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Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 2nd, 2024, 11:22 am
by mc2fool
Pattie Boyd is auctioning off some (all?) of her memorabilia from her time with George Harrison and Eric Clapton and I thought folks here of a certain generation might find some of it intriguing and/or nostalgic.
There's an interesting and rather warm contemporary video monologue by Pattie (6m4s) and accompanying article at
https://www.christies.com/stories/highlights-from-the-pattie-boyd-collection-9e41b87a9ddf400e8eec0187d17ad463The auction listing itself is at
https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/pattie-boyd-collection/overview/3508It's mostly photographs and letters and some knick-knacks, although if anyone would like to have Clapton's hand on their mantelpiece...
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"
According to Pattie Boyd, when Eric Clapton was modelled for a Madame Tussauds waxwork in the late 1980s, the wax modeller made an additional wax cast of Clapton's hand for Pattie and Eric to keep as a memento. When they decided to separate not long afterwards, Eric signed and inscribed the waxwork To Nell, which was his nickname for Pattie. The wax sculpture was then cast in solid bronze for posterity, and the original waxwork was likely destroyed in the process."
https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/pattie-boyd-collection/eric-clapton-97/211934
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 2nd, 2024, 2:03 pm
by BullDog
I believe the original art work for the Derek and the Dominoes, Layla and assorted love songs album is up for sale. Part of the Pattie Boyd sale. Several million dollars on it's own? One for deep pockered bidders like Hard Rock cafe etc......?
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 2nd, 2024, 6:25 pm
by mc2fool
BullDog wrote:I believe the original art work for the Derek and the Dominoes, Layla and assorted love songs album is up for sale. Part of the Pattie Boyd sale. Several million dollars on it's own? One for deep pockered bidders like Hard Rock cafe etc......?
Lot 34. Christie's estimate: £40,000 - £60,000. How much it'll actually go for remains to be seen.
Pattie talks about it in the video, and in the essay in the lot description.
https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/pattie-boyd-collection/eric-clapton-derek-dominos-34/211875
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 2nd, 2024, 6:38 pm
by BullDog
mc2fool wrote:BullDog wrote:I believe the original art work for the Derek and the Dominoes, Layla and assorted love songs album is up for sale. Part of the Pattie Boyd sale. Several million dollars on it's own? One for deep pockered bidders like Hard Rock cafe etc......?
Lot 34. Christie's estimate: £40,000 - £60,000. How much it'll actually go for remains to be seen.
Pattie talks about it in the video, and in the essay in the lot description.
https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/pattie-boyd-collection/eric-clapton-derek-dominos-34/211875
Thanks, I would pay £60,000 for the original art work all day long. I am astonished the estimate is so low.
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 3rd, 2024, 1:01 pm
by terminal7
I assume that God will not be bidding.
It does strike me that the estimates are on the low side. Maybe Christies trying to 'encourage' bidders?
T7
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 3rd, 2024, 2:36 pm
by Mike4
terminal7 wrote:I assume that God will not be bidding.
It does strike me that the estimates are on the low side. Maybe Christies trying to 'encourage' bidders?
T7
I'm sure they are!
In much the same way as house actions usually offer a "Guide Price" to suck hopefuls into the auction room then the auctioneer kicks off the bidding by asking the room "Who will offer me the guide price of £xxxK?
Intensely annoying if you attended the auction thinking the guide price was a genuine estimate of the probable final sale price.
DAMHIK.
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 3rd, 2024, 10:14 pm
by servodude
Mike4 wrote:terminal7 wrote:I assume that God will not be bidding.
It does strike me that the estimates are on the low side. Maybe Christies trying to 'encourage' bidders?
T7
I'm sure they are!
In much the same way as house actions usually offer a "Guide Price" to suck hopefuls into the auction room then the auctioneer kicks off the bidding by asking the room "Who will offer me the guide price of £xxxK?
Intensely annoying if you attended the auction thinking the guide price was a genuine estimate of the probable final sale price.
DAMHIK.
Is there any requirement (or convention) that the guide price be based on previous sales?
This obviously becomes very difficult to do when the provenance is likely to overwhelm the valuation.
Going back a few years It certainly looked like the the valuations on David Gilmour's guitars were (for most of the items) where you would expect a nice condition (but owned by some random dude) example to land
- for an example
https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-6198098
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 4th, 2024, 6:37 am
by terminal7
servodude wrote:Mike4 wrote:
I'm sure they are!
In much the same way as house actions usually offer a "Guide Price" to suck hopefuls into the auction room then the auctioneer kicks off the bidding by asking the room "Who will offer me the guide price of £xxxK?
Intensely annoying if you attended the auction thinking the guide price was a genuine estimate of the probable final sale price.
DAMHIK.
Is there any requirement (or convention) that the guide price be based on previous sales?
This obviously becomes very difficult to do when the provenance is likely to overwhelm the valuation.
Going back a few years It certainly looked like the the valuations on David Gilmour's guitars were (for most of the items) where you would expect a nice condition (but owned by some random dude) example to land
- for an example
https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-6198098
Wow - the sales price of that lot and others were way out by a factor of 5/10 - maybe Roger Waters bought them?
T7
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 4th, 2024, 7:07 am
by servodude
terminal7 wrote:servodude wrote:Is there any requirement (or convention) that the guide price be based on previous sales?
This obviously becomes very difficult to do when the provenance is likely to overwhelm the valuation.
Going back a few years It certainly looked like the the valuations on David Gilmour's guitars were (for most of the items) where you would expect a nice condition (but owned by some random dude) example to land
- for an example
https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-6198098
Wow - the sales price of that lot and others were way out by a factor of 5/10 - maybe Roger Waters bought them?
T7
I'd hate to think of him smashing that Dan Armstrong for a laugh - it's bad enough that it went for 10 times what I bid
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 4th, 2024, 8:05 am
by mc2fool
servodude wrote:Mike4 wrote:I'm sure they are!
In much the same way as house actions usually offer a "Guide Price" to suck hopefuls into the auction room then the auctioneer kicks off the bidding by asking the room "Who will offer me the guide price of £xxxK?
Intensely annoying if you attended the auction thinking the guide price was a genuine estimate of the probable final sale price.
DAMHIK.
Is there any requirement (or convention) that the guide price be based on previous sales?
This obviously becomes very difficult to do when the provenance is likely to overwhelm the valuation.
Going back a few years It certainly looked like the the valuations on David Gilmour's guitars were (for most of the items) where you would expect a nice condition (but owned by some random dude) example to land
- for an example
https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-6198098
Previous sales, along with the current state of the market, will be factors that go into the valuation, and that's (probably) more straightforward when valuing, say, a Monet, where they can look at how much similar Monets in similar condition have gone for recently.
But while pop memorabilia comes up occasionally, there haven't been any previous sales of Pattie Boyd's stuff and, as you say, the value of the cachet of the provenance is difficult to guess at.
As you mentioned guitars, Mark Knopfler recently flogged off his guitar collection, which went for gobsmacking amounts...
https://www.christies.com/auction/aucti ... price_descCelebrity has its value. For a different example take works by Stephen Ward, of Profumo affair fame. Mostly the estimate has been around right, until it gets to a saucy postcard sized drawing of Mandy Rice Davies ...
https://www.christies.com/en/search?ent ... =sold_lots
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 4th, 2024, 8:36 am
by servodude
mc2fool wrote:As you mentioned guitars, Mark Knopfler recently flogged off his guitar collection, which went for gobsmacking amounts...
I had a quick look through when it was announced but there wasn't anything I would have taken a punt on.
The prices they got are all over the shop; a 1960 ES 335 going for just over top estimate... the same price as a 2005 version at over 20 times its top estimate.
Either someone made a mistake or got very carried away (or both!)
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 5th, 2024, 8:28 pm
by terminal7
. . now auctioneers cannot even get the guide price for a shirt in the broad ball park!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-68415018T7
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 5th, 2024, 8:33 pm
by Lootman
Mike4 wrote:terminal7 wrote:I assume that God will not be bidding. It does strike me that the estimates are on the low side. Maybe Christies trying to 'encourage' bidders?
'm sure they are!
In much the same way as house actions usually offer a "Guide Price" to suck hopefuls into the auction room then the auctioneer kicks off the bidding by asking the room "Who will offer me the guide price of £xxxK?
Intensely annoying if you attended the auction thinking the guide price was a genuine estimate of the probable final sale price.
DAMHIK.
Have not been to any kind of auction in 15 years. And one of my sons tells me that many of them are online now. But isn't another function of the guide price to do with whether the seller has to accept a bid?
So that an offer above the guide price is binding on the seller but an offer below it is not.
As such the seller has an influence on the guide price. It is the minimum he will accept regardless of valuation.
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 5th, 2024, 8:47 pm
by GrahamPlatt
Lootman wrote:
As such the seller has an influence on the guide price. It is the minimum she will accept regardless of valuation.
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 5th, 2024, 9:05 pm
by mc2fool
It's not a guide price, it's an estimate, and a mere twice over the high estimate isn't too wildly off for the like.
Lootman wrote:Have not been to any kind of auction in 15 years. And one of my sons tells me that many of them are online now. But isn't another function of the guide price to do with whether the seller has to accept a bid?
So that an offer above the guide price is binding on the seller but an offer below it is not.
As such the seller has an influence on the guide price. It is the minimum he will accept regardless of valuation.
As I say, it's an estimate, not a guide price, and the minimum the seller will accept is called the reserve and (at most auction houses) isn't revealed. It is, however, never higher than the lower estimate.
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 5th, 2024, 9:07 pm
by Mike4
Lootman wrote:Mike4 wrote:'m sure they are!
In much the same way as house actions usually offer a "Guide Price" to suck hopefuls into the auction room then the auctioneer kicks off the bidding by asking the room "Who will offer me the guide price of £xxxK?
Intensely annoying if you attended the auction thinking the guide price was a genuine estimate of the probable final sale price.
DAMHIK.
Have not been to any kind of auction in 15 years. And one of my sons tells me that many of them are online now. But isn't another function of the guide price to do with whether the seller has to accept a bid?
So that an offer above the guide price is binding on the seller but an offer below it is not.
As such the seller has an influence on the guide price. It is the minimum he will accept regardless of valuation.
No, that's the "Reserve" price. The auctioneer needs to clear it to get get a contract and consequently collect their selling commission. The "Guide Price" is just a non-binding informal indication in the sales particulars of what the auctioneer thinks it might sell for, therefore a great tool for manipulating the room.
Or that is how it used to be. I've not been to an auction for 20 years either!
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 5th, 2024, 10:14 pm
by mc2fool
Mike4 wrote:The "Guide Price" is just a non-binding informal indication in the sales particulars of what the auctioneer thinks it might sell for, therefore a great tool for manipulating the room.
Or that is how it used to be. I've not been to an auction for 20 years either!
"Guide price" is what estate agents list (inter alia) for houses they're marketing. Auction houses list "estimates". One could say they mean much the same but all professions like to have their own terminology...
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 19th, 2024, 2:16 pm
by mc2fool
BullDog wrote:Thanks, I would pay £60,000 for the original art work all day long. I am astonished the estimate is so low.
With three days to go the current bid is at £130,000. Shall we start a pool on how much it'll finally go for?
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 19th, 2024, 3:27 pm
by bungeejumper
mc2fool wrote:Mike4 wrote:The "Guide Price" is just a non-binding informal indication in the sales particulars of what the auctioneer thinks it might sell for, therefore a great tool for manipulating the room.
Or that is how it used to be. I've not been to an auction for 20 years either!
"Guide price" is what estate agents list (inter alia) for houses they're marketing. Auction houses list "estimates". One could say they mean much the same but all professions like to have their own terminology...
Maybe that's a Scottish usage? At property auctions down here in the deep south west, the guide price is simply what the auctioneer thinks would be an acceptable minimum, and it'll be a bit higher than the reserve price (the very lowest that the vendor says he would be prepared to accept). We have a house coming up for auction soon - the difference between having four bidders on the day, and having just two, is stomach-churning.
The reserve price itself is often a closely guarded secret! I've been at auctions where the bidding hasn't reached the reserve price, whereupon the auctioneer might inform the room that the property will be withdrawn if bidding doesn't improve. He might invite private bids after the auction for the lot is failed and finished, or then again he might not.
Art auction houses do have their own patter - they are, after all, selling to online bidders from every foreign culture, so they stick to New York rules. We get a lot of rock stuff at our local musical auctions here in Wiltshire - I can recall guitars from Clapton, Hendrix and Knopfler going wildly above the guide price, because that's what fame does to celebrity stuff. And even more for Elton John's pianos.
But interest was sparse when John Entwistle's estate (the Who's bassist) auctioned off his huge collection of brass instruments. Too many lots, too few people thinking of him as a brass player.
Celebrity isn't everything.
BJ
Re: Pattie Boyd
Posted: March 19th, 2024, 4:02 pm
by mc2fool
bungeejumper wrote:mc2fool wrote:"Guide price" is what estate agents list (inter alia) for houses they're marketing. Auction houses list "estimates". One could say they mean much the same but all professions like to have their own terminology...
Maybe that's a Scottish usage?
Not sure which you are thinking is Scottish usage but here in London all of the big four auction houses (Christies, Sothebys, Bonhams & Phillips) list lots with
estimates and estate agents (often) list properties with
guide prices (or OIEO or OIRO or just a price). I've never seen it be the other way round for either.
I dunno about property auctions: Christies & Sothebys real estate sales seem to just list a single price and don't seem to be auctions anyway. (Note, the estate agent called Christies is not related to the auction house of that name).