Octavia Estate hybrid: the reality?

[brightncheerful]

.....and with a relatively small engine carrying the extra weight of the redundant electric motor & battery the fuel consumption is likely to be pretty poor.

extra weight of the redundant electric motor & battery plus the weight of puppy. her crate and ramp…

[9873210]

Non-plugin hybrids, such a 2014 Prius, deliver good fuel economy, both on tests and in the real world, although not in some peoples imaginations.

There is no reason that a PHEV that is never plugged in should not do the same, unless the engineers were complete numpties.

The extra mass of the PHEV battery over a HEV battery will make some difference, but this is likely to be small. The difference in mass between a PHEV Prius (with an electric range of 11 miles) and a HEV Prius is 50kg which will reduce fuel economy by perhaps 2% (1mpg).

[Mike4]

I think my comment was misunderstood. It's not necessary per se to charge the battery from time to time. But if we want to use the electric power to drive the car then the battery would need charging.

Thank you, but still no-one has addressed my underlying question.

Does the engine in a hybrid ever charge the battery, or not?

I always imagined when the battery gets low, the engine starts and runs at a fixed speed (for peak fuel efficiency) charging the battery, and the battery runs the electric motor which pushes the car along. Is this wrong?

[swill453]

Does the engine in a hybrid ever charge the battery, or not?

I think from reading this and previous threads, the answer is that some do and some don't...

Scott.

[AF62]

With most new BEVs with larger batteries and fast charging one can add 100 miles range in well under half an hour - but it will cost more than charging at home!

Not always. Just been to the cinema this afternoon and the retail park has about 16 chargers (a mix of 7kW and 22kW) that are free to use. So I dropped in about 45kW (about 185 miles) whilst watching the film for nothing and saving £2.25.

I always imagined when the battery gets low, the engine starts and runs at a fixed speed (for peak fuel efficiency) charging the battery, and the battery runs the electric motor which pushes the car along. Is this wrong?

That used to be the case with some 'range extender' type electric/petrol cars, the BMW i3 Range Extender was an example, but generally isn't the case now.

These days the battery is used for short/low speed/stop go, type journeys if it has charge from being plugged in or from regenerative charging, as it is ideal for those uses - fuel efficiency, environmental, etc. Then the petrol engine is generally used as a normal petrol engine in a car would be apart from that, although with the battery and motor providing a boost to performance when you 'floor it'. That isn't to say that with some cars you cannot change to a setting which will charge the battery from the engine, but that is really only useful if you don't have somewhere to plug it in and you need to use it regularly in a ULEZ zone where you have to use battery only as ICE are prohibited.

[9873210]

I always imagined when the battery gets low, the engine starts and runs at a fixed speed (for peak fuel efficiency) charging the battery, and the battery runs the electric motor which pushes the car along. Is this wrong?

That used to be the case with some 'range extender' type electric/petrol cars, the BMW i3 Range Extender was an example, but generally isn't the case now.

These days the battery is used for short/low speed/stop go, type journeys if it has charge from being plugged in or from regenerative charging, as it is ideal for those uses - fuel efficiency, environmental, etc. Then the petrol engine is generally used as a normal petrol engine in a car would be apart from that, although with the battery and motor providing a boost to performance when you 'floor it'. That isn't to say that with some cars you cannot change to a setting which will charge the battery from the engine, but that is really only useful if you don't have somewhere to plug it in and you need to use it regularly in a ULEZ zone where you have to use battery only as ICE are prohibited.

I know for sure about the Toyota hybrid drive train. If you run the PHEV battery down it will not run the engine continuously. Below about 40mph it will alternately run the engine to power the car and charge the battery, and then shut off the engine and run off the battery. It will not fully charge the battery, but it will charge the battery enough to run off it for several minutes.

I very much doubt there are many hybrids that operate as you suggest. If there are they were designed by tax accountants, not engineers. If you don't charge the battery you can't use it to boost performance when you "floor" it.

A PHEV has all the parts needed to operate as a HEV. The only reason not to run as a HEV when the battery is discharged is software. And they've already written the software to cycle the engine.

[AF62]

I very much doubt there are many hybrids that operate as you suggest. If there are they were designed by tax accountants, not engineers. If you don't charge the battery you can't use it to boost performance when you "floor" it.

You mean like the engineers at VW who designed the diesel 'cheat' software? The engineers who designed a car to provide fake figures for advertising and tax purposes but where the car behaved in a completely different way with regular users.

If the battery is charged then it will boost performance - well the battery was charged by plugging in for the advert - box ticked, job done and whatever it does in real life is irrelevant. If it isn't plugged in by the user to charge so there is no energy for a boost, well tough.

[9873210]

I very much doubt there are many hybrids that operate as you suggest. If there are they were designed by tax accountants, not engineers. If you don't charge the battery you can't use it to boost performance when you "floor" it.

You mean like the engineers at VW who designed the diesel 'cheat' software? The engineers who designed a car to provide fake figures for advertising and tax purposes but where the car behaved in a completely different way with regular users.

If the battery is charged then it will boost performance - well the battery was charged by plugging in for the advert - box ticked, job done and whatever it does in real life is irrelevant. If it isn't plugged in by the user to charge so there is no energy for a boost, well tough.

That is exactly what I mean. All those German "Engineers" should have their iron rings melted down. Or what ever German engineering societies do to drum bad actors out of the profession. Then they should go to prison.

[servodude]

I think my comment was misunderstood. It's not necessary per se to charge the battery from time to time. But if we want to use the electric power to drive the car then the battery would need charging.

Is it this model https://www.driving.co.uk/car-reviews/extended-tests/2020-skoda-octavia-iv-estate-plug-in-hybrid-review/

by unticking the ‘Auto’ box in the Drive Mode menu on the touchscreen, you can set a desired battery level. If you have more battery than required, the car will keep running in electric until it reaches that level, then switch to hybrid and hold that amount of charge in the battery. If there’s not enough charge in the battery, the petrol engine will work as a generator and top it up to the specified amount.

- as that sounds like it's more than just regenerative braking that charges the big battery

- sd

[AF62]

I think my comment was misunderstood. It's not necessary per se to charge the battery from time to time. But if we want to use the electric power to drive the car then the battery would need charging.

Is it this model https://www.driving.co.uk/car-reviews/extended-tests/2020-skoda-octavia-iv-estate-plug-in-hybrid-review/

by unticking the ‘Auto’ box in the Drive Mode menu on the touchscreen, you can set a desired battery level. If you have more battery than required, the car will keep running in electric until it reaches that level, then switch to hybrid and hold that amount of charge in the battery. If there’s not enough charge in the battery, the petrol engine will work as a generator and top it up to the specified amount.

- as that sounds like it's more than just regenerative braking that charges the big battery

- sd

As an optional function you need to specifically select rather than letting the car use the default. Such as when someone needs to ensure they have a minimum level of battery to use, for example in an electric only ULEZ.

If such a mode was more efficient then undoubtedly it would be the default, and it would seem that burning expensive and polluting petrol just to create electricity to store isn’t, but is the ‘least bad’ thing to do if you need to use battery only but can’t charge.

[swill453]

If such a mode was more efficient then undoubtedly it would be the default, and it would seem that burning expensive and polluting petrol just to create electricity to store isn’t, but is the ‘least bad’ thing to do if you need to use battery only but can’t charge.

Yes, common sense would say that if you start off fully charged, then do more than enough mileage to deplete the PHEV's battery, then immediately using the petrol engine to recharge it would more than negate any (cost or pollution) benefit you've just gained from it.

Scott.

[servodude]

If such a mode was more efficient then undoubtedly it would be the default, and it would seem that burning expensive and polluting petrol just to create electricity to store isn’t, but is the ‘least bad’ thing to do if you need to use battery only but can’t charge.

Yes, common sense would say that if you start off fully charged, then do more than enough mileage to deplete the PHEV's battery, then immediately using the petrol engine to recharge it would more than negate any (cost or pollution) benefit you've just gained from it.

Scott.

Common sense hasn't been a big part of motor efficiency curves in my experience though

Until reading that review I wasn't aware that you could set an operating point on the SOC for a hybrid
- made sense once I'd unpacked what an ULEZ was

-sd

[AF62]

- made sense once I'd unpacked what an ULEZ was

Apologies, I should have more correctly called it a ZEZ.

[servodude]

- made sense once I'd unpacked what an ULEZ was

Apologies, I should have more correctly called it a ZEZ.

No problem.
I didn't know either was "a thing"
- I can see how it adds some interesting hoops to jump through

-sd

[Mike4]

As an optional function you need to specifically select rather than letting the car use the default. Such as when someone needs to ensure they have a minimum level of battery to use, for example in an electric only ULEZ. .

Ok now there's another rabbit hole to dive down and explore.

How does the ULEZ or ZEZ know if the PHEV is driving compliantly on electricity, or non-compliantly using the engine?

[servodude]

As an optional function you need to specifically select rather than letting the car use the default. Such as when someone needs to ensure they have a minimum level of battery to use, for example in an electric only ULEZ. .

Ok now there's another rabbit hole to dive down and explore.

How does the ULEZ or ZEZ know if the PHEV is driving compliantly on electricity, or non-compliantly using the engine?

If it's not currently done through telematics it's just a matter of time

-sd

[AF62]

As an optional function you need to specifically select rather than letting the car use the default. Such as when someone needs to ensure they have a minimum level of battery to use, for example in an electric only ULEZ. .

Ok now there's another rabbit hole to dive down and explore.

How does the ULEZ or ZEZ know if the PHEV is driving compliantly on electricity, or non-compliantly using the engine?

Pass. At the moment probably relying on enforcement staff hearing/seeing the engine running, but it isn't much of a leap for the car to be required to self-report that it is in a compliant mode given that all new cars for the last few years have had to be connected to mobile networks to report if they have been in an accident, or even the car to be forced into a compliant mode when it enters the area.

[Mike4]

As an optional function you need to specifically select rather than letting the car use the default. Such as when someone needs to ensure they have a minimum level of battery to use, for example in an electric only ULEZ. .

Ok now there's another rabbit hole to dive down and explore.

How does the ULEZ or ZEZ know if the PHEV is driving compliantly on electricity, or non-compliantly using the engine?

Pass. At the moment probably relying on enforcement staff hearing/seeing the engine running, but it isn't much of a leap for the car to be required to self-report that it is in a compliant mode given that all new cars for the last few years have had to be connected to mobile networks to report if they have been in an accident, or even the car to be forced into a compliant mode when it enters the area.

Really? You're kidding surely.....

One more reason never to buy a new car!

[DrFfybes]

The point as i see it is that one day when all cars are electric drivers won't need to anything because the whole lot can be controlled by a satellite Itself controlled by government and/or whomsoever has hacked it) - which if and when things go wrong would result in all the cars on the road(s) crashing into one another: the ultimate re-boot.

Probably need a re-bonnet and a re-bumper as well

[kiloran]

Ok now there's another rabbit hole to dive down and explore.

How does the ULEZ or ZEZ know if the PHEV is driving compliantly on electricity, or non-compliantly using the engine?

Pass. At the moment probably relying on enforcement staff hearing/seeing the engine running, but it isn't much of a leap for the car to be required to self-report that it is in a compliant mode given that all new cars for the last few years have had to be connected to mobile networks to report if they have been in an accident, or even the car to be forced into a compliant mode when it enters the area.

Really? You're kidding surely.....

One more reason never to buy a new car!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall

--kiloran