The Lemon Fool

Let's be honest Panorama can often sensationalise facts to portray a position.

However, having watched this documentary yesterday I'd like to, caveat above included, suggest you find the time to watch it.

I'm not going to spoil it for those who do want to watch but would like to mention that as the program draws to a close it reveals some evidence that Government are very aware that Drax is not as green as they want to tell us.

Drax: UK power station owner cuts down primary forests in Canada
The Drax power station in Yorkshire is a converted coal plant, which now produces 12% of the UK's renewable electricity.

It has already received £6bn in green energy subsidies. Burning wood is considered green, but it is controversial among environmentalists.

The 'green' row over the UK's largest renewable power plant
When it comes to the arcane world of climate accounting, biomass energy is classed as renewable based on the premise that trees grow back. So greenhouse gas emissions from trees are counted in the nation of land use rather than the place where they are burnt.

Yet, Mary Booth, founder of the environmental organisation Partnership for Policy Integrity, points out that "just because something is counted as zero because of an accounting convention does not mean it's carbon neutral".

The Green Energy Scandal Exposed - The Panorama Program

AiY(D)

Yeah, it's a sham.

I think I'd prefer it if Drax just went back to burning coal.

Tedx wrote:Yeah, it's a sham.

I think I'd prefer it if Drax just went back to burning coal.

Hi Ted,

Yes. This was mentioned in the program. The reality is that Drax is producing more Co2 than if it burned coal as the trees it is taking down will take decades to regrow and take up the carbon.

Slightly off-topic I know but we do, as a country, seem to have no effective regulation where it counts. As an example another serious issue being the amount of poo, used nappies and sanitary towels being illegally allowed into our rivers and seas.

It feels as if there's a theme of failing to regulate, especially where it matters.

Sorry I know that's slightly off-topic but the same seems to be true of Drax. It isn't doing what it tells us is its business model and we've paid £6bn in subsidies.

Poor show

AiY(D)

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:

Tedx wrote:Yeah, it's a sham.

I think I'd prefer it if Drax just went back to burning coal.

Hi Ted,

Yes. This was mentioned in the program. The reality is that Drax is producing more Co2 than if it burned coal as the trees it is taking down will take decades to regrow and take up the carbon.

Errr....while it may be releasing CO2 faster than it's been taken up by the replanted trees, and so isn't being renewable or net zero, how is it producing more CO2 than if it burned coal (which takes some 300-350million years to replace)?

mc2fool wrote:

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:Hi Ted,

Yes. This was mentioned in the program. The reality is that Drax is producing more Co2 than if it burned coal as the trees it is taking down will take decades to regrow and take up the carbon.

Errr....while it may be releasing CO2 faster than it's been taken up by the replanted trees, and so isn't being renewable or net zero, how is it producing more CO2 than if it burned coal (which takes some 300-350million years to replace)?

I looked at the possibility of using wood as a fuel to produce float glass, probably 40 years ago. At that time my recollection is that you needed a 100km2 tract of eucalyptus in Brazil, which you cropped in rotation on a 7 year cycle. The unknown was how efficient a producer gas plant would be if fired by wood, and what sort of flame temperature you could achieve. Oxygen might help.

TJH

tjh290633 wrote:I looked at the possibility of using wood as a fuel to produce float glass, probably 40 years ago. At that time my recollection is that you needed a 100km2 tract of eucalyptus in Brazil, which you cropped in rotation on a 7 year cycle. The unknown was how efficient a producer gas plant would be if fired by wood, and what sort of flame temperature you could achieve. Oxygen might help.

TJH

Did you work for Pilkingtons?

RC

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:...some evidence that Government are very aware that Drax is not as green as they want to tell us.

Well this is the same govt that had to be taken to court over its refusal to include incinerator emissions in national C02 calculations.
Lies, damned lies and governments.

V8

88V8 wrote:

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:...some evidence that Government are very aware that Drax is not as green as they want to tell us.

Well this is the same govt that had to be taken to court over its refusal to include incinerator emissions in national C02 calculations.
Lies, damned lies and governments.

V8

Biofuel Watch - April 2022
Per unit of electricity, biomass emits no less CO2 from smokestacks than burning coal does. Drax reported in its 2021 Annual report that its wood burning in Yorkshire emitted 13.42 million tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere. This makes Drax power station the UK’s single biggest source of carbon emissions.

Burning imported wood in Drax power plant ‘doesn’t make sense’, says Kwarteng - Aug 2022
One MP at the meeting told Kwarteng: “It can take 100 years to grow a tree but 100 seconds to combust it. So, unless we actually have a measure of how much CO2 is being released in the same period of time as is being sequestered by new growth, it seems to me ludicrous to say that this is carbon neutral.”

AiY(D)

Well here's the thing, someday we may be glad that Drax goes back to burning coal again and we may come to regret all those viable coal fired turbine halls, generator transformers, cooling towers and chimneys that were willfully destroyed in the Vale of York. They weren't even retained on a care and maintenance basis as a future energy security insurance policy.

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:Biofuel Watch - April 2022
Per unit of electricity, biomass emits no less CO2 from smokestacks than burning coal does. Drax reported in its 2021 Annual report that its wood burning in Yorkshire emitted 13.42 million tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere. This makes Drax power station the UK’s single biggest source of carbon emissions.

Ok, so the same amount of CO2 as coal, not more than. Unsurprising for a given unit of electricity, although depending on the coal it replaced it's likely to be less nasty, with the other stuff coal emits than just CO2. Drax always was the UK’s single biggest source of carbon emissions anyway.

ReformedCharacter wrote:

tjh290633 wrote:I looked at the possibility of using wood as a fuel to produce float glass, probably 40 years ago. At that time my recollection is that you needed a 100km2 tract of eucalyptus in Brazil, which you cropped in rotation on a 7 year cycle. The unknown was how efficient a producer gas plant would be if fired by wood, and what sort of flame temperature you could achieve. Oxygen might help.

TJH

Did you work for Pilkingtons?

RC

No, I worked for what was then Babcock Contractors. We built glass melting furnaces using technology from Toledo Engineering Co Inc, who are arguably the world's leading glas furnace designers.

TJH

tjh290633 wrote:I looked at the possibility of using wood as a fuel to produce float glass, probably 40 years ago. At that time my recollection is that you needed a 100km2 tract of eucalyptus in Brazil, which you cropped in rotation on a 7 year cycle.
TJH

It would be interesting (& I imagine shocking) to calculate Drax’s tree consumption on the same basis.

GrahamPlatt wrote:

tjh290633 wrote:I looked at the possibility of using wood as a fuel to produce float glass, probably 40 years ago. At that time my recollection is that you needed a 100km2 tract of eucalyptus in Brazil, which you cropped in rotation on a 7 year cycle.
TJH

It would be interesting (& I imagine shocking) to calculate Drax’s tree consumption on the same basis.

My recollection is that float glass needs about 7 MBtu per ton melted, and back then it would have been 500 tons/day.

Were you to melt electrically, using in glass electrodes, it would be less. I need to look up my old papers to be certain of the numbers.

TJH

tjh290633 wrote:

GrahamPlatt wrote:
It would be interesting (& I imagine shocking) to calculate Drax’s tree consumption on the same basis.

My recollection is that float glass needs about 7 MBtu per ton melted, and back then it would have been 500 tons/day.

Were you to melt electrically, using in glass electrodes, it would be less. I need to look up my old papers to be certain of the numbers.

TJH

Terry I can only say that I wish I had a memory as good as yours

Take care

AiY(D)

tjh290633 wrote:

ReformedCharacter wrote:Did you work for Pilkingtons?

RC

No, I worked for what was then Babcock Contractors. We built glass melting furnaces using technology from Toledo Engineering Co Inc, who are arguably the world's leading glas furnace designers.

TJH

Terry,

There's a huge glass manufacturing plant about 25 miles from me.

This may be of interest? Guardian Glass invests in Goole plant, UK
Guardian Glass invests in expanded capacity and energy-saving technology for its Goole plant

It seems on-topic too. The plant is only a few miles from Drax power station. My late Uncle worked on Drax when it was built.

Take care

AiY(D)

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:

tjh290633 wrote:No, I worked for what was then Babcock Contractors. We built glass melting furnaces using technology from Toledo Engineering Co Inc, who are arguably the world's leading glas furnace designers.

TJH

Terry,

There's a huge glass manufacturing plant about 25 miles from me.

This may be of interest? Guardian Glass invests in Goole plant, UK
Guardian Glass invests in expanded capacity and energy-saving technology for its Goole plant

It seems on-topic too. The plant is only a few miles from Drax power station. My late Uncle worked on Drax when it was built.

Take care

AiY(D)

I think that Guardian's furnace at Goole is a TECO design. Most, if not all, of theirs have been. I went round their first site in Carleton, Michigan when construction was underway and later when it was operational.

TJH