Generational ignorance

[MonsterMork]

Years ago I worked as a delivery driver for a car hire firm moving cars between different locations in the UK. I'd literally drive anything from a Bentley to a Fiesta and I have no memory of it being much more than a quick look for the light switches and whether it was derv or petrol. More lately I have been a user of multiple hire cars and began to find that more functions were becoming buried behind screens and menus, but the basics of moving the car was the same.

Try being an MoT Tester mate, new vehicle every hour Today I have driven petrol manual, petrol automatic, diesel manual, diesel automatic, hybrid automatic, fully electric automatic, town car, saloon car, SUV, pickup, van, front wheel drive, rear wheel drive and four wheel drive. Indicators have been on the left and on the right, windscreen washers have been on the right and on the left. Headlights have been on the right stalk, the left stalk or on the right of the dash. The handbrake has been on a lever by my left hand, a button by my left hand, a button by my right hand or a pedal by my left foot. And don't get me started on opening the bonnet or the fuel filler cap I need a lie down ...

NeedingAspirinMork

[Lootman]

Years ago I worked as a delivery driver for a car hire firm moving cars between different locations in the UK. I'd literally drive anything from a Bentley to a Fiesta and I have no memory of it being much more than a quick look for the light switches and whether it was derv or petrol. More lately I have been a user of multiple hire cars and began to find that more functions were becoming buried behind screens and menus, but the basics of moving the car was the same.

Try being an MoT Tester mate, new vehicle every hour Today I have driven petrol manual, petrol automatic, diesel manual, diesel automatic, hybrid automatic, fully electric automatic, town car, saloon car, SUV, pickup, van, front wheel drive, rear wheel drive and four wheel drive. Indicators have been on the left and on the right, windscreen washers have been on the right and on the left. Headlights have been on the right stalk, the left stalk or on the right of the dash. The handbrake has been on a lever by my left hand, a button by my left hand, a button by my right hand or a pedal by my left foot. And don't get me started on opening the bonnet or the fuel filler cap I need a lie down ...

NeedingAspirinMork

The guy who thought it was a good idea for the handbrake to be a button should be taken out into the street and shot.

[Urbandreamer]

The handbrake has been on a lever by my left hand, a button by my left hand, a button by my right hand or a pedal by my left foot. And don't get me started on opening the bonnet or the fuel filler cap I need a lie down ...

NeedingAspirinMork

And don't forget the infamous "fly off" hand break!

For those who don't know the normal lock button on the lever operates in reverse. Pull the lever, press the button, lower lever to apply hand brake.
To release, Yank lever and let go.

No, I'm not making it up. Here is an example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRZWX9reZJ0

[Mike4]

We have a BEV and an ICE model, so it’s easy for me to compare the two cars. The KIA BEV spec is surprisingly upmarket with a super infotainment system.....
My brand new petrol engine car has two screens, both customisable....

I wonder how long manufacturers will continue to support the software behind all this complexification of a device that merely needs to go, steer, and stop...
Will it become like 'smart' TVs, and phones, that are deliberately obsolesced....

V8

This worries me too, to a degree. I recently bought an Audi SQ5 to use as a van (as my Merc van keeps playing up) and bloody hell... its ten years old and more like driving a computer than a car! Pretty much everything is software controlled and super-configurable. A blisteringly fast car but with no 'driver engagement' whatsoever. It feels as 'real world' to drive as playing a computer game. I have this horrible premonition I'm going to kill myself in it. The old sports car expression 'point and squirt' is terribly apt for this one. I might have to get rid soon and choose something else more basic.

Gosh that was a bit of a rant wasn't it?!

[Lootman]

I wonder how long manufacturers will continue to support the software behind all this complexification of a device that merely needs to go, steer, and stop...
Will it become like 'smart' TVs, and phones, that are deliberately obsolesced....

This worries me too, to a degree. I recently bought an Audi SQ5 to use as a van (as my Merc van keeps playing up) and bloody hell... its ten years old and more like driving a computer than a car! Pretty much everything is software controlled and super-configurable. A blisteringly fast car but with no 'driver engagement' whatsoever. It feels as 'real world' to drive as playing a computer game. I have this horrible premonition I'm going to kill myself in it. The old sports car expression 'point and squirt' is terribly apt for this one. I might have to get rid soon and choose something else more basic.

Gosh that was a bit of a rant wasn't it?!

Something I have heard a lot from pilots is that they prefer flying Boeings to Airbus aircraft.

Boeings are more old school. You fly them by feel.

An Airbus is a glorified computer. The pilots press buttons, turn dials and watch screens.

I will probably never drive a car built in this century.

[Mike4]

This worries me too, to a degree. I recently bought an Audi SQ5 to use as a van (as my Merc van keeps playing up) and bloody hell... its ten years old and more like driving a computer than a car! Pretty much everything is software controlled and super-configurable. A blisteringly fast car but with no 'driver engagement' whatsoever. It feels as 'real world' to drive as playing a computer game. I have this horrible premonition I'm going to kill myself in it. The old sports car expression 'point and squirt' is terribly apt for this one. I might have to get rid soon and choose something else more basic.

Gosh that was a bit of a rant wasn't it?!

Something I have heard a lot from pilots is that they prefer flying Boeings to Airbus aircraft.

Boeings are more old school. You fly them by feel.

An Airbus is a glorified computer. The pilots press buttons, turn dials and watch screens.

I will probably never drive a car built in this century.

I've heard much the same.

One chap whose boiler I fixed said the 747 was his fave aeroplane ever. Despite its monster size (or so it seemed in the early days) it was beautifully pilot-friendly and (IIRC) went like a scalded cat - would power you out of any trouble if you opened the throttles and waited a bit!

[staffordian]

The guy who thought it was a good idea for the handbrake to be a button should be taken out into the street and shot.

Agreed. I wonder how new drivers, who have learned and passed their test on one of these, which usually incorporate hill hold fare when faced with a hill start in an old school handbraked car?

[servodude]

The guy who thought it was a good idea for the handbrake to be a button should be taken out into the street and shot.

Agreed. I wonder how new drivers, who have learned and passed their test on one of these, which usually incorporate hill hold fare when faced with a hill start in an old school handbraked car?

Hired an automatic once with the "hand brake" where the clutch should be. Seems like a recipe for surprise

[Lootman]

The guy who thought it was a good idea for the handbrake to be a button should be taken out into the street and shot.

Agreed. I wonder how new drivers, who have learned and passed their test on one of these, which usually incorporate hill hold fare when faced with a hill start in an old school handbraked car?

And I defy anyone to demonstrate a bitchin' handbrake turn with a button.

[staffordian]

Agreed. I wonder how new drivers, who have learned and passed their test on one of these, which usually incorporate hill hold fare when faced with a hill start in an old school handbraked car?

Hired an automatic once with the "hand brake" where the clutch should be. Seems like a recipe for surprise

Momentarily forgetting you are in an automatic and pushing down the 'clutch' can be interesting too. Luckily there was no-one close behind me

[DrFfybes]

Today I have driven petrol manual, petrol automatic, diesel manual, diesel automatic, hybrid automatic, fully electric automatic, town car, saloon car, SUV, pickup, van, front wheel drive, rear wheel drive and four wheel drive. Indicators have been on the left and on the right, windscreen washers have been on the right and on the left. Headlights have been on the right stalk, the left stalk or on the right of the dash. The handbrake has been on a lever by my left hand, a button by my left hand, a button by my right hand or a pedal by my left foot. And don't get me started on opening the bonnet or the fuel filler cap I

Excellent - can I have your phone numberfor next time I'm sat struggling in a hire car in a fuel station?

[bungeejumper]

The guy who thought it was a good idea for the handbrake to be a button should be taken out into the street and shot.

Agreed. I wonder how new drivers, who have learned and passed their test on one of these, which usually incorporate hill hold fare when faced with a hill start in an old school handbraked car?

Aah, the joys of the push-button handbrake. The PBH on my B6 Passat completely bewildered me at first, but the fun started after I got used to it. Some cars auto-release when you drive off, and some don't. Some will do a hill-hold and release, but mine didn't, so you had to be clever with the throttle, the clutch and the button all at once. (The steep loading ramps on car ferries were a particular favourite. )

In short, you'd have needed a three minute tutorial before you knew how to deal with that handbrake, as distinct from any other. But even that wouldn't have prepared you for the inevitable day when you released the handbrake and the wheels remained locked, because the effing electronic piston within the effing electronic brake hub had failed in the effing rain.

Yes, it happened to pretty well every B6 driver at some time, judging by the Passat owners' forums. Mine happened when I was leaving a rain-sodden car park in rural Gloucestershire. Better than on the M25, I suppose, but I had a four year old passenger who desperately needed a wee. The AA patrolman told us to stay in the car (well, it was raining hard), and then he jacked up the car with us all inside it, and within ten minutes he'd disabled the offside piston and told us to get it to a garage, and not to expect too much from the now-lopsided handbrake in the meantime. It seemd like a lot of bother for the sake of not having a traditional pull-up handbrake.

BJ

[swill453]

I'd forgotten that hill starts could be difficult. They're a complete breeze in my Polo DSG. Keep in Drive with foot on brake, move foot at leisure to accelerator and take off. Car doesn't roll back, no handbrake needed.

Scott.

[BigB]

Something I have heard a lot from pilots is that they prefer flying Boeings to Airbus aircraft.

Boeings are more old school. You fly them by feel.

An Airbus is a glorified computer. The pilots press buttons, turn dials and watch screens.

I will probably never drive a car built in this century.

I've heard much the same.

One chap whose boiler I fixed said the 747 was his fave aeroplane ever. Despite its monster size (or so it seemed in the early days) it was beautifully pilot-friendly and (IIRC) went like a scalded cat - would power you out of any trouble if you opened the throttles and waited a bit!

Many years ago my wife and I did a 747 experience in the BA simulators at Hounslow, hosted by a BA pilot. Very impressive. He showed us how he could bank it at 60 degrees (I'm sure he said 60!) coming out of Las Vegas and my wife's motion sickness/ear thing kicked in and didn't clear properly for 3 months.

[bungeejumper]

Many years ago my wife and I did a 747 experience in the BA simulators at Hounslow, hosted by a BA pilot. Very impressive. He showed us how he could bank it at 60 degrees (I'm sure he said 60!) coming out of Las Vegas and my wife's motion sickness/ear thing kicked in and didn't clear properly for 3 months.

Thanks for the memory. There used to be one at the Yeovilton Fleet Air Arm Museum, which would also do rally driving simulations that could turn your stomach inside out. IIRC, they wouldn't let you spend more than about 15 minutes inside the thing, in case you fell over and cracked your head as you tried to leave.

BJ

[88V8]

The handbrake has been on a lever by my left hand, a button by my left hand, a button by my right hand or a pedal by my left foot.

And don't forget the infamous "fly off" hand break!
No, I'm not making it up. Here is an example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRZWX9reZJ0

It used to be standard fitting on some sports cars. Triumphs until the TR4.
I had an Austin 7 Special so fitted.

V8

[airbus330]

This worries me too, to a degree. I recently bought an Audi SQ5 to use as a van (as my Merc van keeps playing up) and bloody hell... its ten years old and more like driving a computer than a car! Pretty much everything is software controlled and super-configurable. A blisteringly fast car but with no 'driver engagement' whatsoever. It feels as 'real world' to drive as playing a computer game. I have this horrible premonition I'm going to kill myself in it. The old sports car expression 'point and squirt' is terribly apt for this one. I might have to get rid soon and choose something else more basic.

Gosh that was a bit of a rant wasn't it?!

Something I have heard a lot from pilots is that they prefer flying Boeings to Airbus aircraft.

Boeings are more old school. You fly them by feel.

An Airbus is a glorified computer. The pilots press buttons, turn dials and watch screens.

I will probably never drive a car built in this century.

True in part. Pilots are as much liable to being Luddite as anyone else. Many coming off an analogue a/c to the Bus struggled with the fact that a deep understanding of how the sytems interacted with the pilot and in some cases prevented the pilot from doing silly things. The phrase 'Whats it doing now?' was very prevalent. Eventually most realised that the safety added by the prevention of doing silly things was a career saving feature. Those that couldn't adapt left to fly old stuff in exotic locations. A friend who did the reverse onto an old 737-300 said it was the hardest thing he'd done in his career. These days there is not much between the newer a/c to complain about. All computer driven one way or another.

[9873210]

The guy who thought it was a good idea for the handbrake to be a button should be taken out into the street and shot.

Agreed. I wonder how new drivers, who have learned and passed their test on one of these, which usually incorporate hill hold fare when faced with a hill start in an old school handbraked car?

I wonder how new drivers, who have always learned and passed their test with synchromesh, will fare when faced with a proper crash box?

Oh wait, we've already done that.

[Urbandreamer]

Agreed. I wonder how new drivers, who have learned and passed their test on one of these, which usually incorporate hill hold fare when faced with a hill start in an old school handbraked car?

I wonder how new drivers, who have always learned and passed their test with synchromesh, will fare when faced with a proper crash box?

Oh wait, we've already done that.

As said. We can ALWAYS learn "new" things. This thread starts from the premise that inexperience and lack of knowledge, presupposes an inability to learn.

Don't get me wrong, there IS a strong inability to learn. We have all seen it. Indeed many have experienced it. This site is principally about finance. How many know people who can't understand percentages? Who can't get their head around compound interest or the compounding of reinvestment?

I SERIOUSLY doubt that the fans on this thread of "simple" machines, could not learn. They just, RIGHTLY, feel that they should not be forced to do so.
However the world is ignoring them. They need to chose to learn, or to find means so that they need not. Even a BEV can be simple. It doesn't NEED to be as complicated as a Tesla. I have seen many over decades that are very simple machines. Mostly, to be admitted, conversions of otherwise simple IC vehicles. However THAT is my point. The people doing the conversion wanted to avoid the additional complexity common in many IC cars.

The BEV / Hybrid stuff is a red herring. At least in terms of complexity / learning.

Ps, I read a very funny book that entailed a chase of a modern car by a Stanly steamer. Yes the cops in the steamer caught the crooks (the SS was a FAST car), but they ignored their car at that point busy waiting for support. Entailing a total rebuild as the boiler ran dry and warped. Yes they did have "Generational ignorance". Not normally a problem in their day to day job.

[Lootman]

I wonder how new drivers, who have always learned and passed their test with synchromesh, will fare when faced with a proper crash box?

Oh wait, we've already done that.

As said. We can ALWAYS learn "new" things. This thread starts from the premise that inexperience and lack of knowledge, presupposes an inability to learn.

At least with the demographic on TLF, it is not about inability to learn. It is about being unwilling to learn new things when the payoff seems so small.

The trend, not just limited to cars, is to add features and functions that people do not want or need, that add complexity, cost, a learning curve and maintenance liabilities, presumably for marketing purposes or as an excuse to raise prices.

In my youth I was many times an early adopter of what passed then for technology. So I had a colour TV, a VCR, an electronic calculator, a proper hi-fi system, a SLR camera, a Sony walkman etc. before most of my peers. Those were significant and useful inventions but by the 1990s I was less interested in new gadgets and technology. I held off on a mobile phone until about 2000, and did not get a smartphone until 2018. I only do lightweight tasks on a PC, and Excel did everything I need 25 years ago. My car is a 2003 model.

I am perfectly happy with my toy portfolio and so why should I invest time and effort for stuff I do not want or need? And worse, why do I sometimes feel that I am being forced and manipulated into adopting fancy tech that actually makes my life worse?