The Lemon Fool

“That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history.” - Aldous Huxley.

When I started watching this documentary I wasn't too impressed. However, not long into the program a startling revelation was made. Of the estimated 6m Jews killed in the Holocaust 3m were killed in the gas chambers. A significant number were also executed by firing squads.

The documentary focuses on the men who were responsible for pulling the trigger. When I heard that each man in these units could opt out and there would be no punishment I was a little surprised. When I heard that there are no records at all of any man who opted out ever receiving any punishment I was flabbergasted.

Why then did these men decide to accept the "request" made of them to execute Jewish men, women, and children. The documentary reveals how “ordinary men” became mass murderers.

Some of the reasons aren't what I expected to hear.

AiY(D)

The article below is elliptically addresses the 'ordinary men' question. I would not in normal circumstances post such a personal response, but the question posed continues to retain its awful poignancy into the human mind. The thin veneer of respectability can quickly vanish with multitudes as we see on a depressingly regular basis.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/gerdas-long-quest-for-the-truth-who-sent-my-family-to-their-deaths-2314971.html

Accompanied by her family, she returned 3 times in 5 years to Teterow in her 90s.

I should mention that there are a couple of very minor factual errors in the article and that my mother passed away some 5 years ago.

T7

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:“That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history.” - Aldous Huxley.

When I started watching this documentary I wasn't too impressed. However, not long into the program a startling revelation was made. Of the estimated 6m Jews killed in the Holocaust 3m were killed in the gas chambers. A significant number were also executed by firing squads.

The documentary focuses on the men who were responsible for pulling the trigger. When I heard that each man in these units could opt out and there would be no punishment I was a little surprised. When I heard that there are no records at all of any man who opted out ever receiving any punishment I was flabbergasted.

Why then did these men decide to accept the "request" made of them to execute Jewish men, women, and children. The documentary reveals how “ordinary men” became mass murderers.

Some of the reasons aren't what I expected to hear.

AiY(D)

I haven't watched the documentary. AFAIK one of the reasons for producing the gas chambers and gas vans was because of the traumatic affect that the mass killings were having on the men who were tasked with the executions. IIRC Himmler was the main protagonist in the development of mass killing systems for this reason and, no doubt, because it was efficient. Again, I haven't seen the documentary but the well known Milgram experiment throws some light on the inclinations of ordinary people to harm others:

The results of the Milgram experiment were shocking. Despite the learner's protests, the majority of participants continued to administer shocks to the maximum level, even when they believed that the shocks were causing serious harm.

https://www.structural-learning.com/post/stanley-milgram-experiment

RC

terminal7 wrote:The article below is elliptically addresses the 'ordinary men' question. I would not in normal circumstances post such a personal response, but the question posed continues to retain its awful poignancy into the human mind. The thin veneer of respectability can quickly vanish with multitudes as we see on a depressingly regular basis.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/gerdas-long-quest-for-the-truth-who-sent-my-family-to-their-deaths-2314971.html

Accompanied by her family, she returned 3 times in 5 years to Teterow in her 90s.

I should mention that there are a couple of very minor factual errors in the article and that my mother passed away some 5 years ago.

T7

Thanks for the link, greatly appreciated.

AiY(D)

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:“That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history.” - Aldous Huxley.

When I started watching this documentary I wasn't too impressed. However, not long into the program a startling revelation was made. Of the estimated 6m Jews killed in the Holocaust 3m were killed in the gas chambers. A significant number were also executed by firing squads.

The documentary focuses on the men who were responsible for pulling the trigger. When I heard that each man in these units could opt out and there would be no punishment I was a little surprised. When I heard that there are no records at all of any man who opted out ever receiving any punishment I was flabbergasted.

Why then did these men decide to accept the "request" made of them to execute Jewish men, women, and children. The documentary reveals how “ordinary men” became mass murderers.

Some of the reasons aren't what I expected to hear.

AiY(D)

ReformedCharacter wrote:I haven't watched the documentary. AFAIK one of the reasons for producing the gas chambers and gas vans was because of the traumatic affect that the mass killings were having on the men who were tasked with the executions. IIRC Himmler was the main protagonist in the development of mass killing systems for this reason and, no doubt, because it was efficient. Again, I haven't seen the documentary but the well-known Milgram experiment throws some light on the inclinations of ordinary people to harm others:

The results of the Milgram experiment were shocking. Despite the learner's protests, the majority of participants continued to administer shocks to the maximum level, even when they believed that the shocks were causing serious harm.

https://www.structural-learning.com/post/stanley-milgram-experiment

RC

I recall that experiment, now that you mention it, yes. It augments the documentary in as much as the documentary also explains how the "executioners" convinced themselves that "right" was on their side. One "executioner" chose to shoot only children. He had convinced himself that this was a positive action as the child’s parents were to be executed and the child would live an awful life without them. When the Nuremberg trials turned towards these men they displayed acts of victimisation saying that they had to live with the terrible thoughts of what they had done.

I realise it's not a documentary for everyone. However, and of great sadness, it does seem that elements of Russian society are capable of similar behaviours. There are reports of children being executed in Ukraine by Russian troops. In all honesty I have stayed away from this element of the war as I find it unbearable to digest.

AiY(D)

I recall that experiment, now that you mention it, yes. It augments the documentary in as much as the documentary also explains how the "executioners" convinced themselves that "right" was on their side. One "executioner" chose to shoot only children. He had convinced himself that this was a positive action as the child’s parents were to be executed and the child would live an awful life without them. When the Nuremberg trials turned towards these men they displayed acts of victimisation saying that they had to live with the terrible thoughts of what they had done.

I realise it's not a documentary for everyone. However, and of great sadness, it does seem that elements of Russian society are capable of similar behaviours. There are reports of children being executed in Ukraine by Russian troops. In all honesty I have stayed away from this element of the war as I find it unbearable to digest.

I read many years ago about how those murderers had already had over a decade of anti-Jewish propaganda shoved down their throats. When finally sent to carry out the executions, they were simply reminded that time passes very fast, and in ten years, that sweet little 8-year old will be an 18 year old partisan ready to slit their throats.

Steve

There was a film on TV recently that told the story of the 'sonderkommandos', the jews who were forced to do the dreadful work of sheperding and clearing the bodies of victims. The only 'dirty' work carried out by the Nazi's was the dropping of the gas canister. It is the most harrowing film I've ever seen. Someone here may remember it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkommando

I recall there was a scene in the excellent Conspiracy [2001] (with Kenneth Branagh playing Reinhard Heydrich) that did use evidence of the effect on ordinary soldiers presented by a high-ranking officer of Einsatzgruppen A. That film was heavily based on the one transcript of the Berlin Wannsee conference that survived and so endorses what the OP says. But it is now over 20 years since I watched Conspiracy (Note to self, a must re-watch). One problem with it for me is that it took me many, many years to listen to the sublime adagio of Schubert's string quintet again.

Eb