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Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

wildlife, gardening, environment, Rural living, Pets and Vets
colin
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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#161342

Postby colin » August 22nd, 2018, 8:57 pm

Yes they have an interesting website, currently in dispute with Scottish natural Heritage regarding woodland regeneration of a birch wood, Ardvarr Woods.
http://www.theassyntcrofters.co.uk/snh-in-assynt/

Birch trees are a colonizer species and with a relaxation of grazing pressure would spread over much of the open landscapes shown in the pictures. Personally I think that that such landscapes once colonized by maturing birch trees would become much more enticing to tourists and bring more money into the community, in the long term with increased native tree cover other options become do able such as the re introduction of moose, why could commercial deer stalking not adapt to a forested landscape and incorporate moose hunting? with beaver introductions just think of the potential for wildlife tourism. Lets face it on a bad day one look at the open highland landscapes makes a shiver run down the spine, with naturally regenerating forest on a big scale all that changes and new options become possible such as chains of cabins through the woods which families can rent, the open landscape as it stands terrifies most families from really exploring highland landscapes because the environment just seems so hostile.

scotia
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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#161476

Postby scotia » August 23rd, 2018, 1:16 pm

There's an article in the Glasgow Herald today about the Kielder Lynx proposal with a header "Group refutes claims that local landowners had given permission for trust's project introducing lynx to forest". It includes the following quotes, apparently issued after a community meeting:- "We are calling on Natural England to thoroughly test all claims made within the licensing application by the Lynx UK Trust"

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#161488

Postby scotia » August 23rd, 2018, 1:54 pm

Colin - you said
Personally I think that that such landscapes once colonized by maturing birch trees would become much more enticing to tourists

I fully agree. There is an excellent example in the Little Assynt Estate - which was purchased by the Culag Community Woodland Trust with help from government agencies and charities. culagwoods.org.uk/index.php/little-assynt-estate/
Broad leaf trees were planted some years ago, and the vegetation is thriving - protected by deer fencing. The backdrop of the ridge containing Quinag is stunning.
With tongue in cheek, I've got to say that the dense vegetation makes it a lot harder to fish from the banks of its lochs!
However drifting on the lochs in one of their boats is a joy - and it doesn't even matter if don't want to fish!

colin
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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#161589

Postby colin » August 23rd, 2018, 8:11 pm

"We are calling on Natural England to thoroughly test all claims made within the licensing application by the Lynx UK Trust"
Top

Yes I am not surprised, the reference to the tranquilizer collars I came across is intriguing but it does sound a bit unlikely, presumably they would need to continuously trap the animals to top up the sleepy juice? I bet the owner of the Alladale Estate is watching with great interest.
The only time I ever really enjoyed fishing was paddling accross Canadian lakes in a canoe with the rod stuffed under the seat and trailing a lure behind me, I found I could paddle just fast enough to keep ahead of the line of mosquitoes following behind! Can you get away from Scottish midges in a boat?

scotia
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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#161651

Postby scotia » August 24th, 2018, 12:32 am

colin wrote: Can you get away from Scottish midges in a boat?

They are usually less troublesome out in the middle of a loch, and it certainly keeps you away from the ticks in the dense heather!

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#163711

Postby Stonge » September 2nd, 2018, 12:18 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
Couple of years later, I camped late at night (in darkness). When I got up in the morning (daylight), I saw bear tracks in the snow around the tent. I never saw an actual bear, but a friend got some excellent photos of one that passed him on the trail (he scarpered off the trail when he saw it coming).


Survivor bias?

colin
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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#163986

Postby colin » September 3rd, 2018, 7:44 pm

interesting note from The Ecologist website
Lynx UK Trust have already arranged insurance for every sheep in the UK against lynx attacks, backed by Lloyds Syndicate ARK Speciality Programs, a specialist division of Lloyds of London headed up by Richard Bryant

He said: "I hope this insurance cover will provide sound financial security for the Trust so they will be able to generously compensate farmers if any of their sheep are injured or killed.

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#164836

Postby UncleEbenezer » September 7th, 2018, 9:43 am

colin wrote:interesting note from The Ecologist website

Well, that'll be expensive. Mostly in lawyers fees.

'Cos you can be sure, it'll become a fine magnet for claims for sheep lost through all sorts of things. Maybe even sheep that were just surplus to requirements: ... select lowest-value sheep, set the dogs on them, blame the lynx, claim at higher-value ...
And of course, claims like that will cost much more to investigate and debunk than to settle.

colin
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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#164855

Postby colin » September 7th, 2018, 11:01 am

'Cos you can be sure, it'll become a fine magnet for claims for sheep lost through all sorts of things

Yes i'm sure, given that sheep in their thousands are killed by dogs every year. A few decades ago I was told by locals that farmers with dead lambs would lay them on the West Highland railway line then claim compensation from the train company for mangled sheep, during foot and mouth when sheep movements were banned a reliable source told me that they had been driving behind a landrover pulling an old decrepit looking caravan near the Lakes when a curtain twitched and a sheep looked out the window, there had been rumors about at the time that some farmers had been passing on sick sheep to neighbors who wanted the government compensation when their herd had to be culled.

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#166636

Postby scotia » September 16th, 2018, 1:53 am

I was up on the west side of Rannoch Moor, just south of Glencoe earlier today (Saturday 15th). That part of the moor is extensively covered with lochs, with treeless mossy bog in between. I was there fishing for wild brown trout (debarbed hooks - all safely returned). Surprisingly there are isolated pockets of trees - and as you approach them you find that they are all on small islands in the lochs. I suppose I hadn't thought deeply about it before - presumably the trees have only survived due to the absence of grazing animals - which in this case is red deer. While approaching this area from the south, there are recent tree plantations with deer fencing. I also noticed two dead red deer at the roadside - presumably road kills. I believe the normal habitat for Lynx is a forest, so I don't suppose the Moor would be a suitable place to start their reintroduction. However all such speculation is irrelevant - the Scottish Government's SNP Rural Economy Minister was quoted earlier this year saying wolves, bears and lynx will be reintroduced to Scotland "over my dead body".

colin
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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#166697

Postby colin » September 16th, 2018, 12:26 pm

and as you approach them you find that they are all on small islands in the lochs. I suppose I hadn't thought deeply about it before - presumably the trees have only survived due to the absence of grazing animals -

Ah! now you are looking at the land like an ecologist.

I believe the normal habitat for Lynx is a forest, so I don't suppose the Moor would be a suitable place to start their reintroduction.


That's right , they are not supposed to like open country, somewhat agrophobic. they really do not want to be seen.The main prey of sub-arctic lynx is not deer but smaller animals such as mountain hares lemmings and voles. So I would expect the favored hunting ground of lynx in a natural habitat to be around the tree line where they can find cover among the scattered trees just above the denser forest where they will lie up during the day. In Scotland there is very little of this habitat actually left , I suspect what you are familiar with are fenced forests which have a sharp boundary between wooded and open habitat. Natural forests do not develop like this , the trees thin out and gradually give way to open moor as one ascends.However I did come across a comment by a teacher / reindeer herder who had inherited her fathers herd in Sweden. She said while traveling the open hills above the forest on horseback she was coming across Lynx tracks in the snow, ( in spring there are still large patches of snow in the lappland hills) She attributed this new and surprising behavior to perhaps a vacant niche becoming available due to the extinction of wolves. Her point being that if wolves don't hunt deer something else will evolve to do so. The red deer themselves have evolved as woodland browsers , they just make do with open country in Scotland because they have to. (and to get away from midges in the summer)
Given enough time foxes will evolve to hunt deer just because there is a vacant niche waiting to be filled, i once met a shepherd in Glencoe who was convinced a large fox had been killing his adult sheep, I did not believe him at the time thinking it would more likely be a large dog but who knows? Nothing in nature is static.


the Scottish Government's SNP Rural Economy Minister was quoted earlier this year saying wolves, bears and lynx will be reintroduced to Scotland "over my dead body".

Kielder forest is not that far from Scotland, the English never introduced pine martins but we have them now I believe. And to be honest given the recent history of surreptitious beaver introductions by unlicensed anonymous sympathizers I wonder how long it will be before the same thing happens with Lynx?

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#166763

Postby scotia » September 16th, 2018, 6:58 pm

colin wrote:The red deer themselves have evolved as woodland browsers , they just make do with open country in Scotland because they have to. (and to get away from midges in the summer)

The midges seem to have been an endangered species this year - not that I am concerned!
Kielder forest is not that far from Scotland, the English never introduced pine martins but we have them now I believe. And to be honest given the recent history of surreptitious beaver introductions by unlicensed anonymous sympathizers I wonder how long it will be before the same thing happens with Lynx?

English Invaders! Another cause celebre for the SNP! :roll:

colin
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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#166768

Postby colin » September 16th, 2018, 7:14 pm

Damn Sassenach Cats!

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#166887

Postby Gengulphus » September 17th, 2018, 11:16 am

scotia wrote:
colin wrote:Kielder forest is not that far from Scotland, the English never introduced pine martins but we have them now I believe. And to be honest given the recent history of surreptitious beaver introductions by unlicensed anonymous sympathizers I wonder how long it will be before the same thing happens with Lynx?

English Invaders! Another cause celebre for the SNP! :roll:

Do you expect no retaliation when we get Scottish raiders in the form of pine martins? ;-)

Gengulphus

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#167920

Postby muldonach » September 21st, 2018, 1:04 pm

colin wrote:Yes they have an interesting website, currently in dispute with Scottish natural Heritage regarding woodland regeneration of a birch wood, Ardvarr Woods.
http://www.theassyntcrofters.co.uk/snh-in-assynt/

Birch trees are a colonizer species and with a relaxation of grazing pressure would spread over much of the open landscapes shown in the pictures. Personally I think that that such landscapes once colonized by maturing birch trees would become much more enticing to tourists and bring more money into the community, in the long term with increased native tree cover other options become do able such as the re introduction of moose, why could commercial deer stalking not adapt to a forested landscape and incorporate moose hunting? with beaver introductions just think of the potential for wildlife tourism. Lets face it on a bad day one look at the open highland landscapes makes a shiver run down the spine, with naturally regenerating forest on a big scale all that changes and new options become possible such as chains of cabins through the woods which families can rent, the open landscape as it stands terrifies most families from really exploring highland landscapes because the environment just seems so hostile.


Deer stalking is a major source of income for the Assynt crofters, they eventually won thier case and left SNH with considerable egg on face as I understand it.

Maybe worth pointing out as well that European Lynx are predators of roe and not red deer. Commercial deer stalking can easily take place (and does) in a forested landscape.

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#167945

Postby scotia » September 21st, 2018, 3:07 pm

muldonach wrote:Maybe worth pointing out as well that European Lynx are predators of roe and not red deer.

Roe Deer culls are taking place in Central Scotland, due to a significant increase in their numbers. As well as the usual reason for such a cull, namely "damage to woodland", another reason given is "jeopardy to road users". I understand that the culls nearby where I live take place in the early morning hours - when the general public are not around. Maybe Lynx would prove to be effective control, but I'm not sure if our local dog walkers would appreciate their presence.

I'm all in favour of the Assynt Crofters being able to make a living from their land, but maybe they could make the "stalking" a little more difficult. Currently the Red Deer freely stroll through Lochinver, and they have erected fencing around the football field to avoid the Red Deer taking part. Maybe there is a reasonable argument for some reduction in their number. I remember talking to a local from Inchnadamph who complained that her garden was protected like a stockade in order to grow any crops.

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#167993

Postby madhatter » September 21st, 2018, 5:46 pm

I read somewhere that mere presence of predators in a landscape has an effect on the behaviour and particularly the reproduction rate of potential prey populations. When it has stabilised, the reduction in population goes well beyond the numbers that actually end up as lunch.

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#168006

Postby colin » September 21st, 2018, 7:03 pm

'm all in favour of the Assynt Crofters being able to make a living from their land, but maybe they could make the "stalking" a little more difficult. Currently the Red Deer freely stroll through Lochinver, and they have erected fencing around the football field to avoid the Red Deer taking part. Maybe there is a reasonable argument for some reduction in their number. I remember talking to a local from Inchnadamph who complained that her garden was protected like a stockade in order to grow any crops.
Top


I think there is a paradox at the heart of the red deer problem in Scotland which is that the deer belong to no one and cross back and forth across ownership boundaries as they please, yet landowners to a degree are responsible for keeping numbers within certain limits, it looks as though farm subsidies paid for mere ownership of agricultural land will in future become dependent on the provision of public 'goods' , I realize that the deer forests are hardly agricultural but perhaps deer should be culled at the public expense?

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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#168544

Postby muldonach » September 24th, 2018, 11:00 am

colin wrote:
'm all in favour of the Assynt Crofters being able to make a living from their land, but maybe they could make the "stalking" a little more difficult. Currently the Red Deer freely stroll through Lochinver, and they have erected fencing around the football field to avoid the Red Deer taking part. Maybe there is a reasonable argument for some reduction in their number. I remember talking to a local from Inchnadamph who complained that her garden was protected like a stockade in order to grow any crops.
Top


I think there is a paradox at the heart of the red deer problem in Scotland which is that the deer belong to no one and cross back and forth across ownership boundaries as they please, yet landowners to a degree are responsible for keeping numbers within certain limits, it looks as though farm subsidies paid for mere ownership of agricultural land will in future become dependent on the provision of public 'goods' , I realize that the deer forests are hardly agricultural but perhaps deer should be culled at the public expense?


I am not in any way familiar with the current local conditions in Lochinver but centrefire rifles and houses make a very poor combination, I would be reasonably confident that no deer stalking takes place in the circumstances described.

It is also perhaps worth pointing out that recreational stalking (the money earner) invariably takes place on stags and the effect on the deer population is exactly zero. Population control is done through the removal of breeding age females from the population and generates very little in the way of recreational revenue.

Gardens and the plants within them are very attractive to deer - my recollections of the areas around Lochinver do not include much at all in the way of decent pasture or arable cropping so your locals garden in human terms is the equivalent of a sweetie stall left unattended.

On the second post deer are indeed wild animals which by law belong to no one, and no one is responsible for them directly. The Scottish Government however has taken powers to allow enforcement of statutory culls, and can ultimately send in cull teams in the manner described with costs chargeable to the landowner concerned, it is unlikely, and in my view highly undesirable, that they would extend this to the system advocated above.

It is also perhaps worth correcting a common misunderstanding voiced above - there is no farm subsidy payable for the mere ownership of agricultural land.

scotia
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Re: Landowners agree to Lynx re-introduction

#168557

Postby scotia » September 24th, 2018, 11:28 am

muldonach wrote:I am not in any way familiar with the current local conditions in Lochinver but centrefire rifles and houses make a very poor combination, I would be reasonably confident that no deer stalking takes place in the circumstances described.

I was not suggesting that stalking took place within Lochinver, but merely that the presence of the deer suggested overpopulation, and that a sensible cull in Assynt should not have any deleterious affect on stalking. I spend a week annually fishing the Assynt Crofter's estate, and the problem of ticks has significantly increased, possibly associated with the deer.


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