Entering a roundabout

[9873210]

You have to assume somethings. If you don't you will fail a test. For example single carriageways can't work unless you assume oncoming drivers are not suicidal maniacs.

I don't know if you've ever ridden a motorbike, but the whole art of staying alive is to assume that every car driver is a suicidal (or murderous) maniac. Probably one in a hundred shouldn't be allowed out on his own.

The motorbike people say that but they can't do it. There is no way to avoid a head on collision with a homicidal oncoming driver who swerves at the last second. Even the drivers who should not be allowed out on their own are somewhat predictable in their mistakes. You need to be looking for these somewhat common errors and not the very rare actual homicidal maniac.

[9873210]

Germans (generally I love them dearly* so this is honestly not a remark against them) have IMO only a fleeting understanding of what those of us in the UK call a roundabout. They call it a Kreisverkehr, which could be falsely interpreted as circular sex, but it should not be assumed that because they have a word for it that they know much about the thing at all. They only have five of them in the whole of the German federal republic** so don't assume they approach them with relish (as most of us do I suspect).

** Exaggerated for comic effect,

When were you last in Germany?

Reading the traffic management literature, the Germans and much of the world, have had significant discussion and adoption of roundabouts in the last two decades. My random perusal of google maps found a half dozen in a few square miles of Germany. They can't be that rare, although perhaps more common in some areas than others.

I have experience with a city I visit regularly in the US. Twenty years ago there were no roundabouts. They've been adding a couple a year since then. Now, if not exactly common there are enough that most drivers are used to them. The behaviour of the locals has changed over the decades. When I encountered the first one the locals were scary. People would come to a full stop in random places. It was so bad that I checked the NY State driver's manual to check the rules. It turned out there were no rules in the driver's manual. However, there was a supplement, which gave rules similar to those in the UK (mirrored for right side driving). The only substantial difference was you were not supposed to signal a left turn during the approach. Now the rules are in the driver's manual, and the roundabouts function as designed, except for the occasional visitor from Massachusetts.

[csearle]

When were you last in Germany?

July 22, but I take your point, they have doubtless been building roundabouts relentlessly since I lived there. In my defence I was exaggerating for comic effect. I'm sure they are all wonderful roundabout-users now. C.

[Edit to correct date.]

[servodude]

Given the increase in the number of emboldened (others may wish to apply alternative adjectives) cyclists, I would also check my passenger wing mirror to ensure that velcro man wasn't charging up the inside with no intention of stopping.

T7

Didn't you do this anyway before they were emboldened.

....and what's with cycling in Velcro? Seems rather niche, but I'm interested in why... Is it for picking up dander?

[Nimrod103]

If a German approaches a UK roundabout on a dual carriageway in the left hand lane with the hope of taking the third exit er/sie will probably not bother getting into the right-hand lane but will stick stoically to the safe leftmost one. Er/Sie will probably indicate left because they are entering a one-way street, albeit a short circular one, where you are only allowed to turn left. They will innocently keep left whilst turning right, i.e. cut across anyone next to them (in lane 2) going straight on.

I haven't done a lot of driving on the continent, but in my experience of France and Spain, this is exactly what happens. Most drivers traverse the roundabout in the slow lane no matter where they are heading. It really upset me until i got the hang of it.

Getting back to the original question, my behaviour would depend on the traffic speed. because I would have to be prepared for the van to veer into my own lane at any moment. So if travelling pretty slowly I might use the van as a shield, but at moderate speeds, no. I must say that I always steer fairly clear of vans and lorries, especially when they are cornering, because they seem so much bigger nowadays, with frequent overhangs and drivers who might not know the rules on British roads.

[doolally]

If a German approaches a UK roundabout on a dual carriageway in the left hand lane with the hope of taking the third exit er/sie will probably not bother getting into the right-hand lane but will stick stoically to the safe leftmost one. Er/Sie will probably indicate left because they are entering a one-way street, albeit a short circular one, where you are only allowed to turn left. They will innocently keep left whilst turning right, i.e. cut across anyone next to them (in lane 2) going straight on.

Be aware fellow Fools. These people mean no harm. They are just untrained in our ways.

Chris

I used to work in East Kilbride, and what you describe fits perfectly with my observations of many drivers on the multitude of roundabouts in that town. It always intrigued me how it was so different from most other towns. I assumed that there were some bad driving instructors who had embedded bad habits, but it's now clear..... there were/are many germans living in East Kilbride.
doolally

[Nimrod103]

I haven't done a lot of driving on the continent, but in my experience of France and Spain, this is exactly what happens. Most drivers traverse the roundabout in the slow lane no matter where they are heading. It really upset me until i got the hang of it.

Saying that, I think it is perfectly legal in the UK, unless the road marking specifically disallow it. Which is why one should never assume anything about other drivers intentions.

[servodude]

If a German approaches a UK roundabout on a dual carriageway in the left hand lane with the hope of taking the third exit er/sie will probably not bother getting into the right-hand lane but will stick stoically to the safe leftmost one. Er/Sie will probably indicate left because they are entering a one-way street, albeit a short circular one, where you are only allowed to turn left. They will innocently keep left whilst turning right, i.e. cut across anyone next to them (in lane 2) going straight on.

Be aware fellow Fools. These people mean no harm. They are just untrained in our ways.

Chris

I used to work in East Kilbride, and what you describe fits perfectly with my observations of many drivers on the multitude of roundabouts in that town. It always intrigued me how it was so different from most other towns. I assumed that there were some bad driving instructors who had embedded bad habits, but it's now clear..... there were/are many germans living in East Kilbride.
doolally

Intrigued and East Kilbride in the same post! That must be some kind of record!

[bungeejumper]

I don't know if you've ever ridden a motorbike, but the whole art of staying alive is to assume that every car driver is a suicidal (or murderous) maniac. Probably one in a hundred shouldn't be allowed out on his own.

The motorbike people say that but they can't do it. There is no way to avoid a head on collision with a homicidal oncoming driver who swerves at the last second.

Oh, but there is. Ideally, you identify them in advance (drivers of certain marques come to mind ), and you allow more space for people who behave in certain ways - that old sixth sense. Believe me, nobody is as road-aware as a biker who's successfully survived his first five years!

If all else fails in a stupidity scenario, you do the decent thing with that handlebar thingy and drop the bike if necessary. I once had to do that when a three-year-old ran out in front of me from between two parked cars in Brum. The fact that I was doing 10 mph at the time didn't really count for anything: at that moment, it was the right and only thing to do. The mother grabbed the kid, clipped his ear and swore at me as I lay in the road. You can't win.

Even the drivers who should not be allowed out on their own are somewhat predictable in their mistakes. You need to be looking for these somewhat common errors and not the very rare actual homicidal maniac.

Sounds like you've never met my ex.

BJ

[jaizan]

I always go in these situations, unless caught by surprise & not ready to nail it.

The van shields me, unless there's another vehicle going at stupid speeds. Bear in mind, I'm usually observing what's coming from well before the roundabout. If I've stopped, I try to stop where I can see across the front of the van anyway.

[kiloran]

If a German approaches a UK roundabout on a dual carriageway in the left hand lane with the hope of taking the third exit er/sie will probably not bother getting into the right-hand lane but will stick stoically to the safe leftmost one. Er/Sie will probably indicate left because they are entering a one-way street, albeit a short circular one, where you are only allowed to turn left. They will innocently keep left whilst turning right, i.e. cut across anyone next to them (in lane 2) going straight on.

Be aware fellow Fools. These people mean no harm. They are just untrained in our ways.

Chris

I used to work in East Kilbride, and what you describe fits perfectly with my observations of many drivers on the multitude of roundabouts in that town. It always intrigued me how it was so different from most other towns. I assumed that there were some bad driving instructors who had embedded bad habits, but it's now clear..... there were/are many germans living in East Kilbride.
doolally

Yes, when coming home from work, I found the Birniehill roundabout particularly prone to this behaviour. Might not have been germans, have you considered that perhaps many people from East Kilbride moved to Germany and taught german drivers some bad habits

--kiloran

[Gerry557]

It's always interesting seeing how to deal with other countries driving habbits. You have the difficulties in the language barrier and driving on a different side of the road.

Of course jonny foreigner has the same issue coming here except he probably speaks more English than we do Jonny.

Here is an American take on one of our roundabouts



https://youtu.be/6OGvj7GZSIo?si=-wNrzMdGdZ7NinIn

Still the Americans have some unusual driving habits. They take turns at cross roads. I can't see that working for German skiers Both lanes stop when their school busses stop to allow kids to cross. The only problem is when they export their values. Mainly the military. They pop off the base and nearly get killed getting off the buss because Jonny has never done that.

They occasionally drive on the wrong side of the road (then run away when they kill a motor cyclist ) but I've made that mistake too.

I also remember getting in the car to drive off only to realise the steering wheel was on the other side of the car. Muscle memory I think it's called.

There are other fun countries to drive, Cyprus Egypt and Qatar spring to mind.

[bungeejumper]

There are other fun countries to drive, Cyprus Egypt and Qatar spring to mind.

Possibly for the same reason that I found it tricky to drive in mid-sized Greek towns. Nearly all the road signs were in the cyrillic script! It's surprising how fast you can learn to decipher the squiggles when your life depends on it.

BJ

[Lootman]

Still the Americans have some unusual driving habits. They take turns at cross roads. .

Are you referring there to the ability to turn right at a red light? Or to 4-way stops?

Both seem reasonable to me.

[Gerry557]

4 way stops. I couldn't see people here stopping and waiting for the other 3 to go first. I suppose having guns might make drivers more likely to observe the rules.

Stopping at stop signs in the middle of nowhere with nothing in sight didn't seem as reasonable except for the policeman watching and waiting for me not too.

[Lootman]

4 way stops. I couldn't see people here stopping and waiting for the other 3 to go first. I suppose having guns might make drivers more likely to observe the rules.

It works better than you might think. It came as a shock to me to personally witness how polite most American drivers are at 4-way stops. Of course there are always a few who will take advantage.

That said I prefer roundabouts as you do not have to stop if your route through is free.

Stopping at stop signs in the middle of nowhere with nothing in sight didn't seem as reasonable except for the policeman watching and waiting for me not too.

US cops find the cleverest places to hide in order to catch drivers who do not come to a complete halt. But then some US municipalities get up to 25% of their revenues from traffic fines and tickets, so there is that. Is it any worse than speed cameras, which you rarely see in the US as they do not work well there, due to the 5th amendment?

[Charlottesquare]

The UK government addressed the issue of foreigners and roundabouts when designing the access roads out of North Shields ferry port, it is obviously a training ground to get them acclimatised as it is roundabout after roundabout.

In effect step one get of ferry, sit in wrong side of car for road and drive on wrong side of road.
Step two, try to go around a roundabout clockwise not anti clockwise.

Having said that the training programme has been reduced as there are now only ferries from the Netherlands and none anymore from Germany, Norway and Sweden.

(In parts of Europe they instead try to terrify UK drivers by having inside cycle paths that have the right of way across intersecting T junctions, so right turns need real concentration)

[swill453]

(In parts of Europe they instead try to terrify UK drivers by having inside cycle paths that have the right of way across intersecting T junctions, so right turns need real concentration)

Just like in the UK, you mean?


https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/highway-code-change-cyclists-introduced-22882595

Scott.

[Charlottesquare]

(In parts of Europe they instead try to terrify UK drivers by having inside cycle paths that have the right of way across intersecting T junctions, so right turns need real concentration)

Just like in the UK, you mean?


https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/highway-code-change-cyclists-introduced-22882595

Scott.

Yes, but the cycle ways are set well back from the road (Often x feet strip of ground betwwen road and cycle path) , often by quite a few feet (especially in Denmark and Sweden) ,so your side mirror may not even detect them if they are close. What you need to do is effectively remember which cyclists you have passed and crick your neck well round when turning.

[Lootman]

a

(In parts of Europe they instead try to terrify UK drivers by having inside cycle paths that have the right of way across intersecting T junctions, so right turns need real concentration)

Just like in the UK, you mean?


https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/highway-code-change-cyclists-introduced-22882595

The US solves this problem in a different way. A car making a turn has to move into the bike lane, effectively preventing the cyclist entering the danger zone.

I actually got a "fail" for not doing this when I took the California driving test 25 years ago. But you are allowed up to 15 fails and can still pass the test, which I did.