Over complexity

[redsturgeon]

I have just taken delivery of my new Golf Tsi SE Nav and it drives very nicely. One issue that bugs me is the complexity of modern cars though talking specifically about the controls and satnav infotainment systems.

I regularly drive one of three cars, a basic four year old Fiesta, a 2 year old BMW hybrid and now the new Golf. Each one seems to add on a new layer of complexity.

The Fiesta is a basic five speed manual with no satnav and a basic radio/cd/mp3 player, with a manual handbrake. It has all of 67 bhp and anyone who has passed their test in a manual car would be more than capable of jumping in and driving anywhere. It actually is all the car anyone really needs and I have driven it on 200+ mile journeys with no problems...it will cruise happily on the motorway all day at the national speed limit, with judicious gear changes it keeps up with traffic, it handles well and has ICE and AC along with electric windows, central locking etc...25 years ago this would have been a top specced car. Now it is my son and daughter's basic hack!

The BMW is my wife's car, automatic, with full sat nav, bluetooth, voice controls, reversing camera, auto hybrid control to feed the power from either engine to each set of wheels as necessary. It is very relaxing car to jump into and drive away with little thought required.

My new Golf is by no means top of the range but comes complete with 350 page manual plus separate 70 page manual for the "infotainment" system.
48 hours after delivery I am still working my way through it.

It has active cruise control (ie. it will follow the car in front at a set distance, braking and accelerating as necessary). It has lane control that will keep the car with the lanes on a motorway. It has various parking assist functions in conjunction with the rear view camera. If it was a DSG model it would also have something called Traffic Jam Assist but unless that fires heat seeking missiles then I'm not sure how useful it would be.

The satnav gives comprehensive up to date traffic warnings on the touch screen that you can zoom into to get more details. The large touch control screen also functions as a "performance monitor" with three large dials giving real time; turbo charge pressure, g-force and engine power output...it will also function as a lap timer the next time I take my 1.4 Golf on the race track!

I could go on but I'm less than half way through the manuals!

My main point is that cars are just becoming to complex to drive unless you completely ignore all the extra stuff that manufacturers seem to want to cram in. This Golf is still fun to drive and has more BHP and better handling than my first Golf Gti of 30 years ago but that being a much lighter package* was probably more fun (or is that just viewed through the prism of youth?).

Oh well, first world problems I suppose. The sun is shining I might just go for a drive...now why didn't I get the soft top?

John

* VW Golf GTi mk1 kerb weight 810kgs, 108.5 BHP, 4 speed, 0-60 9.2 secs, top speed 113 mph.

VW Golf 1.4 TSi kerb weight 1246kgs, 122 BHP, 6 speed, 0-60 9.0 secs, top speed 120mph.

[dspp]

One issue that bugs me is the complexity of modern cars though talking specifically about the controls and satnav infotainment systems.

Then get a Tesla.

If you sit in or use a Tesla and have any appreciation of product design or manufacture, then what you rapidly realise is everything that is either just not there, or is completely hidden.

It is as if the designer pulled apart the peer cars (BMW, Audi, Porsche, Mercedes, LR, Lexus) and started throwing away every switch, control, nozzle, vent and hiding all the complexity into one touch-screen, and a couple of stalks. There is a fantastic amount of stuff available to fiddle with if you want, otherwise it just opens up, gets ready to drive, and delivers you relevant information only when you need it.

It is simply the best user interface (UI) I have encountered in my life.

What is more every time they issue a software revision (that downloads and installs automatically if you have granted the permissions) you get an updated vehicle. To paraphrase a colleague with one, "I have a four year old supercar that is still only one day old, despite daily use".

regards, dspp

[redsturgeon]

One issue that bugs me is the complexity of modern cars though talking specifically about the controls and satnav infotainment systems.

Then get a Tesla.

If you sit in or use a Tesla and have any appreciation of product design or manufacture, then what you rapidly realise is everything that is either just not there, or is completely hidden.

It is as if the designer pulled apart the peer cars (BMW, Audi, Porsche, Mercedes, LR, Lexus) and started throwing away every switch, control, nozzle, vent and hiding all the complexity into one touch-screen, and a couple of stalks. There is a fantastic amount of stuff available to fiddle with if you want, otherwise it just opens up, gets ready to drive, and delivers you relevant information only when you need it.

It is simply the best user interface (UI) I have encountered in my life.

What is more every time they issue a software revision (that downloads and installs automatically if you have granted the permissions) you get an updated vehicle. To paraphrase a colleague with one, "I have a four year old supercar that is still only one day old, despite daily use".

regards, dspp

I was considering a Model 3 but I'd rather have a car built in a factory than a tent

https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-fremo ... structure/

John

[PinkDalek]

I was considering a Model 3 but I'd rather have a car built in a factory than a tent

https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-fremo ... structure/

John

Thwack viewtopic.php?p=148068#p148068

Only mentioned for those who don't know there's a 430 post thread at Macro and Global Topics.

[bungeejumper]

My new Golf is by no means top of the range but comes complete with 350 page manual plus separate 70 page manual for the "infotainment" system. 48 hours after delivery I am still working my way through it.

That sounds about right for a Volkswagen - both my old Passat and my wife's 59 reg Golf came with huge ring-bound tomes, much of which were taken up with totally irrelevant information. The phrase "** may not be included on your model" will soon be driving you nuts. That's because the Golf manual covers just about every European variant - I would expect it to include info on Scandinavian pre-heaters, North African full-length glass sunroofs and every conceivable added-cost refinement, regardless of whether it's even an option in your country. The only concession they'll have made to the UK market is that the cabin controls will have been described and illustrated in RHD terms.

Well, maybe. My UK Passat's manual had a mistake in which the electrics - the fuse boxes and so forth - were transposed from left to right, because VW had neglected to adjust for the fact that the fuse boxes are reversed on RHD models. (Such are the complexities of bulkhead layout on RHD cars.) An entire generation of Passat owners are still scratching their heads about why removing the fuse for the electric windows stops the indicator flashers instead.

But if we're honest, reading the manual from end to end is a bit nerdy-male anyway, isn't it? The only bits that I usually need to know are how to set the cruise control (which can vary a lot from car to car); how to navigate the sound system; and how to know the difference between "the effing window winders don't work" and "the effing window winders don't work because I've accidentally pressed the child-proof window lock button."

Everything else, I'm prepared to figure out as I go along. That is, until the dark night when the dashboard suddenly goes bong-bong-bong to tell me something important, and I have to scrabble for the manual to find out whether it means my brakes have catastrophically failed or whether I'm just running low on screenwash. Or whether its eye movement sensor thinks I'm nodding off to sleep and need something stimulating to keep me interested. Thanks guys, it's the thought that counts.

BJ

[bungeejumper]

What is more every time they issue a software revision (that downloads and installs automatically if you have granted the permissions) you get an updated vehicle. To paraphrase a colleague with one, "I have a four year old supercar that is still only one day old, despite daily use".

Let's hope they haven't employed any Windows people, then.

"Hi, we're making some changes to your car"

"It's part of our drive to enhance your user experience, and to fix that pesky little bug with not spotting stationary vehicles. Just sit tight, relax and enjoy the ride."

"This may take a little while. Or maybe quite a long while actually. During the installation your car may restart several times. We hope you're not planning on doing any driving for the next hour?"

"Your dashboard will go blank repeatedly. Relax, there's nothing to worry about. Just sit back and enjoy the view while we get to work. Try to ignore all the people yelling at you to get out of the damn road."

"This update is now 11% completed. We'll let you know when we're finished. In the meantime, here's a silly little wheel that goes round and round and round and round"

"Do not turn off your car while this installation is in progress. Hey, we said [i]do not turn off your car…."

"Sigh. Okay, smart ass, looks like we have to do it all over again from the start."

BJ

[tjh290633]

I am reminded of the VW Beetle of 1958 and later. Maximum speed 68 mph, cruising speed 68 mph. Only a speedometer, but there was a reserve fuel tank accessed by a toe operated tap under the fuel tank. It helped if you remembered to return it to the off setting after refuelling.

Looking at the maintenance manual revealed that most operations required that the engine be removed. It only cost 30/=, though. The 1500 mile interval service cost the same and consisted of greasing the king pins.

Speeds in the gears stated as 15, 30, 45 and 68. They recommended that you accelerate at full throttle to your desired speed. 38 mpg consistently on regular fuel, with the addition of 8 gallons after 308 miles filling the tank under the front bonnet.

The people's car was simple to own and operate, helped by air cooling (which provided saloon heating when needed) and the engine weight over the driven wheels. Very good in the snow, provided that you kept the revs down.

Instruments? Pah!

TJH

[tea42]

I have a 9 month old Eurobox, it has all that stuff, most of which is irrelavent. I think its boring, and the complexity is a PITA.

I have 3 VW Air Cooled tee shirts. They are in tribute to my 1980 VW25 Air Cooled Moonraker Camper. The Camper is a fun drive, its not quick, 60 max, there is no power steering, you sit up high right up front. Is simple and fun. I have a magnetic mount for my phone which connects wirelessly via an £8.99 Ebay device to a decent Pioneer radio. So hands free Navigation phone and Music is a breeze, no manual required. It fits into a 2.4m x 4.8m standard parking space, and… you can make a cuppa or have a kip anywhere. Its by far my preferred vehicle. I could afford a modern 'builders van' Camper but there is just something great about these old buses…

[bungeejumper]

Looking at the maintenance manual revealed that most operations required that the engine be removed. It only cost 30/=, though. The 1500 mile interval service cost the same and consisted of greasing the king pins.

If memory serves, you removed the engine by unscrewing eight large bolts, whereupon the entire engine could be slid out backwards, still attached to the rear subframe which had also come out with it.

Or, to be more precise, you put an axle stand under the engine, loosened the bolts, and then then rolled the car away from its engine. Took about 45 minutes.

The same went for the vans and the campervans. Happy days.

The people's car was simple to own and operate, helped by air cooling (which provided saloon heating when needed) and the engine weight over the driven wheels.

We had a Fiat 500 Topolino, which was designed on the same rear-engined principle. It would take two minutes to hit 65 mph, but it would keep up that speed all the way down to the south of France. (Yes, we did that too.)

The main disadvantage with using the cylinder head fins as a cabin heater was that the car would fill up with oily fumes on a hot day. But hey, what else was the compulsory sunroof there for? Open it up, pong gone!

BJ

[ten0rman]

And it's not limited to cars. We have just bought a new caravan, almost bottom of the range due to towing weight requirements.
It has (old caravan details in brackets):
a fridge electronically controlled from two locations (a set of manually operated rocker and rotary controls located on the fridge itself);
3 or 4 different types of LED lighting, one of which is dimmable (5 low voltage fluorescents);
a CD/radio which automatically switches itself on when 12v power is connected (nothing!);
a set of electronic controls for water heating & room heating (water heating by thermostat only, room heating by manually operated gas heater).

We've had 2 and a half weeks in it already and still haven't worked out some of the controls. Unfortunately, it also has some problems: a fascia panel comes loose whilst travelling; the water pump causes the dimmable lights to flash on & off; the fridge decided to switch itself off completely at one point necessitating a full power down then up to reset it.

It does have some good stuff, eg the built in tracker system, but why, oh why does it have to be so complicated to operate the darned thing - it's a holiday we want, not multi-hours studying the manuals. I hate to think what the more up market ones are like.

Regards,

ten0rman

[bungeejumper]

We've had 2 and a half weeks in it already and still haven't worked out some of the controls. Unfortunately, it also has some problems: a fascia panel comes loose whilst travelling; the water pump causes the dimmable lights to flash on & off; the fridge decided to switch itself off completely at one point necessitating a full power down then up to reset it.

It does have some good stuff, eg the built in tracker system, but why, oh why does it have to be so complicated to operate the darned thing - it's a holiday we want, not multi-hours studying the manuals. I hate to think what the more up market ones are like.

Some very good friends of ours bought a reasonably posh (but manageably sized) touring caravan a few years ago, and although they love it dearly (and spend endless weeks away in it), it does seem that every small thing requires a wallet transplant of some sort.

Whether it's a gas ring that won't go fully on, or a problem with the under-cupboard lighting, or a sticky brake, or (on one occasion) a peeling roof panel seal that was letting all the rain in ), they do seem to have to rely on expensive repairers a lot. And this is a couple who until recently would replace the brakes, shocks and suspension units on their own cars, and who have recently remodelled their house with their own hands, so they're not exactly DIY know-nothings.

O/T, but I, on the other hand, have given up trying to use the household appliances in AirBnb homes because they make me feel ancient. Instead of a television there's probably a Netflix terminal in which getting an ordinary TV programme is a technological challenge with bafflingly uncertain consequences. Instead of a coffee percolator there's likely to be a Nespresso, whatever that is. And neither of us would dare tangle with the intelligent net-enabled washing machine for fear that it would (a) eavesdrop on us or (b) emit thick blue smoke at our manifest technological ineptitude. That's progress, I suppose?

BJ

[Howard]

We too have just acquired a virtually identical Golf, but with auto (DSG) gearbox.

The manual is ok and, whilst I agree with Redsturgeon re length, it relates pretty closely to the UK model with a few extras thrown in. However I'd guess around one third to a half of the paragraphs relate to safety information. Most as complex as the "look at the road while you are driving" "don't shut your hand in the door" variety.

This may be a counter-intuitive (and controversial?) comment but as dspp suggests for the Tesla, in my experience more upmarket cars tend to be simpler to drive. A good example is the speed limiter and cruise control initiator. Mrs H likes the former and I like the latter. On her previous BMW the steering wheel control setting was simple and could be switched easily. My Mercedes has a stalk which is even easier to use and the previous setting is remembered by the car.

The new VW requires IT skills to programme the speed limiter and a superb memory to recall how to set a new speed without looking at the button and the dashboard display whilst driving at speed (and ignoring the "look at the road ........" safety advice). The cruise control requires even higher computer skills to operate and, for a driver who likes to anticipate the road ahead, introduces a new challenge - either slow down gently for an obvious blockage ahead or wait until the computer's radar sees the blockage and brakes more heavily.

I'm currently renting a Focus with a limiter and cruise control which is almost as complex as the Golf's and from memory, every smaller car I've rented has this problem, none are as simple as the Merc.

Finally, the VW touchscreen infomation system seems to me to be much more difficult to use when driving than a twist button system as used by BMW and Mercedes. I tried to use the Focus touchscreen but gave up and stuck my trusty Tomtom on the windscreen instead.

regards

Howard

[kiloran]

Finally, the VW touchscreen infomation system seems to me to be much more difficult to use when driving than a twist button system as used by BMW and Mercedes. I tried to use the Focus touchscreen but gave up and stuck my trusty Tomtom on the windscreen instead.

Howard

I hate the idea of a touchscreen in a car, I can't see how they can be safe. We're not allowed to use a smartphone while on the move, so how is an inbuilt touch screen any different? With buttons and knobs, with the tactile feedback they provide, it's far easier to keep your eyes on the road.

However, since touchscreens are cheap and easy to enhance by programming new features, I don't think it will be long until all cars have them and buttons and knobs will be consigned to the bin.

--kiloran

[tjh290633]

I'm with you on this. It must be over 20 years since I drove a car with cruise control, in the USA, and that had buttons on the steering wheel. Our current cars have radio control buttons on the steering wheel. One of the most dangerous operations has to be changing discs in the CD player, as it is impossible to open a case with one hand. Presumably using MP3 requires using a touch screen. These operations, and setting a satnav, really call for the help of a navigator.

Oh for the days of flying a light aircraft around the sky with a 1 million map on your knee and the help of a DF operator if you were unsure of your position (lost, in other words). Today's equivalent is relying on road signs without a map, when your intended route is blocked.

TJH

[kiloran]

Presumably using MP3 requires using a touch screen. These operations, and setting a satnav, really call for the help of a navigator.

TJH

No, no touchscreen required. I have around 2000 MP3 songs on a USB memory stick, and I have a knob in the centre console by my left hand. I don't have to take my eyes off the road to find the knob. I can search for and select albums/artists/tracks/playlists by twiddling the knob, with only quick glances at the screen. Generally, I just play them all in a random sequence so I don't have any need to select anything while driving.

I never set the satnav while driving, except for using the same knob to adjust the zoom level occasionally

Switching the knob between Radio/Media/Satnav functionality is done by buttons on the dashboard, which I can easily locate by feel. Not possible with a touchscreen (unless it has exceptional haptics capability which I suspect is still years in the future)

--kiloran

[Pastcaring]

Modern cars frighten me,being a Luddite my

My newest car is 17 years old now,Ford Fairlane,basically one of those big New York taxis,the CD stacker has just broken,I am broken hearted,can't find an installer anywhere for a new one.

The XJ 8 is late 1990,s fairly complicated but I can manage it.

The best one is the 1975 merc 450 SL,still with the original blaupunkt radio cassette.I can work on that one.The only problem with it is the old sliding levers for A/C and heating.Twenty or so different positions,most of which I never remember.Modern car climate control systems on the Jag and Fairlane are great.

Everything is too complicated for me these days,I never kept up with anything

Even the home stereo is 2 mono amplifiers,one driving each channel.With a record player and records.

One day I might make into the 1980 s.

[DrFfybes]

Oh well, first world problems I suppose. The sun is shining I might just go for a drive...now why didn't I get the soft top?

Because as soon as you hit traffic in this heat you put the roof back up and turn on the aircon.
And get sunburnt.

I think we lowered the roof about 4 times in our MR2 in 7 years.

As for the rest - far too complicated.

The salesman can't understand you don't want Nav as the tomtom you have works the same way in all of your cars and you can buy a new one for the cost of an update for the car system.

I looked at a Jag F type the other day - looked like a video arcade. It was on the Eurotunnel. The owner managed to start it by accident during the journey and then spent half the trip with the brake lights on.

Paul