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Two years with a plug-in hybrid

Passion, instruction, buying, care, maintenance and more, any form of vehicle discussion is welcome here
Howard
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Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#144638

Postby Howard » June 9th, 2018, 1:11 am

Having read questions from others about hybrid vehicles, I thought it might be helpful to share my experience with readers who might be considering a new hybrid or electric car.

Sadly Mrs H’s lease car had to go back after two years of trouble-free driving. I would have extended the lease, but due to the economics of personal leasing (and the good deal I got initially) the cost would go up nearly £100 a month and Mrs H wants a smaller car as her driving involves a lot of short trips and parallel parking in busy situations.

The car covered only 12,000 miles in two years. Much of Mrs H’s driving involved short trips of around 10 miles.

It was a BMW 330 E.

Good points:

In two years the car only visited a dealer once, for its service due last week.

Two engines in a 3 series have meant that on shopping trips the car was quiet and docile. However, on a longer drive, seamless power was delivered whenever required! The car was a joy to drive. My wife achieved amazing economy whilst I had the fun of huge torque delivered incredibly quietly. One had to be very careful not to exceed the speed limit on a motorway because the car remained very quiet at high speed.

Satnav, radio, music etc all easy to use. The facility to send a location to the car from a laptop in advance of a journey was a great facility.

Electric drive is incredibly relaxing and smooth. Obviously one had to be careful to drive slowly near pedestrians as the car was very quiet in a car park situation. On a full charge, the car would go for around 14 miles on electric power only, provided the speed was below 65mph.

There was never any range anxiety, as the car had a range of more than 400 miles on a long trip.

I was interested in monitoring the fuel consumption and so measured it over two years on a spreadsheet recording the actual petrol consumed.
Over 11,292 miles the car used 726.05 litres of petrol. So, ignoring electricity consumed, it achieved 70.8 mpg.

The car was charged most evenings and I estimate that over two years it consumed around £240 of electricity.

If one notionally converts the £240 into litres of petrol, at say an average of £1.20 per litre that would be the equivalent of using an additional 200 litres of fuel. This gives a notional total consumption of 926.05 litres and an overall notional fuel consumption of 55.5 mpg.

So, not bad for a powerful car used mainly for short runs.

Bad points

Only criticism was that the low profile tyres and laser cut alloy wheels were vulnerable to scratching on kerbs. I think I will be charged for repairing the marks on one of the wheels. I did wonder before getting the car whether it would have too firm a ride (and chose the luxury model, not the sport) but was pleasantly surprised by the comfort and quietness of the suspension.

What next?

Given Mrs H’s preference for a smaller car I looked for another smaller hybrid available on a personal lease. A VW Golf hybrid seemed ideal, but the delivery quote was around a year and the leasing cost prohibitive. I tested a new Nissan Leaf which was very impressive, quiet and smooth to drive. But a bit too big. There was an opportunity to drive a BMW i3, lent to me as a courtesy car but after a “normal” 3 series, I’m afraid I disliked the weird design, strange doors, hardboard effect interior trim, hard ride and the feeling of slight instability at motorway speeds.

So in the end the replacement is a Golf 1.4 petrol. When it is time to change my car, however, a hybrid or electric car will be a strong contender.

I was very sad to see the BMW go today - a super car!

regards

Howard

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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#144667

Postby bungeejumper » June 9th, 2018, 9:59 am

Thanks for that. I'm pretty sure that hybrids will be the way to go until the day finally dawns when fully electric cars have enough range, and when the charging infrastructure is in place. I did think about getting a hybrid instead of the 1.6 petrol Toyota that I eventually bought (18 months old), but I figured that the fuel saving would have been only about £200 a year on my annual 10,000 miles, and that it would have taken me an awfully long time to recoup the extra £4,000 that the car was going to cost me up front. ;) Would be quite interested to hear how the same calculation would have worked out on your wife's 6,000 miles a year?

A little bit O/T, but you can sort out a smallish scrape on a diamond cut wheel, using a bit of wet and dry and a touch-up with clear lacquer - I've done it a couple of times (dammit, dammit, dammit :evil: ). Takes maybe 15 minutes. It doesn't work if the "scratch" has actually been more like a proper gouge, although I think you can probably buy fillers even for that.

BJ

Howard
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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#144672

Postby Howard » June 9th, 2018, 10:33 am

Bungeejumper

Thanks for your comments. I didn't really do a calculation on costs when choosing the car two years ago because we had the good fortune to be changing the car when the Government were offering a £5000 grant towards the costs of buying/leasing a hybrid car. This distorted the decision in favour of a hybrid. It also explains the hike in the quote for extending the lease.

The wheel damage was a "gouge", mainly caused by hitting a pothole in the braking area of a dual carriageway just before a roundabout at about 30mph but with the weight of the car on the front wheels. I'm sure any home remedy by me would not have passed the eagle-eyed inspection carried out by the inspector who checked the (almost immaculate) car before it was collected. I was impressed by his thoroughness. He suggested that the wheel repair cost would be £60, which was less than I expected - but I haven't seen the bill yet.

kind regards

Howard

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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#144763

Postby Hardgrafter » June 9th, 2018, 7:45 pm

An interesting discussion. I do not have a hybrid, but my current car is a similar size (Skoda Octavia 1.4 TSI petrol 140hp with DSG auto,as available in a VW Golf), has achieved 53.5 mpg overall since new (now 26000 miles). So basically the same mpg as the hybrid BMW. And almost as silent (except for the auto stop/start).

Maybe in the BMW, the hybrid is masking a relatively inefficient petrol engine or auto box.

Howard
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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#144766

Postby Howard » June 9th, 2018, 8:16 pm

Hardgrafter

That sounds good. I will be delighted if our new Golf 1.4 DSG achieves the fuel consumption you are experiencing. Our second car does lots of small journeys so this would be an excellent result. Did you measure this yourself? I ask because our recent cars all recorded optimistic fuel consumption figures on their computers.

The BMW had the power and torque of a three litre engine and I admit that I used to put my foot down on the motorway. Having test driven the Golf I know my future acceleration will be much more restrained!

regards

Howard

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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#144777

Postby moorfield » June 10th, 2018, 12:02 am

bungeejumper wrote:Thanks for that. I'm pretty sure that hybrids will be the way to go until the day finally dawns when fully electric cars have enough range, and when the charging infrastructure is in place.


I think so, certainly in urban areas in the near future. I'm still not fully convinced electric will be the way to go in rural areas (Scotland in midwinter, flooded road in Somerset, for example?). The Govt has been sensible with its timing (so far) and put the industry on 22 years notice. Until it realizes that congestion/emissions charging and fuel duties continue to pluck the feathers it needs once Brexit is done, of course .... ;)

The challenge of "range" brings interesting investment opportunities, which BP are already cottoning on to. Expect to be rubbernecking more of this on motorway hard shoulders within the next decade ... at which point we will know EVs are viable.

https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/ ... rging.html

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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#144947

Postby DrFfybes » June 11th, 2018, 12:59 pm

A very interesting summary - out of interest was the lease cost much different to a conventional powertrain?

I see you charged every night - this obviously helps and is not an option for a lot of people. Sure, there are on-street facilities becoming available, but to be honest the supporting infrastructure isn't really up to scratch in wide areas of the country. As an example in Devon there are typically 60-80 areas with no supply to the street lights at any one time down to issues with the supply cabling, and that's once the issues of payment for use of and connection to unmetered supplies is addressed.

Then again, 2040 is a long way off, 22 years ago people were moaning about the expense of fitting catalytic converters to everything, and broadband and mobile comms were seen as mainly business use or luxury items.

Paul

Howard
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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#144993

Postby Howard » June 11th, 2018, 5:29 pm

Dr Ffybes

In answer to your question, the cost of leasing the hybrid two years ago was very competitive with a similar conventional 2.0 litre petrol BMW. So given it would be used for many trips less than 10 miles and we could charge using a 13amp power socket in our garage, the more powerful and eco friendly option was a no-brainer. Now, with a smaller subsidy than the £5k two years ago, the cost of renting an identical new model would be over £400 per month, which is much more than I paid. To be honest, I chose the car because it was a very good deal at the time. Mrs H accepted it but has now put her foot down (figuratively) and insisted that the replacement is smaller, hence the Golf.

As you may know, the personal lease market can seem a bit illogical to a consumer. The monthly cost of renting a car can depend on whether it is in stock somewhere or on incentives in the supply chain. I would have chosen another hybrid if I could have found a competitive deal, but the petrol Golf offer was compelling. I gave a local dealer the chance to quote but his figure was around £90 a month more than I negotiated with a big main dealer on the internet. This was for a factory build to my specification and includes servicing and replacement tyres. It is worth shopping around.

When I decide to change my own car I will definitely try to find a hybrid as a replacement. A 5 series looks tempting!

regards

Howard

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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#145055

Postby Hardgrafter » June 11th, 2018, 10:42 pm

Howard - the Octavia mpg is the average over the last 9999km as recorded by the on board computer. i have no reason to doubt its veracity, but will check it using the 'average since last refill' function just to be sure.

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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#145108

Postby tjh290633 » June 12th, 2018, 9:12 am

Hardgrafter wrote:Howard - the Octavia mpg is the average over the last 9999km as recorded by the on board computer. i have no reason to doubt its veracity, but will check it using the 'average since last refill' function just to be sure.

The odds are that the figure which you get is at least 10% on the high side. My on board computer tells me that I have done 45mpg, when gallons added to fill the tank calculates to 40mpg. The only reliable measure is total gallons bought divided by total miles covered, from tank full to tank full.

I doubt that the Octavia's is any better.

TJH

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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#145115

Postby Dod101 » June 12th, 2018, 9:31 am

I am confused. There is obviously more than one type of hybrid. My son in law has a hybrid Toyota but there is no need to plug it in anywhere as the petrol engine recharges the battery for him so that would help with the lack of plug in points.

The other subject. It would be interesting to know what the finance costs are on a personal leasing deal. I am old fashioned and apparently unusual as I just give them a cheque when I buy a new car. No finance costs and I know exactly what the expense. I have always been wary of any finance deal because where there is spare cash to pay commission to the dealer I have a fairly good idea who is actually paying for that.

Dod

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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#145133

Postby Urbandreamer » June 12th, 2018, 11:12 am

Dod101 wrote:I am confused. There is obviously more than one type of hybrid. My son in law has a hybrid Toyota but there is no need to plug it in anywhere as the petrol engine recharges the battery for him so that would help with the lack of plug in points.
..
Dod


There are indeed many types of "hybrid". Hybrid cars usually come in two forms. The likes of the original Prius which used petrol to provide all motive force (ie charges the smaller batteries using petrol), and the later plug-in hybrids that can use mains electricity for motive force. The plug in hybrid can of course run on wind power, hence as more wind energy comes on line their emmissions go down. Also (just talking fuel costs) mains electricity is considerably cheaper than petrol. Finally (with respect to the earlier comment about rural life), fuel stations may be infrequent in some parts but most/all homes seem to have electricity.

Plug in hybrids have additional capital and running costs (large batteries are expensive and don't last forever), hence we can't really lump all hybrids together.

The capital costs are why I am unlikely to buy one, however much they apeal to me.

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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#145139

Postby Dod101 » June 12th, 2018, 11:44 am

Urbandreamer wrote:[ The plug in hybrid can of course run on wind power, hence as more wind energy comes on line their emmissions go down.


I was amused at that quote but I assume the plug in hybrid runs indirectly on wind power. My imagination working overtime there.

Anyway I am grateful for the info because I suddenly realise I know very little about all of this.

Dod

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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#145147

Postby Howard » June 12th, 2018, 11:57 am

Dod

Yes, you are right. As Urbandreamer has explained, there are at least two variations of hybrids. My wife’s car was a plug-in hybrid. If charged fully from the mains, it would travel for around 14 miles on electric only. Like all hybrids, it charged the battery when braking and going down hill. If left to its own devices and not driven in sports mode it used electrical power very cleverly. If a destination was set in the satnav, the car would use electric power in 30 or 40 mph limits and literally around 100 yards before going onto a derestricted road the petrol engine would come on seamlessly and take over at higher speeds. The car would save power if it knew the end of the journey was a city, so where possible it only used electricity once going back into a 30 mph zone. Going down a hill at speed the same thing happened, electric power only downhill and just before the bottom of the hill, the petrol engine came on ready for the uphill section. This was only obvious to the driver if he or she watched the rev counter to see when the petrol engine came on. It was not apparent to passengers.

Re you leasing question: I can’t explain the economics but the facts are that sometimes leasing can be more attractive than buying a new car outright. The P11D value of the BMW (list price) for the specification I chose was £37,280. The total cost of leasing the car for two years including maintenance and tyre cover was under £8,000 for a mileage of up to 16,000. This included the broker’s commission and BMW finance costs but obviously excludes petrol costs (and a possible final cost for the repair of a scratched alloy - see earlier post).

To me this was a good deal. No worries about depreciation, batteries, service etc on what was in 2016 a totally new model of car. And no hassle of arranging a trade-in for a new car.

In contrast, my own car, a Mercedes purchased by cheque at a good discount will suffer from higher depreciation because it is a diesel. (I was pleased it was considered very “green” to own a diesel when I purchased it in 2012 but that’s another story.)

I’m sad enough to have recorded the ownership costs of all my cars since 2000 and used to pay by cheque. Usually I received an excellent discount off the retail price, but I have come to the conclusion that at this time of low interest rates, it may be cheaper to lease a car than buy outright. I came to this conclusion from realising that the cost of owning a modest UK-made family car owned for six years, was around £3k per year because of its depreciation, service and tyre costs. And it only achieved a genuine 29 mpg despite its computer telling me it was doing close to 40 mpg.

Out of interest, Dod, I see that one can personally lease an Audi Q5 from around £350 a month (with a fairly hefty initial payment) for a basic model (Contract Hire and Leasing.com). I think you have previously written that you drive a Q5. You may be interested to comment on whether you think that is a good deal?

regards

Howard

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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#145169

Postby Howard » June 12th, 2018, 1:00 pm

PS

I should add that the lease costs quoted above include road tax. Insurance is arranged by the driver and is extra. It cost the same as for a privately owned car.

Howard

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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#145200

Postby Dod101 » June 12th, 2018, 2:33 pm

Howard
Many thanks for the details you have provided. Very interesting.

Re leasing v owning outright my Q5, I would need to take a look at all the figures. I will try and then post again. Many thanks for all of that. It is an approach I had not thought of.

Dod

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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#147124

Postby Hardgrafter » June 21st, 2018, 1:45 pm

TJH,

I refilled my Octavia this morning. The calculated consumption from last fill up (same fuel station pump) was only 1.8% more than that shown on the on the board computer between fill ups.

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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#147159

Postby bungeejumper » June 21st, 2018, 5:10 pm

Hardgrafter wrote:I refilled my Octavia this morning. The calculated consumption from last fill up (same fuel station pump) was only 1.8% more than that shown on the on the board computer between fill ups.

I'm not sure that a single tankful will give you a firm enough figure to be quoting calculations down to an accuracy of a tenth of a percentage point. I follow my car's mpg rather nerdishly (because my accounts spreadsheet makes it easy to do that), but I wouldn't feel safe basing a calc on less than three or four tankfuls. But OK, the question here is whether the onboard computer is calibrated well enough to take account of the variables under normal circumstances.

Obviously, such variables can include the type of driving (obviously), the weather, the month, the use (or otherwise) of aircon, and so on. My petrol Toyota does about 7 mpg worse in winter than in summer, although that might be partly because I tend to hit the open road more often in July/August.

With diesels, there's the added question of whether you're running on winter or summer fuel. (From October till March you'll get fewer mpg because the diesel sold on the forecourt is thinner and contains less energy per litre.) I'll bet you that the onboard computer isn't calibrated to take account of that. :lol:

BJ

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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#147163

Postby staffordian » June 21st, 2018, 5:28 pm

bungeejumper wrote:
With diesels, there's the added question of whether you're running on winter or summer fuel. (From October till March you'll get fewer mpg because the diesel sold on the forecourt is thinner and contains less energy per litre.) I'll bet you that the onboard computer isn't calibrated to take account of that. :lol:

BJ

Surely, as long as the car measures the volume of fuel the engine is using and the distance travelled, then divides the latter by the former, the rest is irrelevant?

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Re: Two years with a plug-in hybrid

#147164

Postby bungeejumper » June 21st, 2018, 5:34 pm

staffordian wrote:Surely, as long as the car measures the volume of fuel the engine is using and the distance travelled, then divides the latter by the former, the rest is irrelevant?

Of course. But if the car is 'naturally' more fuel-efficient in summer and less efficient in winter, because of fuel density, then trying to use the onboard computer as a year-round benchmark for comparisons is going to run into problems. Even the best one will be way off the achievable mark during certain months. Just saying.

BJ


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