Dartford Crossing Charge

[XFool]

I've put this here for now though I think it is really an IT issue. In fact, to me it appears to be a particular case of a general problem we seem to be facing more and more in the UK (and elsewhere?) as more things are done electronically.

The issue (in my unprofessional opinion) is badly thought out, specified, designed and implemented IT software and systems in general.

I used the Dartford crossing the other day for the first time since the toll charge went electronic. I certainly do not use it regularly or need to make regular toll payments. I am well aware of the need to pay the toll and even checked up the details before the return crossing, opting to pay online the next day. What problem could there possibly be?

Well - the GOV.UK designed User Interface (UI)* and how it interacts with the backend payment system and Dartford Toll charging system, or so it seems to me.

I chose to make a one off payment, obviously. I hardly ever use the crossing and do not want or need an account (Minimum forward payment £10 - the toll charge is £2.50 per crossing)

I enter my vehicle registration details and email address - two crossings so I owe £5. It tells me I can get details of paid crossings "later"(?). I enter my card details etc. and pay. OK? Still no details of my crossings. But it does give me a 'helpful' message:

"You haven't made any crossings against this payment.

Crossings are valid for 1 year from the date they were paid for."

Uh? I'm not planning on making any further crossings, this was supposed to be for the crossings I made yesterday - though so far I have seen no sign of them via the UI - not future crossings. Have I paid for my crossing or not? Why didn't I stick to paying in a shop or by phone as I originally planned? Will I be fined in future for NOT paying for crossings I know I have already made?

In the end I had to phone up Dart Charge and the operator checked against my vehicle registration and last four digits of payment card. Times were checked and I was told "payment has just gone through" on that number.

Checking online against my vehicle registration still returns:

"You haven't made any crossings against this payment.

Crossings are valid for 1 year from the date they were paid for."

I've received a simple payment receipt for the money via email which I'm keeping! I (too briefly) pointed out the problem in my feedback response*. Is it a particularly British thing that we seem to be making a dogs dinner of all these new systems? (e.g. See the recent LF discussion on 'Security of online transactions' viewtopic.php?f=29&t=20091)

When it comes to the design of such systems I always come to a very, very simple, absolute and unqualified conclusion: I could do a better job than this.

What exactly IS the problem here?

1. I make a crossing
2. I go online with my vehicle registration number
3. It says "You made crossing(s) at <time&date> you need to pay <charge> by <time&date>"
4. It offers payment options
5. I pay
6. It issues receipt for "<payment> for crossing(s) made at <time(s)&date(s)>"
7. Finis

It's hardly rocket science. What has been other peoples experience of this?


* "ALPHA This is a new service - your feedback <link> will help us to improve it"

[JohnB]

their software was rubbish at the start and has not improved. it sends out content free emails, and if you choose to have an account, nags if you don't have £10 credit and will only allow £10 topups. So a casual user could have £18 tied up for years

it still says "ALPHA this is a new service" 5 years on, so don't bother complaining

[XFool]

Having previously had no contact with this I looked online and found the system is hated and derided far and wide, including write ups in national newspapers.

A couple of points. The guy I spoke to on the phone said I had "Done the right thing", whatever that meant. Also, many of the online comments from members of the public reported a PCN having been waived "as it was the first time".

A thought now occurs. All the publicity about it says you need to pay "Before midnight of the day following the crossing", including huge illuminated signs on the roadway itself. BUT the online system for a one-off, non account (minimum payment £10!*) charge within that time frame looks like it assumes this is an ADVANCE payment for a future crossing, that may never even be made. Possibly risking a retrospective PCN for a crossing 'not' paid for? Which, along with the "Done the right thing" remark, may possibly 'explain' the "first time" BS.

I'm keeping my printed receipt and message page! (Perhaps I should print out this thread?)

Moral: Don't use the online system for a one off payment following a crossing?


* As somebody online commented: "Say 10 million users, £10 balance each. Nice little earner!"

[PinkDalek]

1. I make a crossing
2. I go online with my vehicle registration number
3. It says "You made crossing(s) at <time&date> you need to pay <charge> by <time&date>"
...

That would provide such information to every Tom, Dick and Harriet that wants to check up on you (or anyone else that uses the crossing, for that matter)!

[XFool]

1. I make a crossing
2. I go online with my vehicle registration number
3. It says "You made crossing(s) at <time&date> you need to pay <charge> by <time&date>"
...

That would provide such information to every Tom, Dick and Harriet that wants to check up on you (or anyone else that uses the crossing, for that matter)!

They don't know already? Who cares if I use the Dartford crossing? Why should I care if they know? You can already see if my car is MOT'd etc.

This takes us to 2FA/3FA. But, from the above, an account is a no-no for an irregular user (and why should it be popular for a regular user, it doesn't seem it is). However popular it would be (and is) - see above - for the company involved.

[JohnB]

£2.50 without account, £2 with

[tjh290633]

There appears to be a built-in time lag, between a crossing and the appearance of the charge on your account. My credit card had changed, so I got a message very quickly telling me that my automatic top-up had failed. Went in, changed the card, made the top-up, only to find that the crossing had not been placed on the web site. Could be that they upload them all in one operation after midnight.

TJH

[XFool]

There appears to be a built-in time lag, between a crossing and the appearance of the charge on your account.

That is, of course, another possibility. Though I don't have an account.

Could be that they upload them all in one operation after midnight.

Of the same day as the crossing? You are allowed up to midnight on the day after the crossing to pay. I paid during the day after the crossing, so well within time, but there was no indication on the website - via a one off payment option - of any crossing having been made. Only my knowledge of this. The receipt is simply for a payment, it references no crossings. It was only on my follow-up phone call that my previous day's crossings, which I was paying for, were manually identified.

There are supposed to be many PCNs issued wrt this crossing since it went electronic - main reason it is so unpopular. Obviously there are many reasons for this but could one extra one be people like me who make a one off crossing, go to pay afterwords on the website, find no reference to any crossing and wrongly conclude: "They must have missed me, I got away with it." don't pay and subsequently get a PCN charge? (and are then let off the PCN "As it was the first time"?)

Jesus! How to make the very simple very complicated.

What with the minimum £10 on account payment charge (for a £2.50/£2 toll!) it all seems set up primarily for the benefit and convenience of the private contractor, certainly not the motorist.

[swill453]

What with the minimum £10 on account payment charge (for a £2.50/£2 toll!) it all seems set up primarily for the benefit and convenience of the private contractor, certainly not the motorist.

So have you worked out whether (and how) a one-off user can make a crossing and pay £2.50 for it after the event (by following the advertised instruction), and have the crossing and payment reconcile with each other?

Scott.

[XFool]

What with the minimum £10 on account payment charge (for a £2.50/£2 toll!) it all seems set up primarily for the benefit and convenience of the private contractor, certainly not the motorist.

So have you worked out whether (and how) a one-off user can make a crossing and pay £2.50 for it after the event (by following the advertised instruction), and have the crossing and payment reconcile with each other?

It's a good question, but I am groping about in the dark here; as a first time user with no insight into how the system actually works behind the scenes. For all I know the system might eventually reconcile automatically by itself! But that is definitely not the impression given to this user by the messages given via the UI.

With my experience above I would conclude, whether correctly or not:

1. For one off crossings pay in advance if using the website.

2. If paying retrospectively for one off crossings, use the phone. But again, this would I assume usually be an automated system, which I haven't experienced, as in my case I needed to speak to somebody following my online payment.

3. There is the in shop PayPoint system. Again, I've never used this so can't comment.

Obviously, as you are advised to "Pay the charge before midnight of the following day" it ought to simply work, but the online UI messages appear to contradict this.

[Gaggsy]

I crossed in July, missed the payment window. Have heard nothing since.
We discussed this in the Mersey Gateway thread - viewtopic.php?p=246303#p246303

Regarding the Dartford Crossing I think it was possible to register a debit or credit card so that future crossings could be charged to it on an as-used basis. The advance payment of £10 gained you a discount but this was a different option.

[XFool]

I crossed in July, missed the payment window. Have heard nothing since.

Hah! How long is "since"?

Online commentary suggests, from the company themselves, the delay on issuing PCNs is or was, 56 days. Stay lucky!

[XFool]

Pay the Dartford Crossing charge (Dart Charge)

https://www.gov.uk/pay-dartford-crossing-charge

"check which crossings you've paid for"

AHA! Only now, on checking - on the third day (the day AFTER the midnight payment deadline of the day following a crossing) does the website actually show my crossings and the payment.

Now if only somebody had thought of bringing this delay to the attention of users via the online UI, rather than a message saying you haven't yet made a crossing against your payment and you have 12 months left to use it.

[Gaggsy]

Gaggsy wrote:I crossed in July, missed the payment window. Have heard nothing since.Hah! How long is "since"?

14/7/2019 to 31/10/2019 is 109 days.

Online commentary suggests, from the company themselves, the delay on issuing PCNs is or was, 56 days. Stay lucky!

So you think I'm not out of the woods yet?

[JohnB]

Clearly what users want is to register a card, so that each time you cross £2 is deducted. This is not what the system provides. You have an auto-topup system which only top-ups in £10 increments, and requires a £10 minimum balance, so you'd have in your account 14,12,10,18,16 etc

This is why the developers should not walk down dark alleyways

[XFool]

Clearly what users want is to register a card, so that each time you cross £2 is deducted. This is not what the system provides. You have an auto-topup system which only top-ups in £10 increments, and requires a £10 minimum balance, so you'd have in your account 14,12,10,18,16 etc

This is why the developers should not walk down dark alleyways

I assume it's the 'business model'. Which company wouldn't want a non-repayable, interest free, permanent ~100 million pound loan on their balance sheet? A bit like an insurance company's float, but with less volatile outgoings.

[Gaggsy]

This is not what the system provides.

But it does. You have the option to have a PAYG account when you set it up. This is what I have. I just logged in and it tells me:

Account type
Auto pay as you go

Albeit, they are yet to take any payments as I haven't crossed since I set it up. So I'm yet to find out if the charge is £2 or £2.50

[XFool]

This is not what the system provides.

But it does. You have the option to have a PAYG account when you set it up. This is what I have. I just logged in and it tells me:

Account type
Auto pay as you go

Albeit, they are yet to take any payments as I haven't crossed since I set it up. So I'm yet to find out if the charge is £2 or £2.50

He's right:

https://www.dartford-crossing-charge.service.gov.uk/Home/SetupType

What kind of account do you want?

Pre pay
Pre-pay and save on every crossing. A minimum initial payment of £10 is required.

Pay as you go
Pay automatically. No initial payment. No discount.

So no discount I'm afraid.

As I didn't need or want an account, I never saw any of this.

[stockton]

It would quite obviously be more sensible if one were given a week, or more, to pay. Allowing only 24 hours smacks of a scam rather than a charging system.

[AsleepInYorkshire]

Either we make the product (software) up to standard or failing which it will be made down to the budget.

Make a silly budget and get a silly product.

Design a product from the outset and get the product needed and then adjust the budget to suit the design criterion.

AiY (Now BiY ... Budgets in Yorkshire)