Octavia Estate hybrid: the reality?

[Mike4]

Pass. At the moment probably relying on enforcement staff hearing/seeing the engine running, but it isn't much of a leap for the car to be required to self-report that it is in a compliant mode given that all new cars for the last few years have had to be connected to mobile networks to report if they have been in an accident, or even the car to be forced into a compliant mode when it enters the area.

Really? You're kidding surely.....

One more reason never to buy a new car!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall

--kiloran

"The aim is for all new cars to incorporate a system that automatically contacts the emergency services in the event of a serious accident, sending location and sensor information. eCall was made mandatory in all new cars sold within the EU from April 2018."

Amazing, and not a peep in the media about this gross invasion of personal privacy! I cannot imagine that the location of the car is not tracked all the time and stored secretly by our nosey guvverment.

How does it work then? Does one have to buy and maintain a sim contract to make the car start?

No doubt this system is still mandatory despite us leaving the EU...

[swill453]

Pass. At the moment probably relying on enforcement staff hearing/seeing the engine running, but it isn't much of a leap for the car to be required to self-report that it is in a compliant mode given that all new cars for the last few years have had to be connected to mobile networks to report if they have been in an accident, or even the car to be forced into a compliant mode when it enters the area.

Really? You're kidding surely.....

One more reason never to buy a new car!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall

So it's only mandatory on new car types going through type-approval. Most new cars being sold now won't have it fitted.

Scott.

[Dod101]

I run a petrol driven Q5 and find it totally satisfactory for my needs. I am thinking of changing it and so have assiduously read this entire thread. I am none the wiser than before I read any of it about electric, hybrid or any variation, cars than I was before I started. Probably because I do not understand the various acronyms, PHEV, ZEZ or its cousin ULEZ, and frankly conflicting comments from various contributors.

I am likely to buy another petrol vehicle as I like the range, reliability and reponse that I get from it.

Incidentally I think if anyone is concerned about the tracking via mobile networks, to allow one push of a button t alert the emergency services, had better get rid of their mobile phone as well as probably Satnav.

Dod

[AF62]

Really? You're kidding surely.....

One more reason never to buy a new car!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall

--kiloran

"The aim is for all new cars to incorporate a system that automatically contacts the emergency services in the event of a serious accident, sending location and sensor information. eCall was made mandatory in all new cars sold within the EU from April 2018."

Amazing, and not a peep in the media about this gross invasion of personal privacy! I cannot imagine that the location of the car is not tracked all the time and stored secretly by our nosey guvverment.

How does it work then? Does one have to buy and maintain a sim contract to make the car start?

No doubt this system is still mandatory despite us leaving the EU...

Actually it was in the media, and I believe some aspects were scaled back with the final implementation, such as not alerting the authorities to how serious the crash was which would have required data from before the impact, and thus a constant recording of data, just that an impact has occurred (i.e. airbags deployed) and location.

https://www.bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/wp-c ... ll-PDF.pdf

[kiloran]

Really? You're kidding surely.....

One more reason never to buy a new car!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall

So it's only mandatory on new car types going through type-approval. Most new cars being sold now won't have it fitted.

Scott.

I imagine most/all new cars have it. I bought my current car in 2015 and it has it, even though it was not mandatory at the time.

eCall would have helped this couple after their car crashed off the M9 https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scot ... ly-6230328

--kiloran

[redsturgeon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall

So it's only mandatory on new car types going through type-approval. Most new cars being sold now won't have it fitted.

Scott.

I imagine most/all new cars have it. I bought my current car in 2015 and it has it, even though it was not mandatory at the time.

eCall would have helped this couple after their car crashed off the M9 https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scot ... ly-6230328

--kiloran

My BMW registered in 2016 has it. Mrs RS is grateful for it, she had a puncture late at night, a few weeks ago and her mobile had run out of battery. She pressed the button above the mirror and was immediately connected to BMW emergency helpline who had someone out to her to get her on her way within the hour.

John

[AF62]

I run a petrol driven Q5 and find it totally satisfactory for my needs. I am thinking of changing it and so have assiduously read this entire thread. I am none the wiser than before I read any of it about electric, hybrid or any variation, cars than I was before I started. Probably because I do not understand the various acronyms, PHEV, ZEZ or its cousin ULEZ, and frankly conflicting comments from various contributors.

PHEV - Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle - a petrol/diesel car with a (small) battery pack and electric motor. General aim is to provide increased efficiency and less pollution by using the electric motor when desirable. Can be plugged in, but also gets electricity to charge the battery from regenerative braking (so the motor operates in reverse to charge) or with some cars from the electric motor.

PHEVs are similar to Hybrid Electric Vehicles, but Hybrids don’t plug in so all the electrical power comes from regenerative braking or the engine. Some are ‘full’ hybrids with the motor able to power the car and some are ‘mild’ hybrids with the electric motor only capable of providing some assistance to the engine.

BEV - Battery Electric Vehicles have only an electric motor and battery and must be plugged in to be charged.

People (rightly) have different views on what is good or bad, and what is suitable. However, as well as the pure environmental reasons for non-petrol / diesel Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) cars lot of take up of hybrids, PHEVs, and BEVs has been driven by tax and regulation.

Such legislation includes ULEZ - Ultra Low Emissions Zones and ZEZ - Zero Emissions Zones where drivers of ICE cars can be financially penalised or their cars prohibited to encourage low or no emission vehicles. London is a good example of ULEZs with financial penalties on ICE use in the centre, Bristol with their threat of banning diesel cars, and Oxford is due to introduce the first ZEZ in the UK for their city centre in the near future.

I am likely to buy another petrol vehicle as I like the range, reliability and reponse that I get from it.

Of course you will buy want you are happy with, but just to comment on petrol cars vs alternatives -

Range - I can understand as although BEVs are starting to get there at 250 to 350 mile ranges becoming more common, that doesn’t work for everyone. However a PHEV doesn’t have that limitation as it is a ‘normal’ car if you want to use it that way.

Reliability - The initial anxiety about battery packs wearing out seems to be easing as older BEVs are still operating fine, and frankly the complexities of modern petrol or diesel cars can make them just as expensive to fix if they go wrong. However there is an issue that not all dealers and mechanics are able to work on BEVs or the electrical parts of PHEVs.

Response - The shocked look of the person in the sporty hatchback next to me at the lights as they see my tail lights of my BEV disappearing when the lights go green would tell you that most BEVs are more responsive than petrol cars. Don’t be fooled by those not driving them briskly; it isn’t that they cannot but simply they will be trying to drive economically. However as a full comparison most are designed in the tall SUV style with battery pack under the floor so handling isn’t going to be as good as a low slung sports car, but then the tall SUV style is popular so people must be happy with that type of handling.

And lastly one point you haven’t mentioned in favour of petrol is price. BEVs are damned expensive (and PHEVs to a lesser extent) and the only way they make sense is from the reduced tax payable from owning or operating one, which for some then tips the balance in their favour.

[Dod101]

AF62

Many thanks for promptly responding to my cri de coeur. That is all very helpful and I will read it a couple more times (at least) so that I have some idea of what I am attempting to talk about!

Dod

[DrFfybes]

"The aim is for all new cars to incorporate a system that automatically contacts the emergency services in the event of a serious accident, sending location and sensor information. eCall was made mandatory in all new cars sold within the EU from April 2018."

Amazing, and not a peep in the media about this gross invasion of personal privacy! I cannot imagine that the location of the car is not tracked all the time and stored secretly by our nosey guvverment.

Not likely - look at the success they've had with "track and trace", and that's with half the population having been microchipped

[staffordian]

And lastly one point you haven’t mentioned in favour of petrol is price. BEVs are damned expensive (and PHEVs to a lesser extent) and the only way they make sense is from the reduced tax payable from owning or operating one, which for some then tips the balance in their favour.

This is the key point IMHO.

I'd love to own a BEV with a range in the 200+ mile region but given the purchase price and the cost of a suitable home charger, the economics simply don't stack up for me yet.

I tend to cover only about 5k miles per year, much of which is local, but includes 100+ trips from time to time. Therefore the potential fuel savings for me, even compared to my gas guzzling Hyundai Tucson 1.6 petrol, which only averages 36mpg are negligible.

I tend to buy ex demo type cars, rather than take the depreciation of a new buy, but so far, even ex demo BEVs are extortionate compared to their petrol equivalents.

[Urbandreamer]

I'd love to own a BEV with a range in the 200+ mile region but given the purchase price and the cost of a suitable home charger, the economics simply don't stack up for me yet.

I tend to cover only about 5k miles per year, much of which is local, but includes 100+ trips from time to time. Therefore the potential fuel savings for me, even compared to my gas guzzling Hyundai Tucson 1.6 petrol, which only averages 36mpg are negligible.

I tend to buy ex demo type cars, rather than take the depreciation of a new buy, but so far, even ex demo BEVs are extortionate compared to their petrol equivalents.

I have similar issues, and another more. However I have thought of the ones that you mention. The first idea is to lease rather than buy. It's surprisingly cheap+.

For example Drive-electric will do a MG6 EV estate for about £240pcm. They estimate it has a real world range of about 180miles (quoted 214 miles).

If you are only doing 5K miles a year then you can probably get away without a special charger. An overnight charge using a 3 pin plug is 3kW * 8hr or 24kwh. As it happens that's more than the size of the battery fitted to the £190pcm smart EV (55 range) they also do. Giving a real world range of 70 miles every day*. Charge for more than one day or drive less miles on average and you should be good. You only really need a proper charger if you do more than that regularly. Fast charging on the motorway (expensive) will restore the battery to 80% within 45 minutes.

Or of course you could hire a car for long distance travel (or use train or plane).

The MG6 would be ideal for me if it were not for the additional issue.

My son needs to learn how to drive. I believe that ALL standard BEV (battery cars) are effectively automatic as are PHEV's. Hence licence restrictions if he learns on a automatic.

+Cheap in relative terms. My current car cost £4400 five years ago and while 12 years old shows no sign of giving up the ghost any time soon. Have you calculated what you pay at the moment in Petrol? I have done just over 8k in the last 12 months and it cost me about £1.3k for the fuel. Clearly I do things cheaper than a BEV at the moment. But like you I WANT ONE!

*It's bad for this type of battery to top it up regularly rather than run it down and fully charge it, but I'm talking a lease car here.

[staffordian]

I'd love to own a BEV with a range in the 200+ mile region but given the purchase price and the cost of a suitable home charger, the economics simply don't stack up for me yet.

I tend to cover only about 5k miles per year, much of which is local, but includes 100+ trips from time to time. Therefore the potential fuel savings for me, even compared to my gas guzzling Hyundai Tucson 1.6 petrol, which only averages 36mpg are negligible.

I tend to buy ex demo type cars, rather than take the depreciation of a new buy, but so far, even ex demo BEVs are extortionate compared to their petrol equivalents.

I have similar issues, and another more. However I have thought of the ones that you mention. The first idea is to lease rather than buy. It's surprisingly cheap+.

For example Drive-electric will do a MG6 EV estate for about £240pcm. They estimate it has a real world range of about 180miles (quoted 214 miles).

If you are only doing 5K miles a year then you can probably get away without a special charger. An overnight charge using a 3 pin plug is 3kW * 8hr or 24kwh. As it happens that's more than the size of the battery fitted to the £190pcm smart EV (55 range) they also do. Giving a real world range of 70 miles every day*. Charge for more than one day or drive less miles on average and you should be good. You only really need a proper charger if you do more than that regularly. Fast charging on the motorway (expensive) will restore the battery to 80% within 45 minutes.

Or of course you could hire a car for long distance travel (or use train or plane).

The MG6 would be ideal for me if it were not for the additional issue.

My son needs to learn how to drive. I believe that ALL standard BEV (battery cars) are effectively automatic as are PHEV's. Hence licence restrictions if he learns on a automatic.

+Cheap in relative terms. My current car cost £4400 five years ago and while 12 years old shows no sign of giving up the ghost any time soon. Have you calculated what you pay at the moment in Petrol? I have done just over 8k in the last 12 months and it cost me about £1.3k for the fuel. Clearly I do things cheaper than a BEV at the moment. But like you I WANT ONE!

*It's bad for this type of battery to top it up regularly rather than run it down and fully charge it, but I'm talking a lease car here.

Good shout regarding leasing. It's something I'm prejudiced against, possibly because I generally intend to keep my cars four or five years (doesn't always happen though ) but that probably blinds me to what could be a good deal.

Time for some number crunching, I think.

[AF62]

I'd love to own a BEV with a range in the 200+ mile region but given the purchase price and the cost of a suitable home charger, the economics simply don't stack up for me yet.

I tend to cover only about 5k miles per year, much of which is local, but includes 100+ trips from time to time. Therefore the potential fuel savings for me, even compared to my gas guzzling Hyundai Tucson 1.6 petrol, which only averages 36mpg are negligible.

I tend to buy ex demo type cars, rather than take the depreciation of a new buy, but so far, even ex demo BEVs are extortionate compared to their petrol equivalents.

I have similar issues, and another more. However I have thought of the ones that you mention. The first idea is to lease rather than buy. It's surprisingly cheap+.

For example Drive-electric will do a MG6 EV estate for about £240pcm. They estimate it has a real world range of about 180miles (quoted 214 miles).

If you are only doing 5K miles a year then you can probably get away without a special charger. An overnight charge using a 3 pin plug is 3kW * 8hr or 24kwh. As it happens that's more than the size of the battery fitted to the £190pcm smart EV (55 range) they also do. Giving a real world range of 70 miles every day*. Charge for more than one day or drive less miles on average and you should be good. You only really need a proper charger if you do more than that regularly. Fast charging on the motorway (expensive) will restore the battery to 80% within 45 minutes.

Or of course you could hire a car for long distance travel (or use train or plane).

The MG6 would be ideal for me if it were not for the additional issue.

My son needs to learn how to drive. I believe that ALL standard BEV (battery cars) are effectively automatic as are PHEV's. Hence licence restrictions if he learns on a automatic.

+Cheap in relative terms. My current car cost £4400 five years ago and while 12 years old shows no sign of giving up the ghost any time soon. Have you calculated what you pay at the moment in Petrol? I have done just over 8k in the last 12 months and it cost me about £1.3k for the fuel. Clearly I do things cheaper than a BEV at the moment. But like you I WANT ONE!

*It's bad for this type of battery to top it up regularly rather than run it down and fully charge it, but I'm talking a lease car here.

Good shout regarding leasing. It's something I'm prejudiced against, possibly because I generally intend to keep my cars four or five years (doesn't always happen though ) but that probably blinds me to what could be a good deal.

Time for some number crunching, I think.

You are absolutely correct, whether the maths works is key, especially with leasing.

I decided to lease a sensible Renault Zoe earlier this year (GT Line R135 50 kW) which has a range of around 180/220 miles (winter/summer) to compliment my less sensible petrol Fiat 124 Spider.

I am sure we could own something cheaper than the Zoe to do the 8,000ish miles we will do in it, but so far the first 1,000 miles has cost £7.57 in electricity (the smart charger gives exact figures) vs £160ish in petrol (lots of 2 to 3 mile journeys from cold).

So over the course of the year I expect it to cost £60ish in electricity vs £1,250ish in petrol plus saving £150ish in road tax (the Zoe is zero), and breakdown cover is included. I did get a charger installed which cost £500, but that will hopefully be used over a number of years, but if I was prepared for some hassle could have probably got away without one as there are numerous chargers with free electricity in my area (around 1/3 mileage has been covered by free electricity).

The lease cost of the Zoe is £2,800 for a year plus £100 maintenance, so taking the fuel and tax savings into account, I would have to own something that depreciated less than £1,500 a year, and if it wasn’t new enough to be within warranty then would have to price in the risk of something going wrong.

Absolutely I could find something that was cheaper than the Zoe, but my wife is happy driving around in her brand new car, and that is worth the extra.

[brightncheerful]

Something not mentioned is that the speed at which the car is driven when in battery mode will make a difference to how long the each full charge will last.

I am told that if I drive at 56mph (Eddie Stobart initiated) then that is apparently the most economical. If so then at 20-30mph around town (20 is plenty in this part of the world, so the signs proclaim) I would be using more power than economical?

[swill453]

I am told that if I drive at 56mph (Eddie Stobart initiated)

Well that was always wrong*, and for an electric car it's probably even more wrong.

* - though some cars' electronics were programmed to perform best when driving in official fuel consumption tests.

Scott.

[staffordian]

Something not mentioned is that the speed at which the car is driven when in battery mode will make a difference to how long the each full charge will last.

I am told that if I drive at 56mph (Eddie Stobart initiated) then that is apparently the most economical. If so then at 20-30mph around town (20 is plenty in this part of the world, so the signs proclaim) I would be using more power than economical?

Slower is more economical, as wind resistance increases with the square of the speed.

With an internal combustion engine, this is complicated by the fact that top gear is most fuel efficient, and an engine is most efficient at a certain rpm, so maximum efficiency is a balance of these factors. So it's perhaps possible that a specific model of car with a specific engine might be most efficient at 56mph, I'd expect most cars to be more efficient at a lower speed than this.

And I suspect BEVs and hybrids when running purely on batteries would get less efficient as speed rises. Lets face it, at 0mph, your range will never decrease, and will last for ever

[servodude]

.
I suspect BEVs and hybrids when running purely on batteries would get less efficient as speed rises. Lets face it, at 0mph, your range will never decrease, and will last for ever

Motor curve is a motor curve
- the only thing that can change is where it intersects the axes
The most amazing thing is how they sold me more than one text book on it!
-sd

[Mike4]

Slower is more economical, as wind resistance increases with the square of the speed.

Quite so. And this is why going only a little bit faster has a bigger impact on range than simple logic might suggest. Hence the reason one sees so many Tesla Model S drivers doing 62mph in middle lane of the motorway. They'd love to be in the fast lane doing 80mph with all the company reps and plumbers, but it roughly halves their available range!

[9873210]

I think my comment was misunderstood. It's not necessary per se to charge the battery from time to time. But if we want to use the electric power to drive the car then the battery would need charging.

Is it this model https://www.driving.co.uk/car-reviews/extended-tests/2020-skoda-octavia-iv-estate-plug-in-hybrid-review/

by unticking the ‘Auto’ box in the Drive Mode menu on the touchscreen, you can set a desired battery level. If you have more battery than required, the car will keep running in electric until it reaches that level, then switch to hybrid and hold that amount of charge in the battery. If there’s not enough charge in the battery, the petrol engine will work as a generator and top it up to the specified amount.

- as that sounds like it's more than just regenerative braking that charges the big battery

- sd

As an optional function you need to specifically select rather than letting the car use the default. Such as when someone needs to ensure they have a minimum level of battery to use, for example in an electric only ULEZ.

If such a mode was more efficient then undoubtedly it would be the default, and it would seem that burning expensive and polluting petrol just to create electricity to store isn’t, but is the ‘least bad’ thing to do if you need to use battery only but can’t charge.

There are two different things here:
1) What the car does when there is no useable charge in the battery.
2) When the car decides there is no useable charge in the battery,

This option affects the second, but there is no reason it should affect the first. From the cars point of view

• There is no useable charge because it's near the end of a long trip.
• There is no useable charge because it was not plugged in.
• There is no useable charge because the driver is reserving charge for later use.

Should all result in using the same mode, which should include a normal HEV mode where the engine runs periodically at peak efficiency to move the car while charging the battery.

[AF62]

And I suspect BEVs and hybrids when running purely on batteries would get less efficient as speed rises. Lets face it, at 0mph, your range will never decrease, and will last for ever

Actually range does decrease at 0mph as you can set a timer (or activate from your phone) the heaters and air-conditioning for the empty parked car to get itself to a nice comfy temperature whilst you are still in bed or at work! And that is powered by the traction battery so decreases the range slightly - if the car is plugged in and charging as it might be in the morning, it takes the power from there rather than the battery.

The Renault Zoe I have has a constant display of the energy being consumed at that moment in time; a sweeping dial rather like a rev counter which changes colour the further you push the accelerator into the floor, a digital readout of the current kW being consumed (which goes negative when regenerative braking), and a picture of a leaf - the leaf gets bigger if you drive economically - you can turn it off!

To be honest, I find the average consumption it displays is more helpful than the momentary energy consumption. The average is an average over all journeys unless you reset it.

Rather like a car will display average MPG or l/100KM, it displays average 'miles per kW'. At the moment with the slightly warmer weather it is showing 4.1 miles per kW, which will equate to around 205 miles if the 50kW battery is fully charged, earlier in the year with cooler weather and slightly harder driving it was around 3.7 miles per kW.

There is no set 'most economical' speed as there are no gears, so it is just 'go faster = use more energy', but I suspect the reason many are driven at 55ish is people are concerned about range (needlessly probably) and 55ish is fast enough to keep ahead of the trucks. Also at the moment the type of person who buys a BEV that isn't a Tesla is probably not a fan of Top Gear and looking to see how fast they can drive.