Drakeford expresses suprise at 20 limit reaction

[Nimrod103]

talking of student days... I used to drive from Norf Kent to Aberystwyth to and from university via the A44. I've just looked on "datamapwales" to pick out the 20 mph zones between Aber and Old Radnor on the English border along the A44. It seems once you've left the immediate environs of Aber, there are four such zones - at the junction of the A4159 (0.1mile), Ponterwyd (0.6 miles), on the edge of Rhayader (0.1 mile), and in the vicinity of the crossroads with the A483 at Y-Groes/Crossgates (0.6 miles)

Total 20mph zone 1.4 miles. At 30mph (assuming a constant 30 could be made of course) that would have taken 2.8 minutes. At 20mph (assuming a constant 20 could be made of course) that would have taken 4.2 minutes. A whole extra one minute twenty-four seconds on a 270 mile journey from Kent to Aber that used to take about 7 hours (just pre M25 days though there were sections open).

less than 90 seconds.

Of course others' student days may not have taken them along the A44, but far more convoluted journeys

Am I reading the datamap wrongly? I can only see, marked in red, zones where the 20mph zones have now been raised back up to 30.

[didds]

Am I reading the datamap wrongly? I can only see, marked in red, zones where the 20mph zones have now been raised back up to 30.

in which case I will have read it worngly. I assumed the red zones were 20.

Cos if not that is 60 miles of 20mph from Aber to the English border. And I dont buy that.

[DrFfybes]

but for me it was the uncertainty of what the limit was.

Am I reading the datamap wrongly? I can only see, marked in red, zones where the 20mph zones have now been raised back up to 30.

in which case I will have read it worngly. I assumed the red zones were 20.

I rest my case

There's an extremely long standing convention that in a built up area with street lights, the speed limit is 30 mph without the need for speed limit repeaters on poles or lamp posts.

It's not a convention, it is the Law. Repeaters were actually not permitted in 30 limits, which led to problems as they were extended.

However thanks to Devolution the Welsh could change that law within their borders, so did.

Paul.

[tjh290633]

but for me it was the uncertainty of what the limit was.

in which case I will have read it worngly. I assumed the red zones were 20.

I rest my case

There's an extremely long standing convention that in a built up area with street lights, the speed limit is 30 mph without the need for speed limit repeaters on poles or lamp posts.

It's not a convention, it is the Law. Repeaters were actually not permitted in 30 limits, which led to problems as they were extended.

However thanks to Devolution the Welsh could change that law within their borders, so did.

Paul.

Do not forget that a 30mph limit on unlit roads has to be marked by 30 repeater signs at intervals.

TJH

[dionaeamuscipula]

To answer a few points:

It was chaos at the beginning because the changeover was poorly planned and signage was frequently unclear. Now, certainly everywhere I have been which is exclusively in the south and valleys, pretty much everything is OK. Compliance is reasonable rather than whole hearted, I would say, but that would be the case in a 30 mph limit. Average speeds are down by about 4 mph.

Who gave him the right to force people to change the way they live their lives?

This is precisely what politicians are there to do. One of Drakeford’s advantages is that on the whole he doesn’t need to worry about getting re-elected – he’s standing down next week in any case – so he can take decisions that are the right thing to do but that he knows might be unpopular. I wasn’t surprised it was unpopular to begin with but I’ve been surprised at quite how unpopular it remains. I guess motor vehicles “rights” have an elevated position in people’s psyche. The numpties going around with spray paint on the sign posts were quite happy to spray 20 mph signs at schools that had been there for years and years.

I would be interested to see the effects of the Welsh 20mph limits on tourism.

It might have an effect because of people’s ignorance of the practical effect, but the reality is that most roads outside towns are unaffected. If you are sightseeing by car then going a little slower will make it much nicer.

If there's no sign saying "20" it ain't 20. Obviously.

This is not correct. 20 is the national speed limit in Wales so it’s 20 unless it says it isn’t. There are no “20” signs in 20 mph areas, well there are a few vestigial ones around but not many.

A more sensible implementation would have been to exempt A and B roads from the blanket 20 mph limit unless there was a compelling reason.

That’s exactly what they *did* do. On my regular journey from North Cardiff to West Swansea which is about 45 miles, I would estimate that about 3 miles of it is at 20 mph.

So that rather than put up 20 mph repeater signs as would have to be done by an English council, he simply deemed 30 mph to be 20 mph in built up areas with lamp posts.

Yes, that is exactly what they did.

[DrFfybes]

To answer a few points:

It was chaos at the beginning because the changeover was poorly planned and signage was frequently unclear.

So that rather than put up 20 mph repeater signs as would have to be done by an English council, he simply deemed 30 mph to be 20 mph in built up areas with lamp posts.

Yes, that is exactly what they did.

Does this mean they now have repeaters in 30 limits, like 40 and 50?
ISTR my SiL getting a ticking off for doing 30 in a new 20, and her response was "well if it is still a 20 then why did the remove the 20 signs?".

As you say, poorly executed and explained, which IMO caused/causes more outrage than the actual act would had it been better implemented.

Paul

[Alaric]

This is not correct. 20 is the national speed limit in Wales so it’s 20 unless it says it isn’t. There are no “20” signs in 20 mph areas, well there are a few vestigial ones around but not many.

In a UK wide context that's just stupid, particularly in border areas. It's not as if you have to go through a passport control or identity check to enter Wales. Or is that Welsh Labour's next bright idea?

[bungeejumper]

Does this mean they now have repeaters in 30 limits, like 40 and 50?
ISTR my SiL getting a ticking off for doing 30 in a new 20, and her response was "well if it is still a 20 then why did the remove the 20 signs?".

As you say, poorly executed and explained, which IMO caused/causes more outrage than the actual act would had it been better implemented.

France changed most of its national speed limits about eight(?) years ago, and motorists were just told to learn that 60 kph on a sign now meant 50 kph, and that they'd be stopped and beaten up fined by the flics if they didn't change their habits. As I recall, foreigners got a few months of extra leeway - presumably so that the new limits could be implemented on their satnavs. (Which anybody with any sense uses in France, because they tell you not just where the speed traps are, but also where the most people get killed in accidents. )

The worst tailgating I can ever recall was in Manchester, just after they switched some quite large sections of arterial roads from 30 to 20. (And changed the signs.) I slowed down obediently as soon as my satnav started dinging at me, but nobody had told the locals who still regarded 45 as an acceptable speed for a 30 limit. I was really quite glad to get out of there.

BJ

[dionaeamuscipula]

This is not correct. 20 is the national speed limit in Wales so it’s 20 unless it says it isn’t. There are no “20” signs in 20 mph areas, well there are a few vestigial ones around but not many.

In a UK wide context that's just stupid, particularly in border areas. It's not as if you have to go through a passport control or identity check to enter Wales. Or is that Welsh Labour's next bright idea?

There are plenty in Wales who want a hard border (not that most will admit that's a conclusion from their policies), but not Labour.

I've not driven around there but I imagine most border roads aren't caught by the national speed limit.

DM