Rugby, dementia and me

[Fluke]

This documentary aired last night on BBC2, hard-hitting - in more ways than one. It was tragic to watch this former player in his early 40s unable to remember his 8 year old daughter's name, eventually describing her to one of the younger ones as 'the big one'. Going completely blank mid sentence unable to remember what he was talking about. He couldn't remember anything about the World Cup which he helped win for England or even being in Australia where the game was held.

Watching some of the footage of training sessions, it's wonder anyone emerges from the elite end of this sport without brain injury.

Pretty shocking stuff.

[BigB]

Ouch - was that about Steve Thompson?

When you see what has happened in the game in the last 5-10 years with regard to player safety and heads, you wonder how much further and how quickly it will go?

I watched some of the southern hemisphere TRC games recently and it steel feels like the culture on high/dangerous tackles is resistant to change. It took a while in the northern hemisphere, but the need to change for player safety feels largely accepted now.

Indirectly related, how long can boxing survive.

[ReformedCharacter]

I'll admit to being pretty ignorant about modern Rugby and how the rules have changed but it's clear to me that having watched 'Welsh Rugby's Golden Era: the 70s':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rXd8ftJSBo

How much the game has changed and how much more dangerous it has become. The effects on the players is ghastly.

RC

[Fluke]

Ouch - was that about Steve Thompson?

When you see what has happened in the game in the last 5-10 years with regard to player safety and heads, you wonder how much further and how quickly it will go?

I watched some of the southern hemisphere TRC games recently and it steel feels like the culture on high/dangerous tackles is resistant to change. It took a while in the northern hemisphere, but the need to change for player safety feels largely accepted now.

Indirectly related, how long can boxing survive.

Yes it was Steve Thompson, but hundreds of former elite level players are now coming out of the woodwork with neurological conditions brought about by repeated blows to the head, including CTE, NMD, dementia and others. Young men often still only in their 30s.

I don't know much about either sport but I believe boxers re forced to take 5 weeks out after a knockout. In Rugby they're routinely pulled up onto their feet and back playing in 5 minutes.

[BigB]

Ouch - was that about Steve Thompson?

When you see what has happened in the game in the last 5-10 years with regard to player safety and heads, you wonder how much further and how quickly it will go?

I watched some of the southern hemisphere TRC games recently and it steel feels like the culture on high/dangerous tackles is resistant to change. It took a while in the northern hemisphere, but the need to change for player safety feels largely accepted now.

Indirectly related, how long can boxing survive.

Yes it was Steve Thompson, but hundreds of former elite level players are now coming out of the woodwork with neurological conditions brought about by repeated blows to the head, including CTE, NMD, dementia and others. Young men often still only in their 30s.

I don't know much about either sport but I believe boxers re forced to take 5 weeks out after a knockout. In Rugby they're routinely pulled up onto their feet and back playing in 5 minutes.

In fact I think rugby has moved on from that situation, and many players now fail the HIA (head injury assessment) and do not come back after 10 minutes. At an earlier stage, there was an element of tokenism about the HIAs. These observations are based on top level international and elite rugby on tv, so there's always a camera replay available to nudge the ref. I'd expect that the attitude/culture is slowly trickling into the game at club rugby, and that several aspects are disappearing from the game though the juniors with coaching.

There are still challenges though - it's still a game where physical dominance helps one side beat another, and players still look to assert themselves within (or around the edge) of the rules, so the rules and guidance are under constant review. I don't see an existential threat to rugby union at this time.

Looking at boxing though, I wonder what will happen. A fundamental part of boxing is to hit the other fighter in the head, hard, and to knock them out. Fair enough, if you make a boxer take a 5 week timeout after getting knocked out - but what about aggregated impact of the 999 punches that didn't knock them out? Is there credible medical evidence that suggests that only knockout punches are damaging?

Maybe boxing will move away from the gladiatorial nature that it currently is for the pros, towards the amateur style with short fights and wins largely achieved through skill. I can't see this holding the large appeal it does for the pro fights though. Tricky, longer term.

cheers, BigB

[NotSure]

Ouch - was that about Steve Thompson?

When you see what has happened in the game in the last 5-10 years with regard to player safety and heads, you wonder how much further and how quickly it will go?

I watched some of the southern hemisphere TRC games recently and it steel feels like the culture on high/dangerous tackles is resistant to change. It took a while in the northern hemisphere, but the need to change for player safety feels largely accepted now.

Indirectly related, how long can boxing survive.

Yes it was Steve Thompson, but hundreds of former elite level players are now coming out of the woodwork with neurological conditions brought about by repeated blows to the head, including CTE, NMD, dementia and others. Young men often still only in their 30s.

I don't know much about either sport but I believe boxers re forced to take 5 weeks out after a knockout. In Rugby they're routinely pulled up onto their feet and back playing in 5 minutes.

Can't help but think this is an issue in super-macho rugby: https://www.beaumont.org/conditions/second-impact-syndrome

Recent study shows 15X chance of MND. (e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/04/rugby-urged-to-cut-matches-as-study-finds-players-risk-of-mnd-is-15-times-higher)

IMHO, folk should be free to do as they wish (so long as others not harmed in the process), but they should at least be informed of potential consequences.

[Fluke]

Looking at boxing though, I wonder what will happen. A fundamental part of boxing is to hit the other fighter in the head, hard, and to knock them out. Fair enough, if you make a boxer take a 5 week timeout after getting knocked out - but what about aggregated impact of the 999 punches that didn't knock them out? Is there credible medical evidence that suggests that only knockout punches are damaging?

cheers, BigB

No, in fact it is the repeated nature of the blows to the head that causes most of the long-term damage, possibly even more so than the knockouts which are less frequent.

Chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) is a progressive brain condition that's thought to be caused by repeated blows to the head and repeated episodes of concussion

As you point out the very point of boxing is to administer repeated blows to the head to your opponent with view to KO, but as I understand it not during training only during fights. Not so with Rugby which is where the controversy is. As reformedcharacter points out the game has changed, it's become far more combative, there are far more fixtures now during a typical season putting more pressure on clubs and as the documentary shows, training is even more combative than the games themselves. Steve Thompson points out that if there were one single change that could be made it would be that, it is wholly unnecessary during training to employ the sort of brute force tactics that result in concussion. He thinks that's where all the damage is done.

[terminal7]

It all changed in 1995 when a very young Jonah Lomu 'run through' Mike Catt. Rugby Union became more like American football with an ever-increasing emphasis on bulk and less on guile.

T7

[servodude]

It all changed in 1995 when a very young Jonah Lomu 'run through' Mike Catt. Rugby Union became more like American football with an ever-increasing emphasis on bulk and less on guile.

T7

Strangely coincident with the sport becoming professional