Timing Belt

[OLTB]

Afternoon all.

My Qashqai needs its timing belt changed (done 165k miles - not on one belt, I have changed it a number of years ago) but I'm astonished at the cost. I will be wanting a full service performed as well and Halfords Autocentres wanted £559 for the timing belt alone, and F1 Autocentres were better at £336 which included VAT (service cost would be on top of this).

Am I out of touch with how much this costs or should I shop around for an alternative?

Cheers, OLTB.

[bungeejumper]

Seems on the high side - I've paid £350 on a mid-sized family car. And that was from an independent. £559 from a Halfords centre does sound a lot, unless this car is a known pig for doing this job.

Then again, it's important to check exactly what they're doing for the money. The Halfords place is probably going to do the whole belt kit, which will definitely include a new water pump, and probably a new aux belt, and new belt tensioners all round, and a pulley or two (they can crack), and all sorts of other bits and pieces that run off those belts. Any one of them coming off its pulley could trash your engine in a fiftieth of a second.

Depending on the model, they might decide to visually check peripherals like the aircon compressor and possibly the alternator. And they'll probably be fussier than the autocentre about making sure that everything's perfectly aligned. Would the F1 Autocentre do all of this?

Reason I ask is that I once had a belt break after less than 50,000 miles. It had delaminated and had been of poor quality to start with, but it was still technically beyond its replacement date. Cost me a complete top-end rebuild, about £1300. Ouch. No short cuts!

BJ

[scotia]

Cost me a complete top-end rebuild, about £1300. Ouch. No short cuts!
BJ

A broken belt in a Rover about 20 years ago cost me around £1100. It was slightly over the mileage at which it should have been changed.
Why do manufacturers use belts? What's wrong with a chain that never needs replacing (as in a Honda Jazz that I bought about 15 years ago).

[MonsterMork]

What's wrong with a chain that never needs replacing .

I think you have answered your own question there - it never needs changing (in theory at least, though not nesser celery in practice) so the manufactureres don't make any brass from them. Also they weigh a touch less than a chain, so the overall vehicle weight is kept lower, and the reciprocal losses mean a chain will suck about a quarter of a bhp from your engine, and a belt perhaps one tenth, so a belt might give you an extra mile per tankful of fuel.*

MM


* (pure guesswork these numbers, merely used as an illustrative guide)

[swill453]

Timing belts are also quieter, and less expensive and complex (no oil bath needed).

Scott.

[swill453]

I've had 2 timing belts fail in my time, both in Vauxhalls, and both were company cars serviced by the book.

Fortunately neither were interference engines so no damage occurred. New belt fitted and all was good.

Scott.

[bungeejumper]

Timing belts are also quieter, and less expensive and complex (no oil bath needed).

Indeed, it's primarily the quietness that makes them attractive. A worn chain can sound like a bag of bolts, which will have you wondering how much metal waste is getting into the oil system? Even if that's no more than a paranoid fantasy.

Certainly seem to have caused a few problems for Nissan in the US**, where the Juke has been one of the affected models. http://www.nissanproblems.com/timing-chain/ Hmmmmm.

BJ

**In the UK too, apparently....

[TheMotorcycleBoy]

Afternoon all.

My Qashqai needs its timing belt changed (done 165k miles - not on one belt, I have changed it a number of years ago) but I'm astonished at the cost. I will be wanting a full service performed as well and Halfords Autocentres wanted £559 for the timing belt alone, and F1 Autocentres were better at £336 which included VAT (service cost would be on top of this).

Am I out of touch with how much this costs or should I shop around for an alternative?

Cheers, OLTB.

On our Honda Civics I change them myself. For a qualified mechanic on my cars I guess they can strip down to the belt in 1.5-2.0hrs. I take longer since I have to remove the crank bolt using cunning (don't have an powerful air wrench), and I don't have a ramp platform, just axle stands and a trolley jack. Another 1.0-1.5hr to replace old and reassemble. Then 0.25 test drive?

That's 3.75 hours labour. The average labour cost apparently is £67.50 per hour

https://flexed.co.uk/much-pay-local-mec ... rs-labour/

Gates hydraulics belt kit, probably £40 - £100. Sundries £10.

So for my car I'd expect the very top whack to be (3.75 x 67.5) + 110 = £363 before VAT. (Which sounds like daylight robbery!)

However my guessimates for how quick a pro mechanic can do a belt even on my car might be a bit excessive. I have no experience of Qashqai. Sounds like the F1 auto price at £336 + VAT was reasonable. I'd go with them, can't think of any reason why Halfords would do the job any better to justify extra price.

Matt

[Sobraon]

Just been on the phone to a mechanic I trust in Lincoln about a between service oil change for my car. While on the phone I asked him about a belt change for a Qashqai. I have used this mechanic for decade, he has the lowest hourly rate locally and has grotty premises (think railway arches type) but excellent reviews. Assuming a diesel he told me "about £250 + vat". HTH

[OLTB]

Thanks everyone for your responses - really useful to know. I've contacted a local garage to ask if I supply the parts (thinking of ordering from Euro Car Parts) how much would they charge for labour. I have some very good info now and will know if they are in the correct ballpark.

Thanks again, cheers, OLTB.

[TheMotorcycleBoy]

Thanks everyone for your responses - really useful to know. I've contacted a local garage to ask if I supply the parts (thinking of ordering from Euro Car Parts) how much would they charge for labour. I have some very good info now and will know if they are in the correct ballpark.

Thanks again, cheers, OLTB.

Like I alluded I always use "Gates Hydraulics" as preferred AM timing belt supplier. Most back street garages also will. Top quality belts. Try to get one of them if you can, and if no one here knows of a better AM for a belt.

[OLTB]

Thanks everyone for your responses - really useful to know. I've contacted a local garage to ask if I supply the parts (thinking of ordering from Euro Car Parts) how much would they charge for labour. I have some very good info now and will know if they are in the correct ballpark.

Thanks again, cheers, OLTB.

Like I alluded I always use "Gates Hydraulics" as preferred AM timing belt supplier. Most back street garages also will. Top quality belts. Try to get one of them if you can, and if no one here knows of a better AM for a belt.

Thanks Matt - I missed that Gates Hydraulics bit so I'll get it from them.

Cheers, OLTB.

[TheMotorcycleBoy]

Thanks everyone for your responses - really useful to know. I've contacted a local garage to ask if I supply the parts (thinking of ordering from Euro Car Parts) how much would they charge for labour. I have some very good info now and will know if they are in the correct ballpark.

Thanks again, cheers, OLTB.

Like I alluded I always use "Gates Hydraulics" as preferred AM timing belt supplier. Most back street garages also will. Top quality belts. Try to get one of them if you can, and if no one here knows of a better AM for a belt.

Thanks Matt - I missed that Gates Hydraulics bit so I'll get it from them.

Cheers, OLTB.

And finally! You'll probably want to buy a "Timing Belt kit" (not just a "Timing Belt"). The difference is the "kit" will have the belt + a new tensioner/idler pulley, or whatever, depending on the model (for my civics it's a little roller thing that's on the belt's run and helps set the "initial tension" in the belt). It's often *not essential* but as it's a couple extra £ most folk just change this as well.

Also if your Water Pump is driven by the timing belt, and has never been changed before, you should *consider* changing this at this point. Ask the garage for advice re. your model. I change my W/Ps every other belt change, it's I dunno, £20-30 extra for a W/P (usually gates again), and for it's 4 extra little M10 bolts to undo, pull the thing off, clean up surfaces and then afix new one. The main additional relevant labour and sundry cost is the garage will probably want to drop a bit of your old coolant out, and on reinstall, they'll have to refill and prime up the cooling system. For my car I take my time (cos it needs a couple of warm/cool down cycles for new levels to settle). But your mileage may vary, if you pardon the pun. Really up to you, just bear in mind then when the W/P *does* eventually go, the garage will need to repeat very similar labour as to doing a T/belt.

HTH Matt

[OLTB]

Thanks Matt - yes, I have looked at the timing belt kit that comes with a water pump and it's a very reasonable £76.58 with the garage charging £165 + VAT to fit.

Cheers, OLTB.

[TheMotorcycleBoy]

Afternoon all.

My Qashqai needs its timing belt changed (done 165k miles - not on one belt, I have changed it a number of years ago) but I'm astonished at the cost. I will be wanting a full service performed as well and Halfords Autocentres wanted £559 for the timing belt alone, and F1 Autocentres were better at £336 which included VAT (service cost would be on top of this).

Am I out of touch with how much this costs or should I shop around for an alternative?

Cheers, OLTB.

Hi OLTB,

Sorry there's something I forgot to share in earlier chats about timing belts.

What I've noticed a lot of bodgers (i.e. crap garages, backstreet and dealerships a like I imagine) do bad when they get a TB change in, relates to the matter of re-securing the under tray.

Here's the back story. In the good old days a lot of 4 stroke cars engines would only have run one belt max, the fan/alternator belt. Valves would have been opened by either pushrods or camchain. So the engines of those days won't have had the need for much protection between the bottom of the engine and the road. However when timing belts came along, and especially when we got given p/assisted steering and a/c we now have a lot of extra belts which usually have one pulley at the bottom end (i.e. off the crank). There's a lot of scope now for a stone to whizz up from the road and get trapped between a belt and pulley. This is bad for any of those belts. I think you'd either get an instantaneous break or a large decrease in service life. So the manufacturers started fitted a large undertray (cover) which is molded piece of plastic about the width of the subframe which gets fitted at the front (just under the bottom of the bumper) and is clipped usually around various places in the front of the f/wheel arches. Often manufacturers skimp on the quality of fixings (on my civics the wheel arch fittings are very silly plastic inserts, brittle and bendy). Also the front edge securing bolts are notorious for seizing and snapping off on removal. On all our cars when I refit an undertray I always cable tie it back in one or two extra places.

So the problem is that as a car ages, "read has more TB changes" the undertray gets more sagging and loses more fixings. What I notice a hell of a lot is cars of, say 5 years or more older, being driven with the rear part of the undertray almost scraping the road. This is because when they last had a belt change the garage didn't/was unable/couldn't be bothered to resecure the tray adequately. Not only does it look very silly to observant folk like me, I imagine that sooner or later they get ripped off by road bumps, kerbs, debris, uneven driveways/entrances.

So do double check that yours was put back on right. You may need to stoop down to get a good view etc. or open bonnet and take a good look between the rear of the radiator and the front of the engine.

Matt

[jackdaww]

Afternoon all.

My Qashqai needs its timing belt changed (done 165k miles - not on one belt, I have changed it a number of years ago) but I'm astonished at the cost. I will be wanting a full service performed as well and Halfords Autocentres wanted £559 for the timing belt alone, and F1 Autocentres were better at £336 which included VAT (service cost would be on top of this).

Am I out of touch with how much this costs or should I shop around for an alternative?

Cheers, OLTB.

Hi OLTB,

Sorry there's something I forgot to share in earlier chats about timing belts.

What I've noticed a lot of bodgers (i.e. crap garages, backstreet and dealerships a like I imagine) do bad when they get a TB change in, relates to the matter of re-securing the under tray.

Here's the back story. In the good old days a lot of 4 stroke cars engines would only have run one belt max, the fan/alternator belt. Valves would have been opened by either pushrods or camchain. So the engines of those days won't have had the need for much protection between the bottom of the engine and the road. However when timing belts came along, and especially when we got given p/assisted steering and a/c we now have a lot of extra belts which usually have one pulley at the bottom end (i.e. off the crank). There's a lot of scope now for a stone to whizz up from the road and get trapped between a belt and pulley. This is bad for any of those belts. I think you'd either get an instantaneous break or a large decrease in service life. So the manufacturers started fitted a large undertray (cover) which is molded piece of plastic about the width of the subframe which gets fitted at the front (just under the bottom of the bumper) and is clipped usually around various places in the front of the f/wheel arches. Often manufacturers skimp on the quality of fixings (on my civics the wheel arch fittings are very silly plastic inserts, brittle and bendy). Also the front edge securing bolts are notorious for seizing and snapping off on removal. On all our cars when I refit an undertray I always cable tie it back in one or two extra places.

So the problem is that as a car ages, "read has more TB changes" the undertray gets more sagging and loses more fixings. What I notice a hell of a lot is cars of, say 5 years or more older, being driven with the rear part of the undertray almost scraping the road. This is because when they last had a belt change the garage didn't/was unable/couldn't be bothered to resecure the tray adequately. Not only does it look very silly to observant folk like me, I imagine that sooner or later they get ripped off by road bumps, kerbs, debris, uneven driveways/entrances.

So do double check that yours was put back on right. You may need to stoop down to get a good view etc. or open bonnet and take a good look between the rear of the radiator and the front of the engine.

Matt

================================

dead right .

the undertray cover on my 2016 qashqai came adrift after 2 years .

a very shoddy design job .

thanks for bringing this up , i must get mine done again .

[bungeejumper]

As Matt says, once the undertray starts to loosen, the wind can get under it so that it bellies about and scrapes the road. But you'll never see that yourself, because it only happens when you're driving at speed.

I drove my faithful old Citroen Xantia all the way back from the south of France, wondering where the faint scraping noise was coming from? (I assumed it was a creaky anti-roll-bar bush, which is not urgently serious.) But with the car stationary there was nothing at all to see. By the time I got home, I had only half an undertray left - the rest had been ground off by 700 miles of motorway. It must have looked pretty dramatic to the cars travelling along behind me.

It would have cost me £125 in 20-years-ago money to replace the wrecked tray, but fortunately my local Cit dealer had a spare one knocking about the place,and they took pity on me. Then again, it was their mechanics who had last fitted the undertray in question.......

One unfortunate downside of these undertrays is that MOT examiners are not required to remove them during the annual inspection. I'm told that all kinds of unpleasantnesses can lurk beneath them. Shudder.

BJ

[TheMotorcycleBoy]

To be honest all I do make sure mine are back on right after any belt work is get a few cable ties and find convenient holes in the tray. Don't worry for lots of vehicles you should be able to do this "from above" i.e. with the bonnet open and reaching in the space around the engine. Just ensure vehicle is cold, and watch you don't graze yourself on any exposed sharp edges. If you can't find in little holes in the tray, just make a few, either with a sharp knife or a drill. Once you've found/made a couple holes loop a cable ties through it, then find something innocent (on my cars there's a couple points on the back of the normal and the A/C radiator) to fix the other end of the tie to. And just connect the tie to hold the tray in place at the back. Yes you'll need to use your imagination, yes you might need long ties, or join ties together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2vY2FLrsxI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGrJL9Hv4Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_liqQ9tKXw

Anyway, do not pull the ties too tight, don't fix onto anything hot or too close to a fan etc. But it's not rocket science.

HTH

[jackdaww]

dropped my qashqai off at my local (helpful) ATS .

they had it up on the ramp for 20 mins and fixed the undercover using cable ties .

no charge !

[TheMotorcycleBoy]

they had it up on the ramp for 20 mins and fixed the undercover using cable ties .

Yup that's the way.

no charge !

cos it's a piece of piss! Surprised they took 20 mins