Used EV prices

[DrFfybes]

A friend ordered a new electric car just before Covid, a VW of some sort, I saw him at mum's funeral and he was saying how good it was and it was worth more than he paid for it.

At the weekend he was bemoaning how much it had dropped in the last 2 years, so I decided to look at the cost of a used BEV. Gosh some of them seem cheap.

If you want a local runabout with little range, a Golf for £11.5k https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-detail ... 2194920839 is at least 25% cheaper than a petrol one with equivalent age and mileage on it (OK, so you're not going to clock up the miles with that range).

Similarly a main dealer i-pace versus f-pace if they are your bag, and AFAICT the electric one was £20k more when they were new.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-detail ... 1035206098
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-detail ... 1055280478

And a whole bunch of small runabouts, Leafs, Zoes, Smarts, and i3s for under £10k, even Minis, and the odd 'proper' sized car in there like the Ioniq and Merc B class. The Renualt Twizzy is almost looking like it is gaining Cult status, certainly a lot of fun for £6k. Except the od ZOE these all appear to be low range versions, so probaby unpopular?

Am I missing something with the apparent steeper depreciation, or is it likely the lease deals have been overgenerous? For our next semi urban runabout then these are almost getting tempting.

Paul

[redsturgeon]

I'd suggest that these prices represent the fact that people are afraid of buying because they are unsure about the battery life of EVs. If you buy a three year old EV how long might the batteries be good for and if they fail then the car is basically scrap.

[bungeejumper]

I read somewhere that EV sales in Britain were down last year. Musta been something to do weith the price of electricity. Or maybe it was the terrible insurance premiums? Or maybe people just didn't have £40-50K jingling in their back pockets?

A friend of a friend bought a secondhand Zoe, and he likes it, but he has to rent the battery instead of owning it. That scheme was introduced as a sweetener at a time when people were worrying about battery life, and I think it's no longer on offer now. But with the battery rental now down to £25 a month, a used model on that deal might be worth considering.

Downside: only a 22 kwh battery! Whereas the current model has 52 kwh and a claimed 245 mile range.

There isn't any way that I'd afford a new EV, because my mileage (7K per annum) wouldn't justify the outlay. But batteries are lasting better than predicted, so maybe the midlife death sentence isn't quite as imminent as it used to be claimed? Will think again when my 2014 Toyota finally expires. That'll be 2044, then.

BJ

[Midsmartin]

I'd suggest that these prices represent the fact that people are afraid of buying because they are unsure about the battery life of EVs. If you buy a three year old EV how long might the batteries be good for and if they fail then the car is basically scrap.

I think this is part of the reason yes. But most ev batteries have long warranties (eg 8 years), and the risk of them failing is quite small.

The daily mail etc loves to publish ev scare stories too, often misleading.

The current insurance hikes don't help either, though that also effects petrol cars to a large degree.

[forgotusername]

Main reason people are not buying EV's isn't to do with batteries IMO. It's where am I going to charge it? Fine if you travel mainly on motorways and don't mind waiting for a charge point to become available. Not so fine if you want to use rural roads where charging is patchy to say the least. I drive an EV, an i3, and it's great but it's the REX version with petrol generator just in case I can't find a charging station. Until there are many more RELIABLY available charge points, I can't see the situation changing much.

[Urbandreamer]

Main reason people are not buying EV's isn't to do with batteries IMO. It's where am I going to charge it? Fine if you travel mainly on motorways and don't mind waiting for a charge point to become available. Not so fine if you want to use rural roads where charging is patchy to say the least. I drive an EV, an i3, and it's great but it's the REX version with petrol generator just in case I can't find a charging station. Until there are many more RELIABLY available charge points, I can't see the situation changing much.

Out of interest, how often do you charge at home and how often have you felt a need to fill the tank?
Real world examples are a far better source than what someone read in a newspaper.

[Arborbridge]

I bought an EV in March and so far so good. We've all heard the horror stories which the Mail and others like to write up, but my real life experience is rather different - maybe I've just been lucky.

Insurance for an iD3, paid in March, was £378. Let's hope the horror stories of increases aren't quite so bad when it comes up for renewal this year.

Charging on journeys: self-induced anxiety, but so far almost no problems. I've done a couple of 200 mile and back trips, and one round trip of 1000 miles. My return started with a full tank in Alnwick, I charged once on the way down then reached home in Sussex with 30 miles to spare. I had no queing for charge points, and only one which didn't connect - that was remedied by using the next one along. There was one occasion when staying in Lincoln when I could see the A1 services had a queue, so all I did was buzz off to a garage in the city and charged there (with two empty charge points) - quite near our B and B.

Honestly, I love driving the car, and my self induced anxiety isn't so much range as whether I will suss out how to connect and then disconnect from the charger. So far, my anxiety has proved unfounded, though I have had help from other EV drivers on a couple of occasions. I expect as my experience grows, such anxiety will reduce.

NB: for everyday use, I charge at home at 7.5p a kWh.

Arb.

[scotview]

A friend ordered a new electric car just before Covid, a VW of some sort, and he was saying how good it was and it was worth more than he paid for it.

Paul

I track the resale cost of my cars using webuyanycar. Have a look at the rollercoaster depreciation/appreciation graph of our VW ID3.

[Arborbridge]

A friend ordered a new electric car just before Covid, a VW of some sort, and he was saying how good it was and it was worth more than he paid for it.

Paul

I track the resale cost of my cars using webuyanycar. Have a look at the rollercoaster depreciation/appreciation graph of our VW ID3.

Imteresting chart and about what I expected. We went through a really extraordinary period when people were making profits on selling there cars. That could last - though some tyros thought it would - and all that's happened is that some normality has been regained. Naturally, anti-EV papers like the Mail make much of this falling back of prices as though it is some sort of "proof" that EV are losing popularity. The opposite is true - we are seeing that EVs have become more frequent on the roads and the folk who drive them seem to love them. in general, despite the obvious trade offs.

Believe me, I have chewed over all the disadvantages myself, but I am happy to own one so far. We do have the luxury of two cars, though, and the second is an elderly diesel Merc.

Arb.

[Lanark]

1) insane complexity of charging, needing multiple accounts/cards with the different networks
2) High price of many charge points
3) High and rising price of insurance
4) High depreciation of car
5) Unknown battery life
6) Unknown future electricity costs
7) for Teslas, everyone will think you are an Alt-Right Elon Musk fanboy
8) for Teslas, depreciation is being baked in because every new model is significantly cheaper than the older models.

[bungeejumper]

1) insane complexity of charging, needing multiple accounts/cards with the different networks
2) High price of many charge points
3) High and rising price of insurance
4) High depreciation of car
5) Unknown battery life
6) Unknown future electricity costs
7) for Teslas, everyone will think you are an Alt-Right Elon Musk fanboy
8) for Teslas, depreciation is being baked in because every new model is significantly cheaper than the older models.

You forgot that they do two and a half times as much damage to road surfaces. But apart fom that, they're OK?

I noted with interest the BBC's report on building non-rapid chargers into urban street lights. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67518869) It seemed like quite a good idea until I saw the long curly blue cable in the second photo down. I thought it was illegal to set wire snares?

BJ

[Urbandreamer]

You forgot that they do two and a half times as much damage to road surfaces. But apart fom that, they're OK?

That is a complicated can of worms.

If you totally ignore EV's and turn the clock back 15-20 years you could make EXACTLY the same claim about luxury cars, sports cars and Chelsea Tractors.

Vehicle damage to road surfaces is caused by weight (see Chelsea Tractors and luxury cars), power and grip (see sports cars).

To make the argument that you do, you must argue against range, safety and performance. Clearly we should all drive that stunning car, the 2CV. After all if it can cross a farmers field without braking eggs, then it's obviously the ideal car for the UK's potholed roads.
https://www.fwi.co.uk/machinery/2cv-bea ... rosser-4x4

[woolly]

Talking of the 2cv, it's just one of many classic cars that are seeing a renaissance thanks to EV tech:
https://fullycharged.show/episodes/citroen-2cv-electric-this-brand-new-electric-van-weighs-less-than-a-tesla-battery/

[bungeejumper]

Talking of the 2cv, it's just one of many classic cars that are seeing a renaissance thanks to EV tech:
https://fullycharged.show/episodes/citroen-2cv-electric-this-brand-new-electric-van-weighs-less-than-a-tesla-battery/

Ah yes, I used to know Charlie Ware (of the old Morris Minor Centre in Bath), who moved on to 2CVs once the remaining stock of moggies had crumbled into serious-money reconstruction territory. The beauty of the 2CV was that it was made of old iron girders that would last forever. Masses of them still around in sunny southern France.

Trouble was, those iron girders running from front to back had no structural give in them. In a collision, the crumple zone was the driver! But probably well suited for supporting half a tonne of battery. Why, that 2CV EV will probably last you a lifetime. However long that turns out to be.

BJ

[Arborbridge]

You forgot that they do two and a half times as much damage to road surfaces. But apart fom that, they're OK?



BJ

From your comments, it looks like your a baked in anti or sceptic. But apart from that, why pick on EVs? I've no idea where this two and half times comes from or what it is compared with, though it seems to me that other vehicles on the road are just as damaging as is the vast increase in white vans buzzing along country lanes not designed for them. We also have very heavy lorries moving around for which the roads were not originally built, in ever increasing numbers. So, see beyond your bias and be a little fairer in seeing that many other vehicles are to blame.

The problem with potholes is not solely down to EVs - of that one can be sure. The heavy rainfall has undermined many of our secondary roads and A roads and together with the government trying to cutting expenditure road maintenance has been unable to keep up with the challenge. I've noticed in out area that potholes which were repaired were not done thoroughly, so that within weeks they are opening up again.

[DrFfybes]

1) insane complexity of charging, needing multiple accounts/cards with the different networks
2) High price of many charge points
3) High and rising price of insurance
4) High depreciation of car
5) Unknown battery life
6) Unknown future electricity costs
7) for Teslas, everyone will think you are an Alt-Right Elon Musk fanboy
8) for Teslas, depreciation is being baked in because every new model is significantly cheaper than the older models.

Agree with some of those, I've heard mixed things about charging costs, but the decrease in smug levels suggests supermarkets aren't free any more. Batteries are an unknown, more to the point the popular opinion is that it depends on how they're treated, so 2 identical cars after 5 years could have very different ranges.

Insurance seems to be up across the board, in London some companies won't insure cars with Keyless entry or any large SUV. Our old Toyota is renewing this month, renewal quote up from £135 to £160, but loads of companies same or cheaper than last year, some under £100.

Future electricity costs are probably as predicatable as future petrol cost, it virtually doubled between June 2020 and June 2022, then fell again.

I wouldn't touch a Musk product on principle (and whilst my mate loves his Tesla 3, I think it is overly gadgetty and plasticky, and he was also the person who had to borrow cash off me when he prematurely decided paying for everything with his watch was a good idea).

I track the resale cost of my cars using webuyanycar. Have a look at the rollercoaster depreciation/appreciation graph of our VW ID3.

Wow, that's a brilliantly simple way of getting an idea of the market trend. I can see what my friend means about the recent decline in value, nearly 50% in 18 months sounds bad, but really just reverting to the expected value.

IVehicle damage to road surfaces is caused by weight (see Chelsea Tractors and luxury cars), power and grip (see sports cars)

You mean the sorts of vehicles that tend to pay more VED

Paul

[bungeejumper]

From your comments, it looks like your a baked in anti or sceptic. But apart from that, why pick on EVs? I've no idea where this two and half times comes from or what it is compared with, though it seems to me that other vehicles on the road are just as damaging as is the vast increase in white vans buzzing along country lanes not designed for them. We also have very heavy lorries moving around for which the roads were not originally built, in ever increasing numbers. So, see beyond your bias and be a little fairer in seeing that many other vehicles are to blame.

That's not quite fair, but hey, it's a cold Wednesday, so let's make allowances. Maybe I should have included a wink smiley? My last last but one post was half-ironic. I'm fully convinced that EVs are the future - I won't be buying one just yet, because of the cost and the the rural logistics around these parts. But yes, my next car will be electric, no doubt about that.

Are EVs harder on roads? I didn't think there was much doubt about that, but https://www.highwaysmagazine.co.uk/Conc ... -EVs/12354 is one of the less lopsided accounts of the problem. A more sober account from https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/portalfile ... s_Copy.pdf.

I don't see much mileage in mixing vehicle categories when it comes to assessing the road damage risk. Introducing trucks into the equation when we're talking about passenger cars or SUVs doesn't seem very helpful. Like-for-like, EVs are heavier and have faster acceleration, and they chew up the road surface faster. Can we stay with that?

BJ

[Arborbridge]

1) insane complexity of charging, needing multiple accounts/cards with the different networks
2) High price of many charge points
3) High and rising price of insurance
4) High depreciation of car
5) Unknown battery life
6) Unknown future electricity costs
7) for Teslas, everyone will think you are an Alt-Right Elon Musk fanboy
8) for Teslas, depreciation is being baked in because every new model is significantly cheaper than the older models.

Everyone's picture will be different:-

1) agreed, but it will rationalise over time. Actually, I only carry two cards plus my bank card, and that gets me around just fine.
2) again, agreedm though competition ought to eventually work in favour. VAT should be the same as fossil fuel, but isn't, so the government could alter that at a stroke. Charging cost at public chargers is working out about the same as my diesel per mile - earlier in the year cheaper, but now no so. In any case, most of my charging is done at home.
3) cost of my insurance I've already given, but the future is unknown. Don't believe all the Daily Mail stories, though.
4) Figures? Have you any links to show this is so? I think it might be too early to be really sure and the past three years have been really weird for all drivers. I think my jury is out on this one.
5) Not "unkown" but guaranteed for 8 years not to fall below 70%. I would also point to the thousands of EVs which have been on the road for the past 15 years or so. So one could hardly say "unknown" - I think the worst you could say was that the latest batteries have an uncertain useful life beyond 8 years but likely to be longer than that, otherwise they couldn't be guaranteed.
6) Unknown fossil fuels costs too! I suspect we will see much yo-yoing back and forth and it's all dependent on government policy as well as the market.
7) and 8) I haven't any input or knowledge, but of course Teslas are not the only EVs - the choice is becoming much wider.

As ever, the first movers in any technology are taking risks - these people are usually the better off or the enthusiastic. The rest of us may or may not follow the path they have beaten. For myself, I have very much kept an open mind. I think the case for buying an EV at the moment is not proven but the outlook will gradually improve with peak EV being in about 15 or 20 years before some other technology comes along

And having said the case is not proven, why did I buy one? I'm not young - this car could be my last or penultimate car, and I just felt like trying one. So I did and so far I am enjoying. Which is an interesting point: anecdotally, although some people say they are returning to ICE cars, many say there's no way they would swap back because EVs are such a joy to drive. There are trade-offs but beenefits too. I think it's all a question of the type of driving one needs to do. As a sceptic myself, I've been amazed by the journeys which EV drivers do make without any fear or worries, so some of this is just a matter of taking the plunge and getting to know the system.

Arb.

[Arborbridge]

From your comments, it looks like your a baked in anti or sceptic. But apart from that, why pick on EVs? I've no idea where this two and half times comes from or what it is compared with, though it seems to me that other vehicles on the road are just as damaging as is the vast increase in white vans buzzing along country lanes not designed for them. We also have very heavy lorries moving around for which the roads were not originally built, in ever increasing numbers. So, see beyond your bias and be a little fairer in seeing that many other vehicles are to blame.

That's not quite fair, but hey, it's a cold Wednesday, so let's make allowances. Maybe I should have included a wink smiley? My last post was half-ironic. I'm fully convinced that EVs are the future - I won't be buying one just yet, because of the cost and the the rural logistics around these parts. But yes, my next car will be electric, no doubt about that.

Are EVs harder on roads? I didn't think there was much doubt about that, but https://www.highwaysmagazine.co.uk/Conc ... -EVs/12354 is one of the less lopsided accounts of the problem. A more sober account from https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/portalfile ... s_Copy.pdf.

I don't see much mileage in mixing vehicle categories when it comes to assessing the road damage risk. Introducing trucks into the equation when we're talking about passenger cars or SUVs doesn't seem very helpful. Like-for-like, EVs are heavier and have faster acceleration, and they chew up the road surface faster. Can we stay with that?

BJ

Maybe I was harsh? I'm not convinced by your last paragraph. Why aim solely at EVs when they aren't particularly to blame? Should they be the first target? It's like the media are convinced that EVs result in multi story car parks collapsing but forget to mention that SUVs are just as heavy in many cases. It all just becomes like a tiresome lobby organised by antis from various sides - and I'm not entirely sure why. Why the constant carping from these people when anyone with half a brain would be sceptical, but just assess the situation for themselves.

To read the papers one would think EVs are solely responsible for unstoppable fires, collapsing buildings, the increase in potholes and cost £4000 pa to insure and 85p a kWh to charge and only for the mega rich. Not all of which is true - but hey, a good story is always more important than the facts. It's a case of some truth, but not the whole truth.

As ever, I'm just interested in some balance.

Arb.

[forgotusername]

Urbandreamer asked
"Out of interest, how often do you charge at home and how often have you felt a need to fill the tank?
Real world examples are a far better source than what someone read in a newspaper."

Our BMW i3 is a lovely car to drive. It's quiet, comfortable, very rapid when needed, plenty of luggage room and so far very reliable. Frequency of charging at home depends on usage and external temperature so there's no constant number. A full charge in summer provides an electric range of about 125 miles. In winter it's 95 ish. Remember this is a REX model with a petrol generator which charges the battery with 70-80 extra miles. It's not brilliant but honestly, for our use which is mostly local journeys it's fine. The car has done about 5500 miles a year since purchase in 2019. If you assume an average range per charge of 100 miles, that's 55 charges per year. That's not the whole story though as we don't wait until we have zero range before charging so we charge a couple of times a week just to top up when it's convenient (e.g. not chucking it down with rain). We rarely need to use the petrol generator which kicks in automatically when range drops to a few miles.

I've not yet used a public charger because, on the whole I haven't needed to and I have a second ICE car which suits long journeys better. It's a BMW V8 M3 so uses a lot of fuel but only does about 1500 miles a year, if that. Cost per mile is roughly 9p for the EV and 30p for the M3.

We used the i3 for a family holiday last summer. The journey was just about 180 miles so at the limit of our combined range. I took a couple of cans of fuel just in case. The petrol tank is quite small. Sure enough the generator kicked in as we neared our destination. We had a charging point at the holiday home so were able to use the car for trips and to recharge for the journey home.

My M3 is a beautiful piece of machinery, with an electric folding roof and it's exhilarating to drive. My wife doesn't drive it, it's too much of a handful and I no longer believe I am young enough to use it to the full, especially with the growth of speed cameras and lowered limits. I plan to buy another EV later this year but want one with a longer range. The Kia EV6 is a front runner at the moment. This will entail occasional use of public chargers so I have misgivings about their availability where I need them. I check zap map periodically to see where new locations are added that I might use.