The Lemon Fool

I found out (by accident) that Robert Llewellyn, better know as Kryten from Red Dwarf is a huge advocate of electric cars and has a Youtube show all about them.

As there has been some discussion on electric vehicles and hybrids, I thought this might interest a few people on here.

The show seems to be pretty popular as Youtube report over 300,000 subscribers. I cannot comment on the production quality as I only learned this existed today from an audio only podcast interview.

Regards,

B.

I'm enjoying it. I'm no car enthusiast, but they present well, and cover a range of electric issues with generation and batteries, so its not all car porn.

I had a chance to watch a couple of episodes last night and very much enjoyed the pace, far more relaxed than the frantic ranty delivery adopted by many TV shows.

While off topic for this board, the one where he gets a Tesla Powerwall following a successful claim on PPI was as fascinating as TV can get when the show entails a couple of outdoor shots and a long chat in the garage.

Was quite interested to see how small the Powerwall is, about the same size a storage heater but considerably slimmer - Still weighs 120 kilos and £6,000 mind you.

Also interesting was the way the range on pure electric vehicles is getting larger fast. I recall an earlier post describing life with a Nissan Leaf and the worrying small practical range. 300 miles on a full charge would mean less range anxiety and if batteries can get just three times better, you'd be able to get from London to Edinburgh and back if you were lucky.

Regards,

B.

PrincessB wrote:Also interesting was the way the range on pure electric vehicles is getting larger fast. I recall an earlier post describing life with a Nissan Leaf and the worrying small practical range. 300 miles on a full charge would mean less range anxiety and if batteries can get just three times better, you'd be able to get from London to Edinburgh and back if you were lucky.

I haven't watched the show, but the current Leaf's range only seems to be about half that. The thought that it could be six times more anytime soon seems a bit fanciful.

Scott.

Their last 2 episodes were on £30k cars from Hyundai and KIA that get 300 miles per charge.

PrincessB wrote:Also interesting was the way the range on pure electric vehicles is getting larger fast. I recall an earlier post describing life with a Nissan Leaf and the worrying small practical range. 300 miles on a full charge would mean less range anxiety and if batteries can get just three times better, you'd be able to get from London to Edinburgh and back if you were lucky.

I'd never be able to do London to Newcastle on my bladder

Usual stop is the OK Diner on the A1, just past Newark.

Slarti

The current speed of progress in development of electric vehicles is fast and accelerating. I'm left wondering why anyone wants to seriously spend £30K - 60K upwards ( or its corresponding monthly lease ) on any electric vehicle that is likely to be out of date within a few months of taking delivery.

richlist wrote:The current speed of progress in development of electric vehicles is fast and accelerating. I'm left wondering why anyone wants to seriously spend £30K - 60K upwards ( or its corresponding monthly lease ) on any electric vehicle that is likely to be out of date within a few months of taking delivery.

Because if you do the miles (25,000+) you'll cover £30K in a year!

If you can buy a car it's out of date.

For me, it'll be time to buy one when 2nd hand one's than I want are regularly available.

Slarti

Slarti wrote:

richlist wrote:The current speed of progress in development of electric vehicles is fast and accelerating. I'm left wondering why anyone wants to seriously spend £30K - 60K upwards ( or its corresponding monthly lease ) on any electric vehicle that is likely to be out of date within a few months of taking delivery.

Because if you do the miles (25,000+) you'll cover £30K in a year!

If you can buy a car it's out of date.

For me, it'll be time to buy one when 2nd hand one's than I want are regularly available.

Slarti

So we are not talking about people who do average annual milage or less ? It's only the higher mileage drivers who think it's cost effective to have a seriously out of date car in a very short space of time.

Before current electric technology most manufacturers of petrol or diesel vehicles usually replaced the model or face lifted it at 4/5 years. That doesn't seem to fit in with electric vehicle technology improvements/advancements which are being brought to the market in a much shorter time. That's really the point I'm making and it's what puts me off buying one for now. I guess it must also be a one of the contributory factors to the lower car sales volumes this year. Many potential buyers just don't know what to buy......so they end up not buying anything unless they have to.

richlist wrote:

Slarti wrote:

richlist wrote:The current speed of progress in development of electric vehicles is fast and accelerating. I'm left wondering why anyone wants to seriously spend £30K - 60K upwards ( or its corresponding monthly lease ) on any electric vehicle that is likely to be out of date within a few months of taking delivery.

Because if you do the miles (25,000+) you'll cover £30K in a year!

If you can buy a car it's out of date.

For me, it'll be time to buy one when 2nd hand one's than I want are regularly available.

Slarti

So we are not talking about people who do average annual milage or less ? It's only the higher mileage drivers who think it's cost effective to have a seriously out of date car in a very short space of time.

Before current electric technology most manufacturers of petrol or diesel vehicles usually replaced the model or face lifted it at 4/5 years. That doesn't seem to fit in with electric vehicle technology improvements/advancements which are being brought to the market in a much shorter time. That's really the point I'm making and it's what puts me off buying one for now. I guess it must also be a one of the contributory factors to the lower car sales volumes this year. Many potential buyers just don't know what to buy......so they end up not buying anything unless they have to.

To be clear, a good Tesla is already better than the corresponding dinosaur-fuelled car. So you'd rather not buy the better one because there will be even better one along soon.

Tell you what, I've an old chariot out back I can sell you. That's cheap to run, won't get any better, won't go obsolete, and won't depreciate. Should suit anybody thinking your way.

regards, dspp

A current Tesla may be better than a fossil fuelled model in some respects but it's not all positives with EV's and its gonna be out of date so very, very quickly. That leaves many unknowns, residual values, battery life/replacement cost, even the viability of the company itself etc.

So yes, I'd rather not buy any electric vehicle just yet.

I suspect some early adopters of EV's will loose a large sum on depreciation..... but, if they are happy to accept that in exchange for the latest wizz they are free to go ahead.....it's just not for me.

I am aware that there are manufacturers who offer battery leasing schemes but it's early days and looks more like work in progress than a finished article.

richlist wrote:

Slarti wrote:Because if you do the miles (25,000+) you'll cover £30K in a year!

If you can buy a car it's out of date.

For me, it'll be time to buy one when 2nd hand one's than I want are regularly available.

Slarti

So we are not talking about people who do average annual milage or less ? It's only the higher mileage drivers who think it's cost effective to have a seriously out of date car in a very short space of time.

Before current electric technology most manufacturers of petrol or diesel vehicles usually replaced the model or face lifted it at 4/5 years. That doesn't seem to fit in with electric vehicle technology improvements/advancements which are being brought to the market in a much shorter time. That's really the point I'm making and it's what puts me off buying one for now. I guess it must also be a one of the contributory factors to the lower car sales volumes this year. Many potential buyers just don't know what to buy......so they end up not buying anything unless they have to.

Not what I'm saying at all. If you do high mileage then you cover the cost of the car in fuel savings in a year. If you do 12,500 miles per year, 2 years. Only 8,500 3 years. Mind you, if most of your miles are short runs the savings will be even better as the electric car won't suffer the mpg hit that an ICE does with short runs.

As for the pace of development, to me that means if you are in the market for a new car, electric is the way to go, knowing that when you next change, things will be better still. Much the way things were with computers 20 or 30 years ago.

Slarti

As for the pace of development, to me that means if you are in the market for a new car, electric is the way to go, knowing that when you next change, things will be better still. Much the way things were with computers 20 or 30 years ago.

An important factor for me is the compatibility of the house with an electric vehicle.

For some people, having a charging point linked to the house electrics is relatively easy, for others (I include myself here) it would take a lot of money and effort to run power to the garage and carports as they live at the end of the garden.

I am likely to move house before I change car, but as you point out, electric vehicle technology is developing rapidly and it will be something I factor in when I start looking for my retirement cottage. The geek in me really wants a decent solar array linked to a powerwall and an electric car that will outperform many large engined petrol cars while often running on free energy.

Having typed this, I realise I've probably cast the spell of longevity on my five year old car and I'll probably still be driving it when it's 20.

Regards,

B.

PrincessB wrote:Having typed this, I realise I've probably cast the spell of longevity on my five year old car and I'll probably still be driving it when it's 20.

A thought crossed my mind the other day.
There are many who won't want electric cars when the sale of pure ICE is prohibited, so I wonder if that will increase the value of good condition 2nd hand ICE cars at that point in time?

Slarti

Electric vehicle developments are competing with self-driving cars. Once the latter prove to be much safer than human driven cars, I expect the latter to be regulated off the road, so there might be a complete turnover of the car stock, and I'm not sure petrolheads will want ICE self-driving cars.

It will be much harder to resist a safety lobby than a climate change one

JohnB wrote:Electric vehicle developments are competing with self-driving cars. Once the latter prove to be much safer than human driven cars, I expect the latter to be regulated off the road, so there might be a complete turnover of the car stock, and I'm not sure petrolheads will want ICE self-driving cars.

It will be much harder to resist a safety lobby than a climate change one

You may be right, but IMO we've got a decade or two before autonomous cars hit the roads properly, so probably the same again before they could become compulsory.

Similarly for electric cars. They're not even practical for the majority of us yet, so to think we could be forced to use them within 20 years, I don't think so.

Change will happen, and I'm not against it, but it won't be that quick.

Scott.

JohnB wrote:Electric vehicle developments are competing with self-driving cars. Once the latter prove to be much safer than human driven cars, I expect the latter to be regulated off the road, so there might be a complete turnover of the car stock, and I'm not sure petrolheads will want ICE self-driving cars.

It will be much harder to resist a safety lobby than a climate change one

Not competing at all.

IF self drive is achieved, no reason why it won't be electric self drive. In fact, in cities, electric makes much more sense.

Also, climate change isn't the biggest argument in favour of electric cars, running costs are.

Slarti

We don't ban something because individuals choose to use resources inefficiently, so we have Chelsea tractors. We do tend to ban things on safety grounds, especially at the point when one individual's actions directly affect another nearby, which fossil fuels generally don't (pace low emission zones)

So the ICE freedom of choice will last longer than the driving one unless the climate lobby becomes much stronger.

Self-driving cars biggest problem will be unpredictable and dangerous humans. Once they match good drivers, and inter-car comms allows negotiation over road space, there will be a strong pressure to squeeze out people, and it could happen fast, within 5 years if there was money for a scrappage scheme.

I think the biggest delay to electric cars will be charging infrastructure, all those houses without off-road parking, refitting car parks and filling stations. Today's £30k electric cars might be worth a £10k premium for the lower fuel costs and maintenance, and I'd be happy with the 300 mile range, but only if I could recharge roadside to get 100 miles more range in 10 minutes, or fully recharge during the weekly shop, so I'd not need to charge at home if it wasn't suitable.

I think external pressures will introduce change much faster than the spread of car comfort features like electric windows, ABS and aircon in the past decades, as society demands change of drivers.

JohnB wrote:We don't ban something because individuals choose to use resources inefficiently, so we have Chelsea tractors. We do tend to ban things on safety grounds, especially at the point when one individual's actions directly affect another nearby, which fossil fuels generally don't (pace low emission zones)

So the ICE freedom of choice will last longer than the driving one unless the climate lobby becomes much stronger.

Self-driving cars biggest problem will be unpredictable and dangerous humans. Once they match good drivers, and inter-car comms allows negotiation over road space, there will be a strong pressure to squeeze out people, and it could happen fast, within 5 years if there was money for a scrappage scheme.

I think the biggest delay to electric cars will be charging infrastructure, all those houses without off-road parking, refitting car parks and filling stations. Today's £30k electric cars might be worth a £10k premium for the lower fuel costs and maintenance, and I'd be happy with the 300 mile range, but only if I could recharge roadside to get 100 miles more range in 10 minutes, or fully recharge during the weekly shop, so I'd not need to charge at home if it wasn't suitable.

I think external pressures will introduce change much faster than the spread of car comfort features like electric windows, ABS and aircon in the past decades, as society demands change of drivers.

The government announced that they were going to ban the sale of ICE cars after 2040, last year, because of emission targets https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -from-2040 Not that they've actually done anything about it yet, having been a bit distracted.

Self-drive cars still seem to be a very long way off, in towns, to me. I suspect that we may well end up with a gradual introduction on sectins/lanes of motorways, where things are much simpler, though there have been incidents in the USA where Teslas have driven into the back of stationary vehicles. As for comms, they need to add some serious security to car internet before that would be safe, unlike the almost non existent security of today.

As for charging, lamp posts are the way forward for those with no off street parking https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-sty ... -1.3684434 And charging strips like the have in Formula E where the cars pick up charge without stopping.

Slarti

Charging points in lamp posts are not gonna cut the mustard.......is this some sort of poorly thought out solution by the same people trying to fix Brexit ?

A development near me of 96 flats ......and many residents have more than one car.....has considerably fewer lampposts than cars. There is probably a lamppost every 20 metres at best. Guess there are gonna be a lot of disappointed people who wont be able to drive to work in the morning !

This brave new world needs to provide a much better solution than plugging into lampposts.