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Non-parking of driverless cars.

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88V8
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Non-parking of driverless cars.

#199889

Postby 88V8 » February 8th, 2019, 12:42 pm

Perhaps this is somewhat premature given that the stupid things haven't even arrived yet, but heard someone commenting on the wireless that owners could send their cars to drive round and around rather than paying for them to park whilst shopping for instance, thus clogging up the traffic.
https://www.netfutureinstitute.com/2019 ... se-around/
Given how selfish some people are, this seems eminently likely.

How to prevent? I suppose if one had nothing better to do, one could sit beside the road trying to spot the blobmobiles that are circulating, walk out in front to stop them and then superglue a Don't Do This notice to the windscreen, or just key the paintwork. Hopefully there is a better way to head off the problem.

I've written to my MP. He's a bit preoccupied with you know what, but no harm flagging the issue.

V8

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#199931

Postby didds » February 8th, 2019, 2:34 pm

certainly feasible in the short term... and already there are times where when me and mrs didds are out and one of us has a small errand to make it is known for one of us to drive round rather than find a parking space and walk back etc. This would just make it more of a norm I guess!

In the longer term there is the suggestion that personal ownership of driverless vehicles will disappear and they will become "orderable" on a need-to-use basis, leading to fewer vehicles in circulation (see what I did there?! ) as they won;t need to be parked up for long periods


didds

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#199933

Postby Lootman » February 8th, 2019, 2:45 pm

didds wrote:certainly feasible in the short term... and already there are times where when me and mrs didds are out and one of us has a small errand to make it is known for one of us to drive round rather than find a parking space and walk back etc. This would just make it more of a norm I guess!

In those situation it isn't always necessary to drive around. As long as the driver is in the vehicle you can usually park illegally and get away with it. I've never received a parking ticket whilst in the driving seat.

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#199936

Postby Watis » February 8th, 2019, 2:54 pm

didds wrote:certainly feasible in the short term... and already there are times where when me and mrs didds are out and one of us has a small errand to make it is known for one of us to drive round rather than find a parking space and walk back etc. This would just make it more of a norm I guess!

In the longer term there is the suggestion that personal ownership of driverless vehicles will disappear and they will become "orderable" on a need-to-use basis, leading to fewer vehicles in circulation (see what I did there?! ) as they won;t need to be parked up for long periods


didds



If driverless cars do replace our current 'driven' cars then I would like to know whether employers will accept an explanation of 'no cars were available when I was ready to leave for work' as an acceptable excuse for lateness.

And I can imagine that there will be much fun to be had organising vehicular 'flashmobs', where a bunch of people work together to summon all the available cars in an area at the same time, denying their use to the rest of the population for an hour or two.

Watis

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#200021

Postby jfgw » February 8th, 2019, 7:18 pm

88V8 wrote:How to prevent? I suppose if one had nothing better to do, one could sit beside the road trying to spot the blobmobiles that are circulating, walk out in front to stop them and then superglue a Don't Do This notice to the windscreen, or just key the paintwork. Hopefully there is a better way to head off the problem.


I am not convinced that vandalising something that has numerous cameras mounted upon it is a great idea.

There would have to be a way of instructing the vehicle to drive around and around for this to happen. If the software didn't have this feature (or actively prevented it), it would be difficult to implement.

Car parking should be more efficient. Cars could park close together side by side as no-one would need to get in or out of the doors. Cars could park several deep as any cars blocking a car which had been called by its owner could move out of the way.

Watis wrote:And I can imagine that there will be much fun to be had organising vehicular 'flashmobs', where a bunch of people work together to summon all the available cars in an area at the same time, denying their use to the rest of the population for an hour or two.


Maybe feasible in a very remote area. If, say, there are only 1000 cars within 20 minutes' drive away and, let's say, it costs £2 minimum to call a car, a group of 1000 troublemakers could cause 20 minutes' worth of havoc for only £2000.

Julian F. G. W.

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#200058

Postby gryffron » February 8th, 2019, 10:56 pm

didds wrote:In the longer term there is the suggestion that personal ownership of driverless vehicles will disappear and they will become "orderable" on a need-to-use basis, leading to fewer vehicles in circulation (see what I did there?! ) as they won;t need to be parked up for long periods

Will it though? Cars are a very aspirational purchase. People like their cars. They are a source of great pride for many people.
Also, they sound expsnsive if you pay for them by the hour. I bet most people would be horrified if they saw the real hourly or mileage cost of their motoring.

Whilst it may be very useful for people who don't currently own cars, I can't see many existing owners giving up their car for an on-demand service.

Gryff

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#200089

Postby sg31 » February 9th, 2019, 10:58 am

gryffron wrote:Will it though? Cars are a very aspirational purchase. People like their cars. They are a source of great pride for many people.
Also, they sound expsnsive if you pay for them by the hour. I bet most people would be horrified if they saw the real hourly or mileage cost of their motoring.

Whilst it may be very useful for people who don't currently own cars, I can't see many existing owners giving up their car for an on-demand service.

Gryff


To some extent people are already giving up ownership of a car in leasing them for a couple of years. Is it such a big step to lease them by the hour?

At my age and living in the country I can't imagine a system of hiring a car for a specific journey as required ever being viable in this area in my life time. Birmingham is 20 miles away, would a car come 20 miles to pick me up for a 7-10 mile trip? I can't see it being economically viable. By the time we can get cars stationed much nearer I think I will be beyond caring.

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#200100

Postby swill453 » February 9th, 2019, 11:50 am

sg31 wrote:At my age and living in the country I can't imagine a system of hiring a car for a specific journey as required ever being viable in this area in my life time. Birmingham is 20 miles away, would a car come 20 miles to pick me up for a 7-10 mile trip? I can't see it being economically viable. By the time we can get cars stationed much nearer I think I will be beyond caring.

I don't know how old you are, but in my opinion we won't see fully autonomous cars, able to handle normal UK roads, in the next 20 years anyway.

Scott.

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#200122

Postby Howard » February 9th, 2019, 1:58 pm

swill453 wrote:I don't know how old you are, but in my opinion we won't see fully autonomous cars, able to handle normal UK roads, in the next 20 years anyway.

Scott.


You could be right. I have driven a couple of cars with the latest cruise control (I know this isn't state of the art Californian style) but, whilst they are impressive from a technological standpoint there is still a major flaw in that they cannot interpret what is going on a few cars ahead.

As a human driver, it is possible to see that a car ahead, though it is not indicating, may be likely to turn left. The cruise control waits until the last second to react. This means that, if the car in front does turn, the cruise contro brakes much harder than is desirable and cars behind have to brake hard as well. As a (hopefully sensible) human driver in the same situation, I slow down a little to see what the car in front is likely to do, increasing the gap between us. This means that if the car turns, I seldom have to brake and if it doesn't turn, I gradually reduce the gap back to a sensible distance.

This situation can be even worse when one is in a fast moving queue of traffic on a country road and one can see that the potential turning car is, say, 10 cars ahead. Yes, electronics are getting cleverer but will they deal with these situations in the next few years? Perhaps only if human (indecisive) drivers are banned from the roads and everything is automatic.

And if one thinks that, yes, it's easy to develop software in the next few years, my question would be why don't planes land themselves? Landing a plane on an empty straight runway is surely a doddle compared with dealing with traffic on country or town roads.

regards

Howard

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#200128

Postby chas49 » February 9th, 2019, 2:49 pm

Howard wrote:
swill453 wrote:I don't know how old you are, but in my opinion we won't see fully autonomous cars, able to handle normal UK roads, in the next 20 years anyway.

Scott.


[snip]

And if one thinks that, yes, it's easy to develop software in the next few years, my question would be why don't planes land themselves? Landing a plane on an empty straight runway is surely a doddle compared with dealing with traffic on country or town roads.

regards

Howard


Boeing apparently looking at it...

Article from 2017: https://www.popularmechanics.com/flight ... airliners/

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#200139

Postby swill453 » February 9th, 2019, 3:37 pm

Howard wrote:This situation can be even worse when one is in a fast moving queue of traffic on a country road and one can see that the potential turning car is, say, 10 cars ahead. Yes, electronics are getting cleverer but will they deal with these situations in the next few years? Perhaps only if human (indecisive) drivers are banned from the roads and everything is automatic.

It's not just indecisive (or bad) human drivers they'll have to deal with. It's everything we all encounter (and handle, one way or another) on a typical UK high street - roadworks, double parking, inattentive pedestrians, mobility scooters, faulty traffic lights, police directing traffic, etc., etc.

Scott.

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#200146

Postby gryffron » February 9th, 2019, 4:10 pm

Planes have been capable of fully autonomous flight, including landing for decades. Bear in mind, they don't have to do this visually as there are electronic beacons and ILS systems to help. It's just that passengers, regulators and trade unions won't allow it.

We can't even get rid of train drivers, who are basically useless spectators at anything over crawling speed. It would be much better from a safety perspective to automate the driving and put the crew member in with the passengers. Try telling that to ASLEF.

Gryff

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#200286

Postby 88V8 » February 10th, 2019, 11:24 am

Our lane is very narrow, a few passing places but some of them have deep washouts.
So, these cars must be able to reverse, and decide whether the ground is suitable to drive onto.
Judging by drivers I meet in the lane, if they are designed by women, no chance. :)

V8

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#200314

Postby tjh290633 » February 10th, 2019, 2:03 pm

gryffron wrote:Planes have been capable of fully autonomous flight, including landing for decades. Bear in mind, they don't have to do this visually as there are electronic beacons and ILS systems to help. It's just that passengers, regulators and trade unions won't allow it.

We can't even get rid of train drivers, who are basically useless spectators at anything over crawling speed. It would be much better from a safety perspective to automate the driving and put the crew member in with the passengers. Try telling that to ASLEF.

Gryff

Autoland and Autoflare have been around for decades. BEA/BA used to announce if that had been used, as I recall. Up in the air, waypoints and heights get input into the autopilot or navigation system at the start of the flight. After that, barring untoward events, they let the aircraft get on with it.

The Dockland Light Railway and some tube lines run automatically, just needing human intervention to close the doors and start. I've been on a DLR train when the Train Captain had to use manual control to access the platform at Lewisham via a crossover.

TJH

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#200351

Postby DrFfybes » February 10th, 2019, 4:48 pm

88V8 wrote:Perhaps this is somewhat premature given that the stupid things haven't even arrived yet, but heard someone commenting on the wireless that owners could send their cars to drive round and around rather than paying for them to park whilst shopping for instance, thus clogging up the traffic.
https://www.netfutureinstitute.com/2019 ... se-around/
Given how selfish some people are, this seems eminently likely.
V8


Probably be irrelevant by then. Car park detection will reach a level where the car knows where the nearest space is, and just go there, and fit into a tiny space because the don't need to open a door, and even park several deep as they can easily swap themselves over when needed. Personal car ownership will also be on the wane as cars spend 90% of their time parked, so pool cars (a bit like current car clubs) will become much more common.

Paul

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#200384

Postby jfgw » February 10th, 2019, 6:44 pm

DrFfybes wrote:Probably be irrelevant by then. Car park detection will reach a level where the car knows where the nearest space is, and just go there, and fit into a tiny space because the don't need to open a door, and even park several deep as they can easily swap themselves over when needed.


The non-parking issue would be due to owners wanting to save on the cost of parking. Would councils and private parking businesses reduce their charges to make parking cheaper than driving?

I doubt whether cars will have a "keep driving in circles" option but it may be possible to send a car on a long journey and call it back. Maybe even send it home if it isn't too far away.

I think that a potentially greater problem is cars being told to park themselves in housing estates where parking is free. This is already a problem which is often dealt with by implementing a permit scheme.

DrFfybes wrote:Personal car ownership will also be on the wane as cars spend 90% of their time parked, so pool cars (a bit like current car clubs) will become much more common.


A cheap cab service. I can see this working. There will be no driver who needs to make a living so it could be cheaper to use cabs than to own a car.

Julian F. G. W.

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#200437

Postby 9873210 » February 11th, 2019, 12:54 am

I expect per mile user fees and congestion charging will be used to deal with this. Once it's cheaper to park than to drive around aimlessly people will tell their cars to park.

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#200446

Postby didds » February 11th, 2019, 6:51 am

swill453 wrote:It's not just indecisive (or bad) human drivers they'll have to deal with. It's everything we all encounter (and handle, one way or another) on a typical UK high street - roadworks, double parking, inattentive pedestrians, mobility scooters, faulty traffic lights, police directing traffic, etc., etc.

Scott.



absolutely

and emanmwhile in the rural environment that also includes tractyoirs turning out of field entrances with huge loads attached, moving slowly, on mud splattered roads, werrant sheep/cattle, deer dashing across the road , cattle being herded, black ice etc

didds

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#200492

Postby flyer61 » February 11th, 2019, 10:43 am

Very much looking forward to the days of driverless cars, campervans, trucks etc. I work in the south of England and live in the north. My hours do not fit with train times and there are no flights ergo I have to drive. Just imagine getting into bed and setting the time to arrive at my front door.
Or enjoying a night cap as I set off having pressed the big button marked HOME.

When you look into the sky those airliners up in the blue yonder are all talking to each other with a system called TCAS....and on the modern planes it is all automatic. It ensures they don't bump into each other. Technology is marching on.....open thine eyes and believe!

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Re: Non-parking of driverless cars.

#200496

Postby swill453 » February 11th, 2019, 10:53 am

flyer61 wrote:Very much looking forward to the days of driverless cars, campervans, trucks etc. I work in the south of England and live in the north. My hours do not fit with train times and there are no flights ergo I have to drive. Just imagine getting into bed and setting the time to arrive at my front door.
Or enjoying a night cap as I set off having pressed the big button marked HOME.

When you look into the sky those airliners up in the blue yonder are all talking to each other with a system called TCAS....and on the modern planes it is all automatic. It ensures they don't bump into each other. Technology is marching on.....open thine eyes and believe!

I hope you're very young :-) IMO you'd have to still be working in about 2040 to be able to take advantage of features like that.

(Planes only have to avoid each other. There's a few other obstacles down here on the ground to take into account...)

Scott.


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