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Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

wildlife, gardening, environment, Rural living, Pets and Vets
colin
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Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#159461

Postby colin » August 14th, 2018, 11:02 am


This must signify the biggest change in attitudes to predators since otter hunting was banned.

scotia
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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#159495

Postby scotia » August 14th, 2018, 12:34 pm

I have been at meetings where the re-introduction of the Lynx, Wolf and Bear have all been proposed. The feeling was that the Lynx was the only one that stood any chance of being accepted. But the noises from Government (especially the Scottish Government) suggest that there is unlikely to be any agreement on these current proposals, whether or not landowners agree.
I'm not a farmer, so I'm neutral on the Lynx, but as a keen walker and fisher in remote areas I don't want to have to look out for wolves or bears!

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#159597

Postby colin » August 14th, 2018, 4:52 pm

Yes I thought much the same thing,(about Lynx re-introduction) in Poland the bounty on wolves was lifted to protect the valuable forestry . another article I came across said that they would fit the lynx with collars which could deliver a tranquilizer dose if they crossed an invisible electrical boundary, I think they use such systems for cattle which deliver a shock. Shame they can't release wolves and bears on Rum though, I have come across a few and have probably hiked what now amounts to a few years in their territory with no problems. There is a lot of scaremongering about such creatures really and a lot of people lose their perspective. In 2016 around 15,000 sheep were killed by dogs https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/21/dog-attacks-sheep-10-times-worse-feared-figures-show/
Predators and prey go together and I have always thought that they create each other through the evolutionary process. if we can afford to why not let them carry on creating each other? after all without predators and competition life would never have evolved beyond a soup of single celled organisms.

scotia
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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#159634

Postby scotia » August 14th, 2018, 6:29 pm

I remember one of the discussions on bears, which was backed up by the following (apocryphal?) story.

In Central Europe, where brown bears roam freely, a woman visited her doctor with a badly bruised shoulder, where she had been struck by a brown bear. The doctor was puzzled - this was a very rare occurrence - how had it happened? Well, explained the woman, the bear came into her orchard and was stealing her apples, so she proceeded to hit it with her broom. The doctor asked - did she not think that the bear might retaliate. No she said - I have done this many times, and the bears always run away.

I still wouldn't like to be fishing a remote hill loch when a brown bear or a pack of wolves appeared, just in case they thought a septuagenarian was due to be culled.

colin
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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#160570

Postby colin » August 19th, 2018, 12:43 pm

Yes I came across that story published in a large coffee table book on the Big Three Predators (bear , wolf and lynx) published by I think by the European Predator Project, I once met a Swiss biologist who as a student had a winter volunteer job looking after two wolves in a log cabin in the snowy mountains of Romania , he took them for walks each day and said it was just like looking after two dogs, in the summer volunteers would take them to Romanian schools to educate the kids about the reality of wolves. When David Mech who is probably the foremost expert on North American wolves wants to weigh the cubs his plane lands on the snow nearby, he walks up to the den , pulls the cubs out and weighs them while the adults stand around doing nothing . That's not to say that wolves can't be dangerous under certain circumstances. Wolves can be very curious about people, I have been followed by a family and I knew an old Canadian who was followed when picking berries with his wife, but they will only attack animals which behave like prey so as long as people are confident and do not start panicking and running there is no danger. A US biologist in an enclosure was killed recently and it is believed she tripped over which triggered the animals kill response. Dogs are far more dangerous because they can react aggressively when we transgress on their territory which wolves do not do . The problem I see with introducing such animals to somewhere like Scotland is that it is so open and easy to walk mostly anywhere that I believe some people would start to habituate and tame wolves which would lead to problems, the same with bears. But then every large animal is potentially dangerous including cows and horses. Another problem with bears in Scotland is that the environment is ecologically very poor thus making it difficult for bears to get enough calories to hibernate which would make them aggressive to any perceived threat to their ability to build up fat for the winter. The habitat would need to be restored first which is a 100 + year job, compared to what it should be the Highlands are an ecological wasteland infested with deer, wolves would love it though if people could learn how to live with them.
Have you seen the documentary about Hercules? the Grizzly who swam off before filming an advert for toilet paper and roamed wild on Benbecula for three weeks? Quite a film, they have a statue of him there now.
What did you think about the beaver re introduction? I understand someone has been unofficially releasing them from Loch Tay?

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#160586

Postby Stonge » August 19th, 2018, 2:12 pm

Crazy, these are dangerous animals.

scotia
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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#160596

Postby scotia » August 19th, 2018, 2:57 pm

What did you think about the beaver re introduction? I understand someone has been unofficially releasing them from Loch Tay?

We were keen to see the beavers which were officially re introduced in Knapdale, and we spent several evenings getting eaten alive by midges, without seeing a single beaver - although there were signs of beavers all around - including a forest track now under water due to a beaver dam.
Then we saw a mention of them on Tayside, and we heard that they could be seen regularly in the evening at Loch of the Lowes from the (Osprey) viewing hide of the Scottish Wildlife Trust. So we have doubled up - we regularly follow the Ospreys (this year's parents have just departed for Africa), and in the evening we have several times watched a beaver cruise past the hide. I don't know how the beavers arrived on Tayside, but they now seem to be widespread.
I gather that the Tayside beavers are not universally liked, due to their destructive habits. One Canadian naturalist who I was talking to thought we were mad introducing a species which can seriously disrupt a currently balanced ecological system.

colin
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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#160649

Postby colin » August 19th, 2018, 9:05 pm

I was told that there is a suspicion that the Tayside beavers were introduced by a landowner who had a special license to import European beavers for an enclosure on his/her own land and somehow the beavers escaped or were released. My own thoughts when I heard about the official introduction project was to question if there is enough riverside habitat for them to spread into? Personally I would rather see a focus on reducing deer numbers to the point where trees can regenerate untill a suitable habitat is in place for them. In Yellowstone National park beaver numbers plummeted before the wolf reintroduction because deer numbers were so high that natural regeneration of the cut stumps could not occur, and I fear that the situation prevailing today in Scotland is similar , if it transpires that the trees the beavers cut down on Tayside cannot regrow that will not be so good.Even here in England it's a real issue when coppicing to protect the cut stumps from excessive browsing by deer otherwise they are killed off. Were the beavers from the official introduction neutered?
Not really sure what the Canadian ecologist meant it would be nice to hear further reasoning but it's hard to see how anywhere in Britain can be described as ecologically 'in balance'. I have seen what North American and European beavers can do and there is a huge difference, I have walked along the dams of North American beavers to cross the lakes they create and the engineering is quite substantial, the big Aspen trees which they cut down in the Canadian forest are huge, by contrast in Scandinavia the dams I saw were much smaller and they tended to create ponds rather than lakes, they also could make areas quite marshy and waterlogged whether or not that is a problem really depends on your point of view, but if they have lakes or wide rivers available they don't bother building a dam they make do with a lodge.
I remember in my younger days paddling across Canadian lakes watching Ospreys watching me and passing beavers which promptly slapped their tail in warning and dissapeared so all I ever saw of them was the tips of their noses and the slapping tail.
I do think though that the best gift the Scottish people could leave to future generations would be the reduction of deer numbers to the point where their population was 'in balance' with the requirements of woodland re-generation.
Personally I intend to do my bit by bequeathing any remaining funds after my care costs to charities that own and manage land for conservation. I do think that the Wildlife Trusts and the RSPB are making a huge difference, not so sure about the National Trust in Scotland, what is the reputation of the John Muir Trust in Scotland, are they doing good work?

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#161013

Postby scotia » August 21st, 2018, 12:37 pm

Were the beavers from the official introduction neutered?

No - they are a breeding population. They have substantially altered the local eco system . One large dam has flooded an area of forest, and the path through it. At considerable cost a new path was constructed over higher ground, with a pontoon section along the lochside. The "trial" has ended and on 24th November 2016 the Scottish Government announced that the beavers are to remain in Scotland. Efforts are now being made in "re-enforcing this population to ensure its long term future"
On the subject of Red Deer - In June we were in Assynt, and we were astonished at the large herds of deer grazing in roadside fields. Normally we would see smaller herds in rougher, higher ground, but possibly the long winter had driven them to seek better pasture. The John Muir Trust and Scottish Natural Heritage have been arguing for a deer cull to protect ancient woodland, but the Assynt crofters disagree, and maintain this would reduce their income from stalking.

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#161019

Postby Watis » August 21st, 2018, 1:03 pm

Stonge wrote:Crazy, these are dangerous animals.


I agree with Stonge.

I like being able to walk anywhere in the UK knowing that I won't encounter any animals who regard me as a meal.

I accept the risks of being attacked by swarms of wasps or bees, or being trampled by a herd of cattle but those are self defence rather than an attempt to eat me. And I have a better chance of avoiding such risks.

Watis

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#161046

Postby UncleIan » August 21st, 2018, 2:34 pm

Watis wrote:I like being able to walk anywhere in the UK knowing that I won't encounter any animals who regard me as a meal.


Like mosquitos and ticks you mean?

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#161088

Postby colin » August 21st, 2018, 6:42 pm

I like being able to walk anywhere in the UK knowing that I won't encounter any animals who regard me as a meal.

Yes me too, which is why I have never gone hiking and wild camping in Spitsbergen or Greenland where they have the only European predator which hunts humans . polar bears.

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#161093

Postby colin » August 21st, 2018, 7:33 pm

but the Assynt crofters disagree, and maintain this would reduce their income from stalking.


I did not realize that crofters ran stalking operations I assumed it was the big traditional estates.

In the old library (drawing room?) of Kinloch Castle on Rum there are mounted trophy deer heads from the 19th C. The estate owners at that time tried to 'improve' the small sized local deer by importing red deer from Poland which had been raised in a much more nutrient rich forest environment. The difference in size between the antler wracks of the natives and the forest bred animals is clear to see. Later when the island was bought by the state it was there that the experiments on the effects of overgrazing by deer were carried out in order to inform the Red Deer Commission as to what level of deer numbers could be supported on the mainland without resulting in mallnourishment and large numbers of starving deer in winter. One thing they found was that as the environment becomes poorer in nutrient levels the proportions of hinds to stags changes, poorly nourished hinds produce more hinds because they require less energy to create and maintain. So it may be that from the perspective of the stalking community they would be better off with less deer, better fed bigger and with more stags, living in the forested environment they have evolved to exploit. Whats happening now is that the deer are being excluded from the remaining fragments of native forest to allow them to regenerate, but this just condemns the deer population to making do with the poorest most heavily grazed environments and denies them access to shelter in the winter. There are not many places in Scotland bellow 2000 feet that would not be naturally forested without heavy grazing except for the most windswept clifftops and the like.

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#161166

Postby Watis » August 22nd, 2018, 8:57 am

UncleIan wrote:
Watis wrote:I like being able to walk anywhere in the UK knowing that I won't encounter any animals who regard me as a meal.


Like mosquitos and ticks you mean?


At least mosquitos and ticks leave enough of me behind that my life can carry on!

Watis

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#161168

Postby Watis » August 22nd, 2018, 9:01 am

ap8889 wrote:Feral by George Monbiot is a book that changed my life. It explained what I had been missing: nature. I now temporarily live in SE Asia for a project. I regularly see all sorts of large wildlife ranging from crocodiles to primates. It is a real thrill to walk into the jungle and encounter a creature like a sun-bear or a mature cobra. I do so daily.

We badly need to re-forest the UK. As for wolves and bears: Yes please! These creatures are shy and not likely to agress humans. We have way too many sheep and deer.


No, thank you! What you say is likely to be true most of the time but an older or diseased animal may have no choice but to go for a human that is slower than their usual prey.

Sheep and deer can be turned into food and clothing so that one should be easy to solve.

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#161207

Postby colin » August 22nd, 2018, 12:11 pm

Feral by George Monbiot is a book that changed my life. It explained what I had been missing: nature. I now temporarily live in SE Asia for a project. I regularly see all sorts of large wildlife ranging from crocodiles to primates. It is a real thrill to walk into the jungle and encounter a creature like a sun-bear or a mature cobra. I do so daily.

We badly need to re-forest the UK. As for wolves and bears: Yes please! These creatures are shy and not likely to agress humans. We have way too many sheep and deer.


Experiencing the natural world as being full of wonder is something that makes ones life really worthwhile, unfortunately it's not something that everyone is open to, why not I have no idea some people are more afraid of change and new things than others.
It does seem that the time has come for the sort of changes to our landscape promoted by Monbiot though I have only read articles by him. The public consultation document published in advance of the agriculture bill gave some very informative background information to the state of British agriculture , most farms in the west of the country cannot make a profit from food production. There was a meeting in South Wales on 're-wilding' the hills in the sense of restoring the vegetation , apparently most of the farmers present were happy with the basic idea saying all they had ever done was whatever we paid them to do.

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#161216

Postby colin » August 22nd, 2018, 12:53 pm

No, thank you! What you say is likely to be true most of the time but an older or diseased animal may have no choice but to go for a human that is slower than their usual prey.


The breeding wolf population in Spain and Portugal numbers into the thousands, people regularly walk and camp in the country they inhabit without incident. If these animals were as dangerous as you believe then they would have been exterminated a long time ago. Wolves in Iberia are considered a threat by the hunting community, many hunters hate wolves because they perceive them as a threat to their ability to find prey animals, not because they are a threat to peoples safety. They are also a threat to their dogs.The wolf has recently returned to France and is apparently quite popular with most people though farmers have made their feelings on the matter known.
No one is seriously talking about introducing wolves and bears to the UK at the moment. Though there was an application from the Allerdale Estate in Scotland a few years ago to create a fenced area where wolves would be allowed to predate the red deer. The application was refused on the grounds that they wanted to create a wildlife park without protecting the animals from predators.
If wolves and bears were ever introduced to the UK my guess is that it would be to Rum which was bought with the idea that the ecosystem there would be restored to its natural state, but public attitudes would have to change first. It's been a long time since I visited Rum and then the feeling was that the Presbyterian church was opposed to the maintenance of land primarily as a nature reserve, believing that all land should provide food for people and they wanted to see more crofting families living there not just the one familly of tenant farmers. Those were the days when they would chain up the play grounds on Hebridean Islands on a Sunday so children did not waste time having fun on the Sabath. Attitudes change. People travel and become more enlightened. Across Europe as a whole marginal farmland is being abandoned because intensive agriculture produces food on the better land at a cheaper price , in Portugal land once used for farming is being run as nature reserves with income coming from eco tourism. Things change as we become richer we become more able to tolerate such animals.

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#161229

Postby UncleEbenezer » August 22nd, 2018, 2:24 pm

Stonge wrote:Crazy, these are dangerous animals.

Not as dangerous as humans. Can we get rid of those?

I asked about the wildlife when I first moved out to Italy. I was reassured that if I was eaten by a wolf or bear, I'd have the distinction of being the first in 300 years.

Couple of years later, I camped late at night (in darkness). When I got up in the morning (daylight), I saw bear tracks in the snow around the tent. I never saw an actual bear, but a friend got some excellent photos of one that passed him on the trail (he scarpered off the trail when he saw it coming).

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#161243

Postby colin » August 22nd, 2018, 4:06 pm

That's a nice tale, there was a survey done on social attitudes to wolves in Europe carried out a few decades ago, they found that the further away from such animals people lived the more fearsome their reputation became.

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#161288

Postby scotia » August 22nd, 2018, 6:00 pm

colin wrote:
I did not realize that crofters ran stalking operations I assumed it was the big traditional estates.

The Assynt Crofters Trust is the big estate - there was a crofter buy-out of the 21,000 acre North Assynt Estate in 1993.
They are very protective of their estate, since the buy-out ended a long series of owners who had little interest in the families living on the estate. They offer fishing - which I engage in, and also stalking and photo stalking. I haven't seen any stalking taking place, since I normally fish earlier in the season.


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