Format of Old TV programmes

[XFool]

I know I have asked a similar (possibly even the same!) question before, likely on TMF...

I am watching The Bill (Again?) on Drama. They are from around 2001. I'm watching on an old 4:3 CRT receiver (not sure that's important) with a digibox set (still) to normally display in the compromise 14:9 format.

Originally The Bill was made in 4:3 and it was being transmitted now in forced 4:3 format, so fitted by old CRT perfectly. Just last week or so it became obvious that they had reached the point in time where production had switched to widescreen, likely originally transmitted in 14:9. But it is still being transmitted to air now on forced 4:3 format, so the physical picture still exactly fits my old 4:3 CRT OK but it is fairly obvious the programme was not produced in a 4:3 picture format. The picture appears visibly squished, left to right.

Why is this done? Why cannot it be transmitted now as originally - possibly 14:9 or even the presumably original production format of 16:9?

TIA

[XFool]

Blimey! Result!

It's just come back from an ad break (in widescreen, obviously) and is now displaying in widescreen - 14:9 in my case.

Weird...

Somebody forgot to throw a switch? Somebody rang up to complain? Electronics not working correctly somewhere?

[XFool]

...reverted to forced 4:3 this morning and with the station ID clearly visible in the top left hand corner of the screen. Weird. They seem to have these recorded under different formats.

Does anyone have any inside knowledge?

[Skotch]

One thing I've noticed is that if watching in 'normal' definition, there is a full screen, but when watching in a HD version, the programmes revert to 4:3 format - this is some of the stuff on Dave/Alibi via a Virgin cable box.

[XFool]

One thing I've noticed is that if watching in 'normal' definition, there is a full screen, but when watching in a HD version, the programmes revert to 4:3 format - this is some of the stuff on Dave/Alibi via a Virgin cable box.

That's crazy! Surely any HD recorded programme was never in 4:3 format to begin with? Is this genuine 4:3 or 'squished' 4:3?

The question reminds me that The Bill programme of my immediately preceding post seemed to have somehow (how?) been a genuine 4:3 recording, because it looked natural not squished like the one in my OP, where - as it reverted following an ad break - there must have been some kind of technical mistake. But then, as what's on now dates from 2002 (and was the second episode of a two parter, with the first part in wide screen!) so after the switch to wide screen, how could ANY episode then be in apparent genuine 4:3 format?

None of it seems to make any sense.

Bring back 4:3 and Academy Ratio - we all knew where we were then!

[XFool]

It's time to give up trying to understand the basis of TV programme picture transmission standards. It's the only way...

I have been watching Callan (1967 - 1972) on Talking Pictures TV. Previous episodes broadcast in 4:3 standard (forced?), obviously. Until tonight, which is being broadcast in wide screen format (adjustable). Uh? How does THAT work?

I dunno. I've given up...

[XFool]

One thing I've noticed is that if watching in 'normal' definition, there is a full screen, but when watching in a HD version, the programmes revert to 4:3 format - this is some of the stuff on Dave/Alibi via a Virgin cable box.

That's crazy! Surely any HD recorded programme was never in 4:3 format to begin with? Is this genuine 4:3 or 'squished' 4:3?

The question reminds me that The Bill programme of my immediately preceding post seemed to have somehow (how?) been a genuine 4:3 recording, because it looked natural not squished like the one in my OP, where - as it reverted following an ad break - there must have been some kind of technical mistake. But then, as what's on now dates from 2002 (and was the second episode of a two parter, with the first part in wide screen!) so after the switch to wide screen, how could ANY episode then be in apparent genuine 4:3 format?

None of it seems to make any sense.

I did recently have a thought about this. Many popular programmes were sold abroad. Possibly those markets were still using 4:3 and, for some reason, current re-broadcasters in the UK only have rights to transmit these 4:3 versions of the original? But then that would mean programmes were originally recorded in two formats. Sounds cumbersome.

It's the only explanation I have been able to come up with, for the above at least.

[BobbyD]

I did recently have a thought about this. Many popular programmes were sold abroad. Possibly those markets were still using 4:3 and, for some reason, current re-broadcasters in the UK only have rights to transmit these 4:3 versions of the original? But then that would mean programmes were originally recorded in two formats. Sounds cumbersome.

It's the only explanation I have been able to come up with, for the above at least.

As somebody who regularly paid £4 extra for the Widescreen VHS over the Pan and Scan 4:3 version I feel compelled to point out that that assumption isn't entirely accurate.

[XFool]

I did recently have a thought about this. Many popular programmes were sold abroad. Possibly those markets were still using 4:3 and, for some reason, current re-broadcasters in the UK only have rights to transmit these 4:3 versions of the original? But then that would mean programmes were originally recorded in two formats. Sounds cumbersome.

It's the only explanation I have been able to come up with, for the above at least.

As somebody who regularly paid £4 extra for the Widescreen VHS over the Pan and Scan 4:3 version I feel compelled to point out that that assumption isn't entirely accurate.

What assumption?

I am struggling to make sense of what I see when old programmes are currently transmitted, so far I haven't been able to come up with any compelling, consistent explanation. Perhaps there isn't one? I was hoping there might be somebody around who has inside information who can point to a reasonably plausible answer. Do you have one?

TIA

[swill453]

I am struggling to make sense of what I see when old programmes are currently transmitted, so far I haven't been able to come up with any compelling, consistent explanation. Perhaps there isn't one? I was hoping there might be somebody around who has inside information who can point to a reasonably plausible answer.

I remember seeing that American sitcom Friends was filmed in widescreen (with a proper film camera maybe?) but cut down to be broadcast in 4:3. This led to some of the original film being unearthed which showed, for example, stand-in actors at the edge of the screen who were never intended to be shown on TV.

I don't know whether this is a general explanation of what you're seeing.

Scott.

[XFool]

I remember seeing that American sitcom Friends was filmed in widescreen (with a proper film camera maybe?) but cut down to be broadcast in 4:3. This led to some of the original film being unearthed which showed, for example, stand-in actors at the edge of the screen who were never intended to be shown on TV.

I don't know whether this is a general explanation of what you're seeing.

I have to say, it doesn't sound like it to me.

What is weird is the sudden changes from say the 'proper' format, e.g. 4:3 1970s Callan, being transmitted in 'forced' 4:3 one moment - makes sense! -
and then continuing in 'non forced' wide screen from the next programme - what? Or, wide screen 2000s The Bill, switching back to 'forced' 4:3 transmission AFTER having originally switched (presumably) to production in wide screen format and started by being re-transmitted as such. Now complete with station logo perfectly clearly and fully displayed in the correct place in the top left corner of the screen on an old 4:3 TV! What gives?

So, with say The Bill, is it a licensing/rights issue as I suggested? (But hardly explains Callan!)

But it is all so baffling that I am no longer even sure of my own memory of these bizarre switcharoos.

[BobbyD]

I did recently have a thought about this. Many popular programmes were sold abroad. Possibly those markets were still using 4:3 and, for some reason, current re-broadcasters in the UK only have rights to transmit these 4:3 versions of the original? But then that would mean programmes were originally recorded in two formats. Sounds cumbersome.

It's the only explanation I have been able to come up with, for the above at least.

As somebody who regularly paid £4 extra for the Widescreen VHS over the Pan and Scan 4:3 version I feel compelled to point out that that assumption isn't entirely accurate.

What assumption?

I am struggling to make sense of what I see when old programmes are currently transmitted, so far I haven't been able to come up with any compelling, consistent explanation. Perhaps there isn't one? I was hoping there might be somebody around who has inside information who can point to a reasonably plausible answer. Do you have one?

TIA

The assumption that a 4:3 version and a 16:9 version would require the programme to have been initially recorded in two formats. Sorry if that wasn't clear, but if you have a 16:9 you can very easily generate a 4:3, in the simplest and cheapest cases by automatically selecting the centre of every frame where most of the action happens and binning the bit to the left of it and the bit to the right of it. 5 minutes on a PC...

[XFool]

Right! The pieces fall into place.

I have a model, at least in the case of The Bill. The essential missing piece of the jigsaw, supplied by BobbyD, was money. Isn't it always? Never having ventured into VCR tapes and hiring I wasn't mindful of that, though I did think of the licensing issue for myself.

There is: the TV company, Drama TV; the current owners of the rights to The Bill, FREEMANTLE Media; management; technical matters

Drama TV pays to have the rights to show The Bill. It was produced originally in 4:3, it is transmitted by Drama TV in 'forced' 4:3 format. Come the day, the production of The Bill had changed to wide screen, the TV company receive the wide screen 'tape' (I'll just call it that for convenience) and transmit it, in 'forced' 4:3 format. Oops!

Somebody notices, somebody rings up to complain. Lots of very tall thin policemen getting in and out of short stubby police cars. The 'management' ring the 'studio' - or what passes as the studio these days, probably a small concrete shed on an industrial estate in Staines. During an advertising break the 'studio' switch off the 4:3 'forcing'. Result! Policemen shrink to normal height, police cars expand to proper length.

BUT

They didn't purchase a license to transmit The Bill in wide screen. So that 'tape' was a temporary cock-up or they had to renegotiate a price and they went for the Pan & Scan version as it was presumably cheaper.

Unfortunately, as I seem to remember the characters in The Bill at one time seemed to all look very broad shouldered, including the women and it wasn't the eighties, I guess having got the correct Pan & Scan 'tapes' to transmit it took a while before somebody realised they needed to turn 'forced' 4:3 transmission back on again. So the final piece of the jigsaw is just the usual: cock-up.

That just leaves Callan...

And I really would like to understand how that 'forced' 4:3 transmission actually works, it overrides normal Automatic Format Display (AFD) settings.

[XFool]

That just leaves Callan...

...Which has just gone back to 4:3 transmission. So I guess cock-up is all we really need to explain this example.