I hate driving when there's ice!

[Slarti]

I had to drive to Chelmsford and back this morning and so went out to the car 15 minutes before I needed to start off and ran the engine to warm it while scraping the ice off.

Set off with a clear, warm car at about 09:25, driving very carefully as the thermostat said -1C and the roads neither looked nor felt treated.

Got through Langford and over the river bridge, doing a slightly reckless 30mph when a Range Rover started trying to push into going faster.
I ignored him and as soon as there was no oncoming traffic visible, he pulled out and passed me.
Luckily there is the old entrance to the waterworks on the left there that I was able to drift into, as he did a less than graceful pirouette.

There are so many morons on the roads!

Slarti

[redsturgeon]

Me too, I've been caught out a few times in my younger days on icy roads, once ending up in a ditch on a ungritted country road due to black ice and many other times catching four wheel drifts on roundabouts and having to pray, coming up to T junctions with all wheels locked at 10 mph slowly sliding toward the main road. All that of course was before the days of ABS and temperature gauges in cars although perhaps the tyres back then were better able to cope than some of todays extreme low profile things.

Since moving down to the far south of the country and having fewer early morning starts I can't remember the last time I drove on a icy ungritted road.
Perhaps that's the danger though now it would probably come as a complete surprise.

Has anyone here gone the route of winter tyres, if I lived further north I would definitely consider them but the combination of changing my car every two or three years and the usually clement weather down here makes it less than a straightforward call.

John

[bungeejumper]

and having to pray, coming up to T junctions with all wheels locked at 10 mph slowly sliding toward the main road.

An annual peril in our village, where the feeder road from our end descends toward the main road at a slope of maybe one in twelve. But no longer! At long last, after only 15 years of complaining, the water board have finally condescended to fix a rainwater drain that was creating an ice-slide every single damn time that the temperature dropped. Over the years, hundreds of cars have slid out into the path of whatever happens to be coming along the main road. Not good, since the intersection was/is on the school run.

Long ago, I dropped a couple of motorbikes on black ice during my two-wheeler days, and it helped me to develop a sixth sense. But it wasn't always enough. I still recall the time when I was driving my old Ford Escort down the sloping main street of one of our larger local villages, and gradually became aware that I was no longer doing 15 mph, even though that was what my speedo said. Then the car started a slow-motion spin, and in a couple of seconds I was sideways on and watching the shop fronts pass across the front of my windscreen in slo-mo. I had zero control over what would happen next.

Having had my morning caffeine fix, however, a long-forgotten bit of advice dislodged itself from my brain cells and hit my synapses. I hauled on the handbrake, which locked the back wheels and immediately brought the car back into line. At the bottom of the hill I pulled in and spent a couple of minutes shaking with relief.

BJ

[redsturgeon]

Having had my morning caffeine fix, however, a long-forgotten bit of advice dislodged itself from my brain cells and hit my synapses. I hauled on the handbrake, which locked the back wheels and immediately brought the car back into line. At the bottom of the hill I pulled in and spent a couple of minutes shaking with relief.

BJ

Nice one, never tried that myself. Have always managed to keep straight with a combination of steering and cadence braking (pre ABS) but I can see how the handbrake trick would work.

Not sure how good I would be these days though, I think a trip to a skid pan with my son and daughter might be wise.

John

[tjh290633]

This takes me back to 1958, when I was running a construction site in Wincobank, Sheffield. I had a VW Beetle at the time and was heading for Firth Park down a steep hill in the snow. There was a bus coming up and I realised that I was starting to slide. A quick decision led me to spin the car and come to rest, before the bus arrived.

Another incident occurred when I was heading along the valley bottom towards Wincobank. There had been 4 inches of snow and this was fairly early on Sunday morning, before the snowploughs had been out. There were four wheel ruts and I pulled out to overtake a very slow vehicle. When I tried to pull back, I had one wheel in the nearside rut, two diagonally opposed wheels in the next rut and one rear wheel in the third rut. I was unable to turn into the two desired ruts, so was proceeding crab wise along the road. Again decided to pirouette and the milk float trundled on past, with a look of disgust on Ernie's face.

TJH

[bungeejumper]

A little bit of patience, common sense and know how is all that's needed. And leaving the house with the correct gear in the boot in case you get stuck (those canvas bags for life are quite handy)

Yep, including hi-viz and multiple pairs of thick socks and space blankets and bags of nuts, and all that stuff. The wife thinks I'm overdoing it on the Baden Powell ("be prepared") side .

But then, I was once the last person who made it up a hill before the snow closed it six feet deep for ten days. (I never did find out what happened to the huge Volvo that overtook me and then spun off - I was concentrating too hard on keeping up my momentum in my brand new Austin Metro.)

Speaking of which, I know I should be careful what I wish for, but has anybody here ever had to turn the traction control off (aka "disable EPS") to get out of a snow situation? And did it work?

BJ

[Howard]

Has anyone here gone the route of winter tyres, if I lived further north I would definitely consider them

Like you, John, we have a BMW 330E and I have bought snow socks which are necessary to get up our hill in icy conditions. However, with low profile tyres this car is pretty useless on ice.

Some time ago, when visiting Switzerland, I rented a similar BMW with snow tyres. With some trepidation, I set off up the very steep hill from the hotel for the return to the airport. It was ungritted and the ice looked black. I have had a fair amount of experience driving UK cars with snow chains in Switzerland where the two unchained tyres behave totally differently from the driven, chained ones. So I drove very carefully but the car behaved as if it were on normal tarmac. The difference was amazing and the car was sure-footed all the (icy) way back to the airport.

But, living not far from you in the South, I think we'd only get a few days benefit per year, so it's not worth the cost and the hassle of storage, although I know Micheldever Tyres will store the tyres for you - at a cost.

regards

Howard

[Slarti]

Me too, I've been caught out a few times in my younger days on icy roads, once ending up in a ditch on a ungritted country road due to black ice and many other times catching four wheel drifts on roundabouts and having to pray, coming up to T junctions with all wheels locked at 10 mph slowly sliding toward the main road.

Being caught out is one thing but ignoring the conditions and being stupid is another and the bloke this morning was being stupid.

I have been caught out, more than once.

First time, I was only 17 and driving my 1954 vintage Ford Popular. I drove off my parents drive and realised that the car wasn't turning, despite the steering wheel being turned to full lock, but I was going down the hill that I was turning away from, sideways, totally out of control. Luckily nobody was on the road that I drifted into.

2nd was driving my Hillman Imp and I didn't realise that it wasn't wet on the railway bridge that I was about to cross but black ice. Full 360 degrees in the width of the bridge, on my own side of the road. My friends thought that it was skill, it wasn't.

Slarti

[redsturgeon]

Like you, John, we have a BMW 330E and I have bought snow socks which are necessary to get up our hill in icy conditions. However, with low profile tyres this car is pretty useless on ice.

Howard

I actually have the 225xe which does have the benefit of 4 wheel drive and I specced it with the highest profile tyres I could...my boy racer days are behind me .

I wonder if all season tyres are perhaps the best compromise.

John

[staffordian]

2nd was driving my Hillman Imp and I didn't realise that it wasn't wet on the railway bridge that I was about to cross but black ice. Full 360 degrees in the width of the bridge, on my own side of the road. My friends thought that it was skill, it wasn't.

Slarti

My first car was an Imp, and the combination of rear engine and rear wheel drive made it quite sure footed in snow.

And although it had a repuation for being a bit tail happy (like a Porsche?!?) I always found it quite civilised.

[swill453]

My first car was an Imp, and the combination of rear engine and rear wheel drive made it quite sure footed in snow.

And although it had a repuation for being a bit tail happy (like a Porsche?!?) I always found it quite civilised.

My brother had a Sunbeam Stiletto (Imp coupé) and turned it on its roof on an icy day. Fortunately it was light enough he could push it back over himself and drive home.

Scott.

[staffordian]

My first car was an Imp, and the combination of rear engine and rear wheel drive made it quite sure footed in snow.

And although it had a repuation for being a bit tail happy (like a Porsche?!?) I always found it quite civilised.

My brother had a Sunbeam Stiletto (Imp coupé) and turned it on its roof on an icy day. Fortunately it was light enough he could push it back over himself and drive home.

Scott.

That reminds me...

Around the same time I had my Imp, the early/mid 1970s, a mate of mine had a BMW.

At least that was what the ignition key had on it. It was actually one of their cousins, an Isetta three wheel bubble car. Apparently they were designed with the engine on the right hand side, at the back, so when they were driven one up, the driver, on the left, helped balance it.

Can you see the flaw when the imported ones were converted to right hand drive?

Rumour had it that in true BMW engineering tradition, the solution was to put a lump of concrete between the inner and outer body panels on the left hand side as a counter weight, but this was not entirely sucessful.

My mate, who was quite well built, was at Bristol uni and apparently, somewhere up there is a downhill piece of road with a sharpish left hand bend with poor camber.

On more than one occasion he rolled it whilst negotiating the bend and he too simply opened the (front) door, put it back the right way up, and carried on. The only real damage being a bent wing mirror and some wounded pride...

[ten0rman]

I've fitted a pair of those new Michelin Cross Climate + tyres on the front after a pair of Energy Saver +. On the rear I've still got Energy Saver+ which seem to be doing rather better than the previous Bridgestones.

So far, we've only had one day when the roads have been icy. The road off our estate is down hill and I did try gentle braking, and yes something lost its grip and I did slide in a straight line which I think is unusual, normally I'd expect to gradually go sideways either at the front or rear, or both. One other thing, I've only once experienced ABS control coming in and that was on a Focus where it sounded like a machine gun going off. On the present car, Toyota Avensis, I didn't hear anything. So, did it work? Or was it all 4 wheels sliding?

Really, I don't know if the Cross Climates are any good or not. I must point out that I've never had winter tyres in 55+ years of driving, and really can't see the need. I have had Town & Country's fitted and I do think they worked somewhat. So I actually agree with Snorvey. So why have I had cross-climates fitted? I suppose I've fallen for the hype and thought I'd try them as the two energy saver's on the front were well worn. The alternative would have been to remain on Energy Saver+'s.

Re Traction control/EPS. I think that's what my car has fitted. Not sure what it does, or even if it's needed. I tend to drive through "feel" in slippery conditions in that usually I can detect when something not nice is happening, and then control it via the right foot.

A comment re yesteryear tyres being better. When I got my first set of wheels, on an A35 van, followed by a Morris Minor, I recall that the tyres were quite narrow compared to today's efforts. It seems to me that a narrower tyre is less likely to ride on top of the snow than todays tyres, possibly creating somewhat more grip, although I do admit that today's cars are considerably heavier so maybe not. But really, considering the winter's we used to get 50+ years ago, a slab of concrete or equivalent in the boot (rear wheel drive) and I could, and did, tackle all sorts of heavyish snow. I think I'd hesitate somewhat in the Avensis under the same conditions. To be fair though, the Focus diesel tackled something in 2nd gear on tickover quite happily much to my surprise.

ten0rman

[staffordian]

I wonder if fitting winter or Michelin Cross Climate tyres to just one axle is a good idea; I can imagine that in the precise circumstances that they are needed, the lack of them on the rear could very quickly result in the back of the car overtaking the front whilst braking or cornering.

I have contemplated the Michelins myself but really do so little driving these days that I can't justify it. Especially as being retired I can choose not to go out if the weather is particularly bad.

But if I did, I would swap existing front and rear to even the wear then change all four together.

As far as narrow tyres being better is concerned, there is probably some truth in it. Rally cars fit very narrow tyres in snowy conditions, usually referred to as bike tyres.

[Clitheroekid]

Has anyone here gone the route of winter tyres

I've gone one better - I've got a winter car! I've had Mercs for years and they're great cars, but with low profile summer tyres they are utterly hopeless in wintry conditions.

This has nothing to do with driving skill or techniques - that sort of tyre simply cannot gain traction on ice and snow. People who sniff at winter tyres and claim their car on summer tyres is just fine are almost certainly driving on relatively narrow / high profile tyres, which, though nowhere near as good as proper winter tyres are at least driveable.

Although we don’t actually get much snow and ice up here we did have a lot a few years ago, so I arranged to hire (at mate's rates) a little Fiat Punto from a client car dealer as it had winter tyres. I'd had experience of them driving in the Alps, and I knew what a massive difference they made.

It was unbelievably good on snowy and icy roads. Winter tyres give a far bigger advantage than 4WD, and I would take a 2WD car with winter tyres over a 4WD on summer tyres every time. I would regularly drive past idiots in X5's, Range Rovers and so on who were sat there unable to understand why their expensive summer tyre clad toy was spinning all 4 wheels.

But as my Merc was a two seater the Punto was also useful as a second car when I needed to cart stuff around, so I decided to keep it. Overall the cost of owning two cars isn't much higher than owning one, as the annual mileage is split between them, and reducing the mileage on the Merc means a better deal when I come to change it, plus the Punto was a lot more economical so there was a big fuel saving over the winter.

I recently swapped the Punto for a Panda 4x4 and it's a great little car. It's got the best of both worlds, as not only is it 4WD but it’s wearing Continental Winter Contact pure winter tyres (i.e. not M&S, the cheaper versions of which are often not much better than ordinary tyres). Unfortunately I was 200 miles away last weekend when we got some snow, so I missed my first opportunity to test it properly, but unlike everyone else I'm really looking forward to it snowing again, so I can go out and play!

has anybody here ever had to turn the traction control off (aka "disable EPS") to get out of a snow situation? And did it work?

Yes, before I got the Punto I was trying to get the Merc up a not terribly steep hill in the snow. Traction control in that situation is utterly hopeless, as it takes away the drive to the wheel that's slipping and when both wheels are slipping the net effect is zero traction. Turning it off did at least mean that the spinning wheel cut through the snow to a bit of tarmac and once I had even a little forward momentum I was just about able to keep it going.

I live quite far north and I've never seen the need to fit winter tyres.

It's quite true that most of us don't get enough really adverse weather that we need winter tyres. However, they're not just designed for use in snow and ice. The compound is softer, so they are better on all roads when the temperature is less than 8C.

I’m a total convert, and if I did have just one RWD car with low profile sports tyres I’d certainly change to a set of winter tyres. However, if your main car’s FWD and/or shod with ordinary tyres I would agree with the general consensus that it’s probably not worth it for the number of times you’d really notice the difference.

[bungeejumper]

My brother had a Sunbeam Stiletto (Imp coupé) and turned it on its roof on an icy day. Fortunately it was light enough he could push it back over himself and drive home.

Going O/T, but my neighbours' kid went one better than that. When the Imps first came out, he entered a competition in a car magazine and won the star prize, a rally version of the ground-breaking little car. So there he was in the magazine, wearing the biggest grin you ever saw on an 18 year old. It lasted one whole weekend before he rolled the car and totally destroyed it. And it wasn't even winter. Ah well, 15 minutes of fame, etc. Easy come, easy go.

BJ

[ten0rman]

Staffordian,

re one axle or two axles with Cross Climate tyres.
I've heard that before, about having them on all four wheels, and did indeed consult my local garage man - he doesn't sell tyres so it's no skin off his back. He didn't think it worthwhile, or rather, he thought one axle would be safe. Hence I went ahead.

There was another reason. The car was first fitted with Bridgestones and all 4 wore out more or less simultaneously. I was expecting the same with the replacement Michelin Energy Savers. But it didn't happen, hence I found myself in the position of having two worn front tyres and two not so worn tyres. Hence having to change them in pairs.

I'm also of the opinion that drivers should be aware of the conditions that they are driving in, and should take appropriate precautions. Now I know that sounds arrogant etc, but it's winter - what do we expect? 70 degree temperatures? Get real people, in winter one should expect low temperatures and bad weather. Whilst I'm on about it, I remember a conversation on the radio many years ago where the interviewee was asked about black ice. His reply: "Black ice is a name invented by drivers to explain the fact that they had not anticipated that ice was around, and thus got into trouble".

Last one from me.
I used to work in Bradford. I had a Maxi on standard tyres. I never had a problem with that car in snow or on ice. I could drive through, and did on occasion, up to 6 inches of snow. I could pass most vehicles, other than 4x4's, going uphill. Why? I believe it was something to do with weight distribution, the heavy enginew as actually slightly in front of the front axle, not a lot, but with the cantilever effect there was a tremendous amount of weight & hence grip. We did get it stuck one day - on top of hard packed snow/ice to such an extent that the front wheels were just about clear of the floor.

ten0rman

[bungeejumper]

I used to work in Bradford. I had a Maxi on standard tyres. I never had a problem with that car in snow or on ice. I could drive through, and did on occasion, up to 6 inches of snow. I could pass most vehicles, other than 4x4's, going uphill. Why? I believe it was something to do with weight distribution, the heavy enginew as actually slightly in front of the front axle, not a lot, but with the cantilever effect there was a tremendous amount of weight & hence grip. We did get it stuck one day - on top of hard packed snow/ice to such an extent that the front wheels were just about clear of the floor.

Everybody used to laugh at the Maxis, but in truth they were exceptionally good when it came to handling and control. Which must have been a fluke, because they weren't well made. (Although ISTR that some of them were quite quick?) So when Austin/Morris brought in the rear wheel drive Marina to replace it, the diehards stuck to their guns and the Maxi continued for much longer than expected.

Jeez, the Marina. I drove my mate home from a party in his car because he was drunk, and it happened to have been a mildly frosty night. My mistake. They didn't call them wounded whales for nothing. Especially on cross-plies.

BJ

[JMN2]

...coming up to T junctions with all wheels locked at 10 mph slowly sliding toward the main road....

Few years ago I was on my way to have the studded winter tyres fitted, no snow but very icy, I drove very slowly down a slight slope to a T junction when I lost all control of the car, slowly it slid towards T junction and over it into a ditch, in slow motion about walking pace. Luckily it was a very quiet road. I called the local farmer to pull the car out with his tractor, absolutely no damage done to the car.

Studs are very good on a snowless icy slippery road, but very expensive for the taxpayer as the motorways and roads need new tarmac every 3 years. Rubber winter tyres are good in snow but you need studs on black ice and snowless frost.

A 70's public service announcement - beware black ice!

https://youtu.be/c3HNqkesHqs

[Slarti]

2nd was driving my Hillman Imp and I didn't realise that it wasn't wet on the railway bridge that I was about to cross but black ice. Full 360 degrees in the width of the bridge, on my own side of the road. My friends thought that it was skill, it wasn't.

Slarti

My first car was an Imp, and the combination of rear engine and rear wheel drive made it quite sure footed in snow.

And although it had a repuation for being a bit tail happy (like a Porsche?!?) I always found it quite civilised.

Other than when a tyre blew coming off Gants Hill roundabout, I only had one other incident in the Imp (actually a Singer Chamois) which was similar the the other waltz. I was driving home from a party with a car full of friends and it had snowed while were in whoever's house it was. Therefore I thought that I was being very light of foot, but obviously not light enough as when I was on the flat side of a roundabout the car suddenly just waltzed, leaving me looking at a parked up police car. The expression on my face must have been good as they just laughed and waved me on.

As for traction control, while I was out on the frozen snow on Sunday 10th, a couple of times when I'd had to stop for traffic lights on starting off there was a knocking noise, a flashing picture of crazy wheels on the dash and the car pulled unexpectedly to one side or the other. From comments in the thread, next time I'm on snow I'll turn off the traction control.


A final snow story.
I was driving a Mini and had started a new job in Maldon in February 79 when we got one of our very rare heavy snowfalls on the Sunday evening.
The snow stayed all week which meant that on the Friday I had to go from Maldon to Leigh on Sea where I was picking up my newer car from one of the many 2nd hand dealers there. The obvious route was through Woodham Ferrers as there was only the one hill to negotiate that way. Unfortunately for me more snow fell and the roads had not been ploughed so there were quite deep tracks in the snow. So deep that I found myself tobogganing down the hill with the wheels not touching the ground enough to do anything. At the bottom of the hill is a left, right pair of bends and then you go up again. I was half way up the other side before the scraping noise stopped and I could feel anything happening to the wheels. I was glad to get shot of the Mini and be in my nice large Austin 1800.

Slarti