Are new cars abdicating us of responsibility for driving?

[Satsuma]

My OH has got a temporary new car before his even more all-singing all-dancing one turns up.

This one has: automatic lights; automatic wipers, some kind of automatic handbrake; automatic parking sensors front and back; auto adjusting rear view mirror; automatic locking when you drive off, cruise control; traffic assist and so on and so on.

It is a very nice car, but I can't help feeling that all this automation is moving drivers further and further away from actually, y'know, "driving" - or more accurately, being aware of driving. Pretty much all he has to do is steer it now - and in his new car, that will have lane assist so if he drifts, a loud alarm will warn him!

My journey this morning was gloomy and wet, so I turned my lights on and concentrated that bit harder on the road. I lost count of the new cars which emerged from the murk ahead with no rear lights on, but on passing, had their fronts on (daytime running lights I assume) - so I am assuming they are glibly driving along assuming their car has lit itself up properly when it is far from the case (and they haven't bothered to check themselves).

It worries me that when OH uses my car, he's going to expect it to do all the work for him...and it won't. The abdicating of responsibility seems OTT now.

Am I just a dinosaur or does this concern others too?
Sats

[StepOne]

Am I just a dinosaur or does this concern others too?

The former

I'm sure people thought much the same when things like automatic gearboxes, servo brakes and power steering came out. Probably also when indicators replaced hand signals!

Anyway in another couple of decades the cars will all be self-driving and we can scrap the driving test.

StepOne

[Satsuma]

Am I just a dinosaur or does this concern others too?

The former

I'm sure people thought much the same when things like automatic gearboxes, servo brakes and power steering came out. Probably also when indicators replaced hand signals!

Anyway in another couple of decades the cars will all be self-driving and we can scrap the driving test.

StepOne

Fair enough (RAWR!!!! )


...but all those things improved existing components, they didn't replace the need to do it entirely - like turning on both front and rear lights when it gets dark; and taking responsibility for not driving overtired instead of relying on your lane assist alarm to wake you up before you smash into the central reservation.

It's a bit of a half-and-half bodge job at present - self-driving cars will probably be safer than any human!

[richlist]

Self driving cars........oh dear:

1. I think there is going to be a long period where self driving cars will be rejected until the public's confidence reaches an appropriate level of acceptability.

2. Not only do I not want to travel in a self driving car......I don't want them on the same road as me and my family.

3. There are some of us that actually enjoy driving and are horrified at having these things imposed on us. We want to continue to drive ourselves.

4. I'm increasingly annoyed at manufacturers imposing unwanted features such as stop /start on me. Nobody asked me if I wanted it.....
I just get anyway.

[Meatyfool]

It's a bit of a half-and-half bodge job at present - self-driving cars will probably be safer than any human!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_car

Level 3 autonomy - car will both steer and accelerate/decelerate but not capable of being 100% perfect so driver has to remain vigilant at all times JUST IN CASE. Now that is a half and half bodge. That is where Tesla are at present I think (?)

And no "probably" about it, 80% of accidents are supposedly driver error - fully autonomous cars can't come soon enough for me!

Meatyfool.

[argoal]

2. Not only do I not want to travel in a self driving car......I don't want them on the same road as me and my family.

Interestingly, those of us in self drive cars won't want you and your family on the same road as us.

You will be taking up far too much road space and slowing down the flow of traffic with your ridiculously primative reaction times and erratic driving style.

I suspect you will be in a small minority of road users that are hived off to the less used routes and toll roads.

[Satsuma]

Level 3 autonomy - car will both steer and accelerate/decelerate but not capable of being 100% perfect so driver has to remain vigilant at all times JUST IN CASE. Now that is a half and half bodge. That is where Tesla are at present I think (?)

And no "probably" about it, 80% of accidents are supposedly driver error - fully autonomous cars can't come soon enough for me!

Meatyfool.

Serious q - do we think we'll see fully autonomous cars in our lifetimes (I'm 40-something now - as the basis for "lifetime") - either as test vehicles or available on the open road?

[Slarti]

My journey this morning was gloomy and wet, so I turned my lights on and concentrated that bit harder on the road. I lost count of the new cars which emerged from the murk ahead with no rear lights on, but on passing, had their fronts on (daytime running lights I assume) - so I am assuming they are glibly driving along assuming their car has lit itself up properly when it is far from the case (and they haven't bothered to check themselves).

There have always been idiots who don't put their lights on in daytime bad weather conditions because "they don't help me to see, so why should I"

I do think that cruise control is one of the best inventions for assisting with driving, but I haven't like hire cars with automatic lights or wipers, when I've had them as, to me, they don't turn on soon enough.

Slarti

[argoal]

Serious q - do we think we'll see fully autonomous cars in our lifetimes (I'm 40-something now - as the basis for "lifetime") - either as test vehicles or available on the open road?

This is the expert view (obviously selected experts used):

US Secretary of Transportation stated at the 2015 Frankfurt Auto show that he expects driverless cars to be in use all over the world within the next 10 years.
(Source: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, 2015-09-19)

Uber CEO, Travis Kalanick, has indicated in a tweet that he expects Uber’s fleet to be driverless by 2030.
(Source: Mobility Lab, 2015-08-18)

Expert members of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) have determined that driverless vehicles will be the most viable form of intelligent transportation. They estimate that up to 75% of all vehicles will be autonomous by 2040.
(Source: IEEE, 2012-09-05)

Pretty much all of the major car companies say that they have plans produce Level-4 cars by 2020 or soon afterwards.

I think it will happen in a very significant way in the next 10 years. Possibly first in high tech cities such as Singapore or China where driverless cars quickly become the norm rather than an exception. The advantages for the early adoptor cities in terms of journey speed, lower fuel use, pollution, accident rates etc will make it easy to adopt more widely.

[Meatyfool]

On the navitron forum, someone posted a link to a prof who specialises in "business model disruption" - where a technology has the ability to turn the existing model on its head, the technology take up curve is always underestimated by technology experts - it always happens quicker.

Now go back and look at the previous posters list of estimates and apply the above knowledge!

Meatyfool..

[Meatyfool]

Having said that, the real stumbling block will be the politics.

Will the legal frameworks be in place? Will the political will to let 10,000s of jobs in the delivery chain/automotive chain go? Etc etc!

Meatyfool..

[argoal]

Having said that, the real stumbling block will be the politics.

Totally agree that the main barriers will be political. Political and social barriers will be lower in the newest developed societies, hence my comments on Singapore and China being early adoptors.

The US sticks out as a place where some of the highest political barriers exist. Trucking and car making are heavily unionised industries in the US, although not are much so as in previous years, and are likely to resist adoption.

I think that the boost to all parts of the economy that more flexible transportation brings will outweighs the cost of job losses overall. Maybe not great for those caught up in the change but nevertheless inevitable.

[Lootman]

Level 3 autonomy - car will both steer and accelerate/decelerate but not capable of being 100% perfect so driver has to remain vigilant at all times JUST IN CASE. Now that is a half and half bodge. That is where Tesla are at present I think (?)

My neighbour has a Tesla. It drives itself out of his garage, which is probably a good thing as the garage is only slightly wider than his car. It's rather disconcerting seeing the car moving with nobody in it. Once it is out of the garage, he closes the garage door and finally gets into the car.

I feel sure it is 100% safe but I am wary anyway.

[StepOne]

4. I'm increasingly annoyed at manufacturers imposing unwanted features such as stop /start on me. Nobody asked me if I wanted it.....I just get anyway.

Autostop can be turned off normally.

I do agree with you in some ways, though. e.g. my 16 year old Astra has a stereo which has 2 knobs on - one for Balance (left/right) and one for Fader (front/rear). Easily twiddled with while driving.

But in my wife's year-old Kia, you need to press the Menu button (or is it 'Settings' - there are 2 buttons and I often try the wrong one). Then turn the 'selector' knob to move the highlighted option down to Audio settings (you need to look at the radio when doing this or you can't tell which option is highlighted!), then click the selector button, then turn the selector knob AGAIN to move down 5 or 6 options to get to the Fader option (once again you HAVE to look at the radio to do this - you cannot tell otherwise whether the correct option is highlighted), then press the select button, then turn the selector knob AGAIN to change the Fader, then press the selector button when you are happy with the change. Then press Menu (or is it Settings) twice to get back to the normal display.

It's annoying because I frequently change this when the kids are in the care so they can listen to music without deafening me, and then change it back when I want to listen to the football, or Eddie Mair. I find it incredbible that they came up with such a clunky method of doing something that used to be so simple - not to mention dangerous as you have to take your eyes off the road to do it!

Rant over, thanks for listening!
StepOne

PS. I'm guessing this is the point where someone tells me that there are a couple of buttons on the steering wheel that perform this function .... but don't get me started on steering wheels with so many buttons that they wouldn't look out of place in a formula 1 car!!

[richlist]

Yes the auto stop/start can be turned off just like the radio. But at least the radio doesn't switch itself on every time you start the car.

[Redmires]

Go on then Sats, which car did he order in the end (remembering your question on here in April) ?

I was watching a programme last night on the TV (Secrets of Silicon Valley) which featured a self driving truck. It got me wondering how self drive vehicles would handle adverse weather conditions. A few inches of snow can obliterate all the lane and junction markings and although GPS will still be available, other sensing equipment will be of no use. Perhaps that's when the humans take over. It will be a brave decision for whichever city/country goes for it first.

[Maroochydore]

I do think that cruise control is one of the best inventions for assisting with driving, ...Slarti

The only time I seem to be able to use cruise control in UK is around 03:00 if I'm out and about at that time (and there's still quite a bit of traffic on the M25 at that time). Any other time it seems too much braking and accelerating going on due to traffic density and bad lane discipline. May as well just use the foot-pedals.

Great when in France or Germany, not so much in Italy and OK on Interstates in the US.

So useful invention but impractical in UK.

[Satsuma]

Go on then Sats, which car did he order in the end (remembering your question on here in April) ?

After all my fuss about the Auris, he is planning to get an.... Auris Touring Sport Excel 1.8 Hybrid

We took an estate version for a test drive and it just felt better than the hatchback that I so hated. I have no idea why!
The model we drove was a bit lower spec than this, but it was fine. We had a good fiddle of all the knobs and buttons and switches, tested out the sensors and reversing camera, both of us drove it on a mixture of road types and speeds etc

And because his employer are so big on green initiatives, they are practically paying him to get this model! Seriously, the total monthly cost for him is laughably small (after all the BIK/P11D numbers etc are calculated). That's fuel, servicing, insurance (for me too) etc - all of it.

He is ordering it sometime soon I think, meantime we are being boy racers in his temporary Golf Tdi!

Sats

[Wuffle]

The weather thing mentioned earlier is huge.
I usually work in the logistics industry as a transport manager.
If the weather turns and the humans aren't there anymore, and they won't be if automation has eliminated a need for the rest of the year, everything will stop. I mean everything.
Unless you have been in a transport office when it snows you probably can't grasp the way tight margins descend into carnage at the slightest change in conditions. And that is with fully functioning, multitasking people to hand.
If they aren't there - and they won't hang around if the jobs dwindle - you won't be having dinner that evening.
You can get a bit more sophisticated in your argument and consider whether automation can cover for certain legal limitations on driving time but the fundamental argument still stands. The qualified people won't be there in the quantities needed when you need them and everything will stop. Everything.

[Slarti]

I was watching a programme last night on the TV (Secrets of Silicon Valley) which featured a self driving truck. It got me wondering how self drive vehicles would handle adverse weather conditions. A few inches of snow can obliterate all the lane and junction markings and although GPS will still be available, other sensing equipment will be of no use

And, as I discovered in Portugal last year, the GPS information may not be up to date. Three roundabouts were missing on an 8 mile stretch of the N25 west of Lagos.

Wonder how they'll allow for that with autonomous vehicles.

Slarti