Electric car choices

[vrdiver]

I'm starting the long and protracted debate with myself about what to replace the current motor with.

I have no interest in cars, except as a tool to get from A to B. Mrs VRD or I use a car every day (we're both retired) and would expect to chalk up 12k m/annum in the replacement car. I'm intrigued by the electric car concept, but dubious that any sane Chancellor will allow fuel duty to wither without figuring out how to tax battery-driven vehicles.

I'd like a range of >300 miles on a single charge, as we can easily drive over 200 miles in a single day when heading to the coast and back (yes, we both scuba dive). The 2018 Nissan Leaf only offers 235 miles currently, but may get to 300+ miles range later in the year.

I like driving estates; I always seem to have "stuff" that needs moving that wouldn't be nearly as easy to shift in a saloon. I dislike poor value-for-money cars and don't care about badges or country of origin. Mrs VRD refuses to have a BMW, but otherwise the field is wide open. Electric estates seem to be rarer than unicorns (or offered only as ugly vans).

Is it worth waiting a year or so, or is there something out there that ticks the boxes?

[Meatyfool]

If looking to buy now, then I reckon only a Tesla is going to hit that range requirement. Remember you get less range in the winter.

And here is the Tesla estate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydb9TW3Bmh8

!

Meatyfool..

[nmdhqbc]

I'd say it's either a very pricey Tesla or wait a few years. I believe that even that 2018 Leaf quoted range of 200+ miles is not real world. I've heard closer to 150. If I was you I'd either wait a few years in your current car or go for a plug in hybrid. Depends on your usage but if for instance on an average day you do about 20 miles then twice a month a long trip. The vast majority of the time it could be electricity only then petrol for the longens. Of course you don't get the benefit of a fully electric cars lower maintenance costs and fewer things to go wrong. Could be a good stop gap though for a few years before solid state batteries get going hopefully.

[bungeejumper]

Gotta be hybrid, for the time being at least. Nothing else is going to give you complete reassurance that you won't have to leave your carful of gear in some lonesome lay-by while you go off scouting for a power supply. (Or a mobile phone signal to acquire same.)

Leasing might be a good way of buying time, and rates are currently quite attractive. They won't stay that way though, once inflation picks up and default rates start to rise. Just sayin'.

BJ

[vrdiver]

If looking to buy now, then I reckon only a Tesla is going to hit that range requirement. Remember you get less range in the winter.

And here is the Tesla estate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydb9TW3Bmh8

!

Meatyfool..

Witha £70,000 conversion fee on top of the cost of the car!

Think I'm going to wait for the "production model" to come out...

[Hardgrafter]

In the UK, I think the Hyundai Ioniq is only reasonable solution for you. It is basically a Ford Focus look alike (IMHO) and you can have Hybrid, Plug In Hybrid or Pure Electric.

If you had a charging point at your seaside destination pre electric might be way to go. But Hybrid or Plug In are only sensible solution if range is important. And for relative value for money the Hybrid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Ioniq
https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/ioni ... &gclsrc=ds

Enjoy your car searching.

[richlist]

Reading the reviews of the Hyundai Ionic......seems there are more negatives than positives.

[wheypat]

I'm a leaf driver and have covered about 50K in it.

The quoted 235 on the 2018 leaf is misleading. First, that's on a full battery and the recommendation is you don't charge beyond 80% on a regular basis. So take that 235 and reduce to 188. And you shouldn't discharge below 20% of capacity either, so make that 60% of 235 or 141.

As with MPG figures the 235 is for downhill with a following wind in 25 degrees. So personally I'd estimate that 141 to be more like 100 in real world use. As an example, my leaf was 24kwh (note the use of the word was) with a quoted range of 84 miles when new. It now manages (tops) about 65 (on paper) and real world 50 mile range. Batteries decay over time - Teslas are better than most!

But don't be put off - many places have destination charging, so you can arrive, park and change whilst away from the car. I've put my name down for a model 3 when they come out . . . .

Any questions - do get back to me.

[vrdiver]

I'm a leaf driver and have covered about 50K in it.

The quoted 235 on the 2018 leaf is misleading. First, that's on a full battery and the recommendation is you don't charge beyond 80% on a regular basis. So take that 235 and reduce to 188. And you shouldn't discharge below 20% of capacity either, so make that 60% of 235 or 141.

As with MPG figures the 235 is for downhill with a following wind in 25 degrees. So personally I'd estimate that 141 to be more like 100 in real world use. As an example, my leaf was 24kwh (note the use of the word was) with a quoted range of 84 miles when new. It now manages (tops) about 65 (on paper) and real world 50 mile range. Batteries decay over time - Teslas are better than most!

But don't be put off - many places have destination charging, so you can arrive, park and change whilst away from the car. I've put my name down for a model 3 when they come out . . . .

Any questions - do get back to me.

That's really useful - thank you.

With Shell getting into EV stations, I'm hoping the UK network will expand rapidly. Unfortunately, a lot of the places Mrs. VRD and I go to are 100 - 150 miles away and when we get there it's "the middle of nowhere" (or Nowhere-on-Sea) so it looks like a pure electric solution isn't going to be feasible for a few more years.

I dislike the concept of PHEV; it seems inefficient to carry two power sources and associated kit, but it looks like the longer journeys will have to carry the battery if I want to take advantage of all-battery trips when traveling locally. Of course, my understanding of the technology is zero, so if anybody can explain (in layman's terms) why PHEV is not a compromise, I'd be grateful.

The other alternative is to get an EV purely for local use and keep the diesel for long range. Looks like the search for VRD's next car is going rival Alan Sugar's last Apprentice decision!

[redsturgeon]

I have a PHEV and the concept works for the mix of journeys I do. For 90% of the time the car is used on short journeys around my home town, 3 miles to 12 miles at a time but perhaps 40 miles in a day. So I can use the car purely on electric power for those journeys while charging in between...it will charge fully in two hours and every time I come home even after a couple of mile journey then I plug it back in.

Then perhaps once a month the car will be used for a round trip of three or four hundred miles...something than would not be feasible in a pure electric car at the moment but easy enough with a PHEV though not as efficient for that trip as a diesel would be.

One thing I notice though is that the smoothness and instant take up of an electric car around town is brilliant. I am driving a BMW hire car at the moment, an 190bhp auto and it feels much rougher and no faster than my PHEV does on electric only which is only 88BHP (while the petrol engine adds another 136 BHP.)

John

[lbj20]

That range is beyond most electric cars - especially not at motorway speeds or in winter. Top end tesla maybe.

That's not to say that long journeys are impossible with electric cars. You just have to stop and charge. Many motorway services have extremely powerful DC charging stations which help here

You said not BMW, which rules out the i3 with Range extender. The range extender is a tiny petrol generator that charges the battery when you want it - so you can keep driving and not charge. (The drivetrain is fully electric so you still have the benefits of EV torque and low maintenance.) This is my car - our household's only car - chosen not just to enable longer trips, but also because chargers sometimes have someone else using them (and long term this will continue or get worse - more cars, stretched infrastructure). The dual option works really well.

[Watis]

That range is beyond most electric cars - especially not at motorway speeds or in winter. Top end tesla maybe.

That's not to say that long journeys are impossible with electric cars. You just have to stop and charge. Many motorway services have extremely powerful DC charging stations which help here

You said not BMW, which rules out the i3 with Range extender. The range extender is a tiny petrol generator that charges the battery when you want it - so you can keep driving and not charge. (The drivetrain is fully electric so you still have the benefits of EV torque and low maintenance.) This is my car - our household's only car - chosen not just to enable longer trips, but also because chargers sometimes have someone else using them (and long term this will continue or get worse - more cars, stretched infrastructure). The dual option works really well.

And there's the nub.

As well as it taking longer to recharge an electric car's batteries than it does to fill a tank with petrol, you have to consider the likelihood of finding a vacant charging point. It's not an issue for petrol/diesel vehicles because there is massive redundancy in terms of available petrol stations and unoccupied pumps once you've chosed one.

Electric only vehicles will only appeal to the masses once these recharging issues have been resolved.

Watis

[bungeejumper]

As well as it taking longer to recharge an electric car's batteries than it does to fill a tank with petrol, you have to consider the likelihood of finding a vacant charging point. It's not an issue for petrol/diesel vehicles because there is massive redundancy in terms of available petrol stations and unoccupied pumps once you've chosed one.

Electric only vehicles will only appeal to the masses once these recharging issues have been resolved.

Precisely. Unless, of course, we are all reluctantly forced to change our travel habits?

When I'm heading down across France for my twice-yearly appointments with the Mediterranean region, I want to do the 500 mile run from Normandy in seven hours flat. Not "seven hours, give or take a two hour queue for the charging station at Orleans and another hour to charge, and probably another three-hour stop at Issoire." Just seven hours, thank you very much. I want to be down there in my favourite bar by the late afternoon/early evening.

Which may mean that I will have to change my expectations (and my travel plans), if and when electric cars become the norm. Will I do that? "Out of my cold, dead hands." (Charlton Heston.) Yeah, all right, maybe. Won't like it, though.

BJ

[vrdiver]

I'm hoping that electric cars are going to follow the same development curve as digital cameras did: when they first arrived on the scene, they were expensive and not as good as wet film. Their advantage was in not being limited to 36 exposures. As people adopted the technology, so the investment and the competition heated up. Anyone still got their 2005 digital SLR? (I still see 05 and 55 plates on the road.)

If the infrastructure expands, maybe there will also be an app that can send you to the most convenient available charging point, possibly with a booking window so you know it will be available when you get there? I'd also like to see Swap-over batteries, so I drive up, swap the battery and drive off. For those leasing batteries, this would be a no-brainer. For those who bought outright, there might be some issues!

I'm also assuming that the realistic battery range will increase, perhaps negating the swap-over idea? Or that technology like the BMW Range Extender will become standard, ensuring nobody gets stuck with a flat battery.

Early adopters will, as usual, pay the price for this development. Unusually, in this case, they get some form of return, not just in kudos, but in cheaper running costs (fuel). Whether this lasts as the tax on fossil fuel drops is another question.

In the meantime, I continue my search, possibly having to wait a few more months to see what else is launched.

[wheypat]

If the infrastructure expands, maybe there will also be an app that can send you to the most convenient available charging point, possibly with a booking window so you know it will be available when you get there? I'd also like to see Swap-over batteries, so I drive up, swap the battery and drive off. For those leasing batteries, this would be a no-brainer. For those who bought outright, there might be some issues!

There is a already an app (several actually) which show you local chargers and availability (as of now you can't book). Try ZapMap for one.

I agree about the carrot - so the carrot I have with my leaf is it costs 2p a mile to drive (approx 50% of my charges are at home, 50% elsewhere), plus I've joined a charging scheme (for £20 a year). I can now plug in in most local towns, parking is free and the car charges while I'm out and about.

As the charging network develops these perks will drop off.

The big issue will be all that lost revenue for the government - per mile charging will come in.

And battery technology is improving rapidly - IIRC the quote is capacity doubles every 7 years for the same £ of storage. So a car that this year can do 300 miles on a single charge should, by 2025 be doing 600, and by 2032 1200 miles. Should be enough for most people! Likewise charge rates - at home I can charge on a 3 pin plug, but I'm looking at getting a home charging station. So 3 pin plug charges at about 13 miles an hour (3kw). The home charging station should do 7kw, fast chargers do 50kw, Tesla superchargers are 150kw (approx) and the next generation are proposed to be 350kwh. So that would be about 1300 miles/hour.

It's like any new technology - it will take time to develop.

[vrdiver]

3 pin plug charges at about 13 miles an hour (3kw). The home charging station should do 7kw, fast chargers do 50kw, Tesla superchargers are 150kw (approx) and the next generation are proposed to be 350kwh. So that would be about 1300 miles/hour.

It's like any new technology - it will take time to develop.

My first reaction is "wow, better get the wiring checked!" Drawing those sorts of currents might put quite a lot of strain on the last bit of wiring from the grid to the house...

We have a compressor that runs on 3 phase. I assume that the higher power chargers will do the same?

[wheypat]

3 pin plug charges at about 13 miles an hour (3kw). The home charging station should do 7kw, fast chargers do 50kw, Tesla superchargers are 150kw (approx) and the next generation are proposed to be 350kwh. So that would be about 1300 miles/hour.

It's like any new technology - it will take time to develop.

My first reaction is "wow, better get the wiring checked!" Drawing those sorts of currents might put quite a lot of strain on the last bit of wiring from the grid to the house...

We have a compressor that runs on 3 phase. I assume that the higher power chargers will do the same?

I assume so - we've had an electrician out to carry out an estimate but IIRC 3 phase will be involved. Not had the quote back as of yet.

[gryffron]

My first reaction is "wow, better get the wiring checked!" Drawing those sorts of currents might put quite a lot of strain on the last bit of wiring from the grid to the house...
We have a compressor that runs on 3 phase. I assume that the higher power chargers will do the same?

Most homes have a 100A single phase supply. But charging at home isn't really the issue. You have plenty of time then. Trickle charging at home doesn't matter if it takes hours, cos you're tucked up in bed.

The huge benefit of electric cars would be if we can get them to store up the cheap surplus electricity at times of low demand. Which means storing up all that solar during the day when you are at work, or surplus nuclear in the middle of the night. The trick for govt is to incentivise electric car drivers to charge when the grid needs it, not when you need it.

Gryff

[Meatyfool]

The trick for govt is to incentivise electric car drivers to charge when the grid needs it, not when you need it.

Gryff

True. That is what smart meters are for. When rollout is complete, time based charging of electricity will be up and running.

Get home and charge your car at 5:30pm (peak time)? 40p/kWh.

Get home and put your car on charging timer to charge at 02:30 (off-peak)? 5p/kWh.

Easy.

Meatyfool..

[wheypat]

The trick for govt is to incentivise electric car drivers to charge when the grid needs it, not when you need it.

Gryff

True. That is what smart meters are for. When rollout is complete, time based charging of electricity will be up and running.

Get home and charge your car at 5:30pm (peak time)? 40p/kWh.

Get home and put your car on charging timer to charge at 02:30 (off-peak)? 5p/kWh.

Easy.

Meatyfool..

I think it will be even better than that - get home, plug the car in and sell the stored power back to the grid at 10p, then start re-charging at 11pm at 5p. Should help overcome the power spikes. Set the car to never allow the battery to discharge below xxx miles.