Octavia battery v petrol costings

[brightncheerful]

I daresay something similar has been posted but I've done some costings from my point of view and would appreciate your comments (and on the arithmetic).

(Computations ignore VAT, some of which i can recover. Also I have ignored percentage of electricity standing charge)

Battery:

Octavia Estate at 3KW takes 6 hours to 100% charge = 18

Electricity day rate, i pay £0.2176 per unit ex VAT so * 18 = £3.92
Estimated miles per charge
20 = £0.1958 per mile
25 = £0.1567 per mile

For night rate (economy 7), I pay £0.1161 per unit ex VAT, hence £2.09
Estimated miles per charge
20 = £0.1045 per mile
25 = £0.0836 per mile

Obviously better value to charge the car at night

Petrol:
Number of litres per gallon (UK) = 4.54609
Estimated price 1 litre = £1.22 incl VAT
Estimated price 1 gallon = £5.55 incl VAT

Comparison estimated mpg
20 = £0.277 per mile
25 = £0.222 per mile

Assuming I get
43 mpg = £0.129 per mile
48 mpg = £0.116 per mile

[nmdhqbc]

Octavia Estate at 3KW takes 6 hours to 100% charge = 18

using 3kW for the whole 6 hours seemed high so i googled it. see search result below. it says type 1 (3 pin plug) uses about 10 amps so 230 x 10 = 2.3kW. also i'm not sure it would be consistently the same throughout the whole charge. the specs autotrader give says it has a usable capacity of 10.4kWh so i don't think it can be that much more than this. not sure what % efficiency losses there would be but wasting 7.6kWh out of 18kWh seems too high to me. i would monitor the meter to check this accurately. need to know the base load though to subtract it.

https://www.evrent.co.uk/2020/01/03/wha ... tric-cars/

[AF62]

Octavia Estate at 3KW takes 6 hours to 100% charge = 18

using 3kW for the whole 6 hours seemed high so i googled it. see search result below. it says type 1 (3 pin plug) uses about 10 amps so 230 x 10 = 2.3kW. also i'm not sure it would be consistently the same throughout the whole charge. the specs autotrader give says it has a usable capacity of 10.4kWh so i don't think it can be that much more than this. not sure what % efficiency losses there would be but wasting 7.6kWh out of 18kWh seems too high to me. i would monitor the meter to check this accurately. need to know the base load though to subtract it.

https://www.evrent.co.uk/2020/01/03/wha ... tric-cars/

The Skoda Octavia Hybrid has a 13 kWh battery, and 80% of that (80% is generally what it is recommended to charge to) is 10.4kWh.

20 miles in good weather from 10.4kWh would seem quite low, but a lot depends on how you drive, etc.

So taking a more optimistic 30 miles for 10.4kWh, at a night time rate that is 4p per mile.

And although you are comparing it to 12/13p per mile for petrol, does your car really deliver 43 to 48 mpg on a short journey first thing in the morning in the middle of winter? Mine would struggle to get into the 30s on a 4 mile journey to the station, even though 50 mpg when warmed up was easily achieved.

[nmdhqbc]

The Skoda Octavia Hybrid has a 13 kWh battery, and 80% of that (80% is generally what it is recommended to charge to) is 10.4kWh.

yeah, that's why i said usable capacity. but i think it's at the lower end too. would guess a PHEV will keep it above a certain % to keep it from being damaged too.

[Arborbridge]

Seems like these costings are variable feast. Depending who is doing it, you can make electric cars look cheap to run or pretty expensive.

Arb.

[nmdhqbc]

Seems like these costings are variable feast. Depending who is doing it, you can make electric cars look cheap to run or pretty expensive.

just have to calculate it right. check the meter for 6 hours without charging and without any washing machines etc. on then check meter with charging. the meter tells you exactly the cost with some multiplication. just need to look out for inaccuracies when people tell you how they worked it out. there is a real answer if you just work it out right.

of course the driving style and weather conditions will vary but that effects petrol efficiency too.

[swill453]

just have to calculate it right. check the meter for 6 hours without charging and without any washing machines etc. on then check meter with charging. the meter tells you exactly the cost with some multiplication. just need to look out for inaccuracies when people tell you how they worked it out. there is a real answer if you just work it out right.

Or if it's a 3-pin plug, plug it through one of these https://www.screwfix.com/p/energenie-en ... cket/3477h and it will tell you.

Scott.

[AF62]

Seems like these costings are variable feast. Depending who is doing it, you can make electric cars look cheap to run or pretty expensive.

Arb.

No, whatever calculations you do all electric cars are cheap to run. They are just damned expensive to buy!

Even if you were charging from an expensive commercial charger if you didn’t have (or want the expense of) a home charger, then 30 pence per kWh which is towards the top end of what non-motorway chargers will charge equates to around 7.5 to 10p per mile, so still cheaper than petrol.

Charge at home on a cheap tariff and you can push that down to less than 2p per mile, although that doesn’t take account of the cost of the charger, so say amortised that over three years, that is still less than 4p per mile (electricity and cost of charger).

Charge at work for free (which some people can) or charge at Tesco when you go shopping and the cost is zero.

But then you come back to the cost of the car - significantly more expensive than petrol for a BEV, but depending on use that additional cost might be repaid by lower running costs. With a PHEV the price difference is likely to be less, but the savings will depend largely on whether it is plugged in or not.

[Howard]

Seems like these costings are variable feast. Depending who is doing it, you can make electric cars look cheap to run or pretty expensive.

Arb.

No, whatever calculations you do all electric cars are cheap to run. They are just damned expensive to buy!

Even if you were charging from an expensive commercial charger if you didn’t have (or want the expense of) a home charger, then 30 pence per kWh which is towards the top end of what non-motorway chargers will charge equates to around 7.5 to 10p per mile, so still cheaper than petrol.

Charge at home on a cheap tariff and you can push that down to less than 2p per mile, although that doesn’t take account of the cost of the charger, so say amortised that over three years, that is still less than 4p per mile (electricity and cost of charger).

Charge at work for free (which some people can) or charge at Tesco when you go shopping and the cost is zero.

But then you come back to the cost of the car - significantly more expensive than petrol for a BEV, but depending on use that additional cost might be repaid by lower running costs. With a PHEV the price difference is likely to be less, but the savings will depend largely on whether it is plugged in or not.

Our new KIA BEV has now done over 830 miles. The smart charger I use measures the kWh it has put into the car. It's cost us just under 4p a mile for electricity and that's on our standard electricity tariff of 16.7 p per kWh. When Octopus connects my meter, I expect the cost to drop to around 5p per kWh as I'll charge overnight.

So there's no doubt in my mind that the electricity cost of running the car is incredibly low and quite a lot of our driving has been around 70 mph.

But it did cost just over £700 to install the 7kW charger in the garage!

The lease cost on the car over three years was no more expensive than for a petrol engined VW Golf and the car is a much higher spec.

regards

Howard

PS I did connect the car to a very fast public charger for fun for a short while at 30p per kWh, just to know how it worked and have allowed for the cost of that in the above calculation.

[Arborbridge]

Seems like these costings are variable feast. Depending who is doing it, you can make electric cars look cheap to run or pretty expensive.

just have to calculate it right. check the meter for 6 hours without charging and without any washing machines etc. on then check meter with charging. the meter tells you exactly the cost with some multiplication. just need to look out for inaccuracies when people tell you how they worked it out. there is a real answer if you just work it out right.

of course the driving style and weather conditions will vary but that effects petrol efficiency too.

Of course there's a real answer if we "just" do it correctly

[nmdhqbc]

Of course there's a real answer if we "just" do it correctly

really not that hard - go to the source - the meter is what dictates your bill. simple

[Arborbridge]

Of course there's a real answer if we "just" do it correctly

really not that hard - go to the source - the meter is what dictates your bill. simple

Not that hard, but at the beginning of this thread, it seems we had different answers - one from a user, and some from others - and that's what I was highlighting. So if it's not that hard......

At the user showed (yes, perhaps wrongly) that the electricity running cost was similar to the petrol cost. So it isn't that easy QED. I would point to a certain amount of hand waving from both the OP and subsequent commentators where "reasonable" assumptions were made. So we are left having to query which reaonable assumptions were correct and which weren't.

I'm not sure if BC managed to reconcile his figures with those of later posters and agreed that he had made a mistake or not. He has been silent since, so let's hope he can clear this up. Hopefully he will come back with further real life figures to clarify.


Arb.

[nmdhqbc]

Not that hard, but at the beginning of this thread, it seems we had different answers - one from a user, and some from others - and that's what I was highlighting. So if it's not that hard......

At the user showed (yes, perhaps wrongly) that the electricity running cost was similar to the petrol cost. So it isn't that easy QED. I would point to a certain amount of hand waving from both the OP and subsequent commentators where "reasonable" assumptions were made. So we are left having to query which reaonable assumptions were correct and which weren't.

I'm not sure if BC managed to reconcile his figures with those of later posters and agreed that he had made a mistake or not. He has been silent since, so let's hope he can clear this up. Hopefully he will come back with further real life figures to clarify.

just because someone got it wrong once does not mean it's difficult. has not taken long to get to the bottom of the issue. i think most people would not make assumptions. the default would surely be to look at the meter.

[Dod101]

IT is clearly useful to have an idea of the comparison but surely the thing that matters is that an electric car, almost any electric car will be much cheaper to run on a day to day basis than a petrol one. That is really all that we need to know. However it is the capital costs that are so very much different, including the cost of whatever home charger you need.

Dod

[Arborbridge]

IT is clearly useful to have an idea of the comparison but surely the thing that matters is that an electric car, almost any electric car will be much cheaper to run on a day to day basis than a petrol one. That is really all that we need to know. However it is the capital costs that are so very much different, including the cost of whatever home charger you need.

Dod

Unfortunately, that is exactly what we do not know: refer to the first post in this thread.
Various people come up with different numbers, and when we hear people talking about this in the media, I get the impression the overall running costs of electric vehicles is not yet on a par with petrol ones.
There is a lot of confusion and uncertainty out there - and you cannot ignore the capital costs which seem pretty gross.

When you bear in mind the limitations of electric mileage, the possible risk of not being able to recharge, the length of charging, the cost of and longevity or otherwise of batteries and the doubt about their green credentials - it all adds to the doubt and will slow down adoption. There's no convincing reason to replace one's petrol of diesel car at present, apart from pressure to become more "green" - even if that's true.

It still seems like early very days to me. Hopefully, things will clarify over the next two years, especially when we see VW and others launch new models. Maybe at that time, people like me will look more seriously at the possibilities.

Arb.

[Arborbridge]

Not that hard, but at the beginning of this thread, it seems we had different answers - one from a user, and some from others - and that's what I was highlighting. So if it's not that hard......

At the user showed (yes, perhaps wrongly) that the electricity running cost was similar to the petrol cost. So it isn't that easy QED. I would point to a certain amount of hand waving from both the OP and subsequent commentators where "reasonable" assumptions were made. So we are left having to query which reaonable assumptions were correct and which weren't.

I'm not sure if BC managed to reconcile his figures with those of later posters and agreed that he had made a mistake or not. He has been silent since, so let's hope he can clear this up. Hopefully he will come back with further real life figures to clarify.

just because someone got it wrong once does not mean it's difficult. has not taken long to get to the bottom of the issue. i think most people would not make assumptions. the default would surely be to look at the meter.

Sorry, you are jumping the gun. The replies to the first post make assumptions of their own. We haven't yet heard back from the OP so and we haven't yet got to the bottom of the issue. Just because a couple of people have used their own assumptions and dismissed the original practical observations does not mean they are correct.
I need that reconciliation to be agreed by BC rather than those who chipped in with thier own interpretation based on their own particularly enthusiastic agends. If he agrees, fair enough, but otherwise his silence suggests he is still working on it. Hopefully, he will come forward before long the present some further data which will reconcile the differences. Otherwise all we have is two sets of people with two differing sets of assumptions - not factual observtions at all but people saying "I should imagine my values are nearer the truth".

PS I agree about the meter, but there was no statement about the meter in this case, AFAIK, so that's a complete red herring. You suggested it as an improvement, but it isn't what happened.

Arb.

[Dod101]

IT is clearly useful to have an idea of the comparison but surely the thing that matters is that an electric car, almost any electric car will be much cheaper to run on a day to day basis than a petrol one. That is really all that we need to know. However it is the capital costs that are so very much different, including the cost of whatever home charger you need.

Dod

Unfortunately, that is exactly what we do not know: refer to the first post in this thread.
Various people come up with different numbers, and when we hear people talking about this in the media, I get the impression the overall running costs of electric vehicles is not yet on a par with petrol ones.
There is a lot of confusion and uncertainty out there - and you cannot ignore the capital costs which seem pretty gross.

When you bear in mind the limitations of electric mileage, the possible risk of not being able to recharge, the length of charging, the cost of and longevity or otherwise of batteries and the doubt about their green credentials - it all adds to the doubt and will slow down adoption. There's no convincing reason to replace one's petrol of diesel car at present, apart from pressure to become more "green" - even if that's true.

It still seems like early very days to me. Hopefully, things will clarify over the next two years, especially when we see VW and others launch new models. Maybe at that time, people like me will look more seriously at the possibilities.

Arb.

I am likely to replace my current petrol driven Q5 with another in the next few months. I am not prepared to be a trail blazer, but despite your scepticism, it seems fairly obvious to me that day to day running costs for electric cars are cheaper than for a petrol one.. I however could not be bothered with all the faffing about that an electric car, unless a non plug in hybrid, would bring. And then I would probably just use it as a petrol car anyway. I am in a semi rural location, do not take my car into the city and most of my trips are in the 50/100 mile range. When I go into the city I take the train, so polish my green credentials that way.

Dod

[Mike4]

No, whatever calculations you do all electric cars are cheap to run. They are just damned expensive to buy!

Quite so. Any figures that don't amortise the massive capital cost of getting access to those low marginal costs per mile, aren't properly valid in my opinion.

(Electric cars strike me as a little like crypto currencies at the moment, i.e. the technology is laden with uncertainty about its future viability. Both technologies have massive drawbacks and I think there is every possibility completely different technologies might yet emerge for either or both. History might yet consign rechargeable-battery-powered cars to the dustbin for a second time. I think it will take a generation for things to become clear though. Apologies for drifting off topic.)

[Arborbridge]

I am likely to replace my current petrol driven Q5 with another in the next few months. I am not prepared to be a trail blazer, but despite your scepticism, it seems fairly obvious to me that day to day running costs for electric cars are cheaper than for a petrol one.. I however could not be bothered with all the faffing about that an electric car, unless a non plug in hybrid, would bring. And then I would probably just use it as a petrol car anyway. I am in a semi rural location, do not take my car into the city and most of my trips are in the 50/100 mile range. When I go into the city I take the train, so polish my green credentials that way.

Dod

If ever you take the plunge, please keep us appraised
You mentioned day to day running costs a couple of times, but I you have to take into account the capital costs: otherwise it will be - as you would say - a dividend "expensively bought"

[Arborbridge]

No, whatever calculations you do all electric cars are cheap to run. They are just damned expensive to buy!

Quite so. Any figures that don't amortise the massive capital cost of getting access to those low marginal costs per mile, aren't properly valid in my opinion.

(Electric cars strike me as a little like crypto currencies at the moment, i.e. the technology is laden with uncertainty about its future viability. Both technologies have massive drawbacks and I think there is every possibility completely different technologies might yet emerge for either or both. History might yet consign rechargeable-battery-powered cars to the dustbin for a second time. I think it will take a generation for things to become clear though. Apologies for drifting off topic.)

Well, they certainly attract enthusiasts who are totally convinced, but I also meet people whose opinion I respect who voice opposite concerns.
This one will run and run until there is more day to day information - and more choice of cars for ordinary people.

Arb.