

Slarti wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:Mini roundabouts are only located where the speed limit is 30 or below.



This one https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.34088 ... ,19z?hl=en isn't!

40mph from at least 2 directions, Woodham Lane, not sure about the other as I hardly ever use it.
I'll try to see in the morning.


Slarti


A roundabout I once used daily...


I was quoting the rules as posted above:

http://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/h ... td5407.pdf
Mini-roundabouts must only be used on roads with a speed limit of 30mph or less [...]

You have grounds for complaint I think. Get the limit reduced to 30.


GS

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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#133184

Postby Slarti » April 19th, 2018, 8:40 am

GoSeigen wrote:
Slarti wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:Mini roundabouts are only located where the speed limit is 30 or below.



This one https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.34088 ... ,19z?hl=en isn't!

40mph from at least 2 directions, Woodham Lane, not sure about the other as I hardly ever use it.
I'll try to see in the morning.


Slarti


A roundabout I once used daily...


I was quoting the rules as posted above:

http://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/h ... td5407.pdf
Mini-roundabouts must only be used on roads with a speed limit of 30mph or less [...]

You have grounds for complaint I think. Get the limit reduced to 30.


GS


I saw, yesterday morning, but had no time to post.
The 3rd road becomes 30mph after you leave the roundabout.

I don't want the speed reduced along there, not even actually on the roundabout.

Slarti

vrdiver
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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#147280

Postby vrdiver » June 22nd, 2018, 10:56 am

For those driving in Cambridgeshire, this might be one to look out for soon, based on Dutch design, cyclist/pedestrian prioritised:

https://www.petrolprices.com/news/cycli ... bold-move/

VRD

Clitheroekid
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Re: Red tarmac on mini-roundabouts

#147387

Postby Clitheroekid » June 22nd, 2018, 4:54 pm

vrdiver wrote:For those driving in Cambridgeshire, this might be one to look out for soon, based on Dutch design, cyclist/pedestrian prioritised:

https://www.petrolprices.com/news/cycli ... bold-move/

VRD

Looks like a recipe for disaster!


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