Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to gpadsa,Steffers0,lansdown,Wasron,jfgw, for Donating to support the site

I have sold my utility shares

including Budgets
gryffron
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3644
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:00 am
Has thanked: 565 times
Been thanked: 1616 times

Re: I have sold my utility shares

#527617

Postby gryffron » September 5th, 2022, 1:00 pm

Dod101 wrote:I wish you no illwill but I am glad that you are to be deprived of some of the windfall profit from your solar panels.

They're not in profit yet. Still haven't repaid the capital.

And that of course is the problem. Whilst I have planned for their 25 year lifetime, Govt doesn't think far enough ahead. Short term thinking is what makes privatisation of supply look attractive. Until you get a spike in prices to reward the investors, and then suddenly we're all "evil profiteering capitalists". Labour's thinking too, not just yours.

Gryff

Dod101
The full Lemon
Posts: 16629
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 4343 times
Been thanked: 7536 times

Re: I have sold my utility shares

#527623

Postby Dod101 » September 5th, 2022, 1:15 pm

gryffron wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I wish you no illwill but I am glad that you are to be deprived of some of the windfall profit from your solar panels.

They're not in profit yet. Still haven't repaid the capital.

And that of course is the problem. Whilst I have planned for their 25 year lifetime, Govt doesn't think far enough ahead. Short term thinking is what makes privatisation of supply look attractive. Until you get a spike in prices to reward the investors, and then suddenly we're all "evil profiteering capitalists". Labour's thinking too, not just yours.

Gryff


I can assure you that I do not think of you as an evil profiteering capitalist, what on earth gave you that idea? I just do not think that you should be rewarded for the huge and unbudgeted increase in energy costs, or at least I do not think that whoever is buying your energy should be forced to pay you and others like you, 'way over the expected cost simply because of the unexpected surge in energy prices. You are surely in profit if you are getting a decent return on your original investment without expecting your full return of capital. Over their (limited I assume) lifetime it is not unreasonable that you should be able to recover your outlay but that is a matter for you when you make the investment in the first place.

Dod

Bubblesofearth
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1116
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:32 am
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 453 times

Re: I have sold my utility shares

#528090

Postby Bubblesofearth » September 6th, 2022, 9:15 pm

gryffron wrote: Even my 2011 solar panels are going to be earning less than the market rate by October.

Gryff


It doesn't matter if you use the electricity yourself. If at times you generate more than you can use then can you store it and/or switch to some more electric appliances, electric heating, car etc?

BoE

Lanark
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1343
Joined: March 27th, 2017, 11:41 am
Has thanked: 601 times
Been thanked: 588 times

Re: I have sold my utility shares

#528108

Postby Lanark » September 6th, 2022, 10:53 pm

There are rumours in the press that Truss may introduce a 2500 price cap (£208 per month) with the difference between that and the market price being lent by the govt to the energy companies to be added to future bills and repaid over the next 15 years, a kind of mortgage to pay your energy bill.

Not clear yet whether this will be worked out individually or we will all just be surcharged to pay other peoples bills?

The problem with all these fixes is they ignore the central issue of supply and demand being out of balance, if everyone is handed enough to buy at current prices then those prices will just rise further.

We either have a winter where the poorest are unable to turn the heating on, thus reducing demand.
or we have rolling power cuts for everyone, reducing demand.

As is so typical the UK press are focussed on the wrong thing, the energy price, when what we should be concerned with is that there isn't enough gas to go around.

richfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3530
Joined: November 19th, 2016, 2:02 pm
Has thanked: 1208 times
Been thanked: 1294 times

Re: I have sold my utility shares

#528118

Postby richfool » September 7th, 2022, 1:22 am

Yep. Increase supply, = prices should fall.

In the meantime, I haven't sold my EGL - Ecofin Global Utilities & Infrastructure.

GoSeigen
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4442
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:14 pm
Has thanked: 1615 times
Been thanked: 1607 times

Re: I have sold my utility shares

#528126

Postby GoSeigen » September 7th, 2022, 7:20 am

Lanark wrote:There are rumours in the press that Truss may introduce a 2500 price cap (£208 per month) with the difference between that and the market price being lent by the govt to the energy companies to be added to future bills and repaid over the next 15 years, a kind of mortgage to pay your energy bill.

Not clear yet whether this will be worked out individually or we will all just be surcharged to pay other peoples bills?

The problem with all these fixes is they ignore the central issue of supply and demand being out of balance, if everyone is handed enough to buy at current prices then those prices will just rise further.

We either have a winter where the poorest are unable to turn the heating on, thus reducing demand.
or we have rolling power cuts for everyone, reducing demand.

As is so typical the UK press are focussed on the wrong thing, the energy price, when what we should be concerned with is that there isn't enough gas to go around.


Agree it's an insane policy, to be added to all those preceding. Why should everyone benefit from our government's largesse? If any action is taken to "help" people then the ones who should be helped are those who need it most.

GS

Dod101
The full Lemon
Posts: 16629
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 4343 times
Been thanked: 7536 times

Re: I have sold my utility shares

#528136

Postby Dod101 » September 7th, 2022, 7:58 am

GoSeigen wrote:
Lanark wrote:There are rumours in the press that Truss may introduce a 2500 price cap (£208 per month) with the difference between that and the market price being lent by the govt to the energy companies to be added to future bills and repaid over the next 15 years, a kind of mortgage to pay your energy bill.

Not clear yet whether this will be worked out individually or we will all just be surcharged to pay other peoples bills?

The problem with all these fixes is they ignore the central issue of supply and demand being out of balance, if everyone is handed enough to buy at current prices then those prices will just rise further.

We either have a winter where the poorest are unable to turn the heating on, thus reducing demand.
or we have rolling power cuts for everyone, reducing demand.

As is so typical the UK press are focussed on the wrong thing, the energy price, when what we should be concerned with is that there isn't enough gas to go around.


Agree it's an insane policy, to be added to all those preceding. Why should everyone benefit from our government's largesse? If any action is taken to "help" people then the ones who should be helped are those who need it most.

GS


Well these no much doubt that 'something' has to be done and using the rather blunt instrument that they seem to be proposing should I read somewhere, help reduce the inflation rate as well so it might, might, have a two pronged benefit. However I hate the idea of mortgaging ourselves a long way into the future, especially for a consumer item like fuel.

Dod

scotview
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1510
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 9:00 am
Has thanked: 608 times
Been thanked: 931 times

Re: I have sold my utility shares

#528137

Postby scotview » September 7th, 2022, 8:11 am

Dod101 wrote: However I hate the idea of mortgaging ourselves a long way into the future, especially for a consumer item like fuel.

Dod


A couple of things.

1 Utility dividends are going to be subsidised to the tune of say 90% by the government, hence the taxpayer. Is that ethical. moral or honest?

2 We are beginning to see energy price discovery. Energy prices will be the same or possibly higher next year and the year after that. Especially if the government pursue the green agenda which is still getting mentioned as the solution by nearly 98% of MPs.

£100/150 billion energy subsidy, mind blowing.

Sorry for the negative slant.

Dod101
The full Lemon
Posts: 16629
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 4343 times
Been thanked: 7536 times

Re: I have sold my utility shares

#528140

Postby Dod101 » September 7th, 2022, 8:21 am

scotview wrote:
Dod101 wrote: However I hate the idea of mortgaging ourselves a long way into the future, especially for a consumer item like fuel.

Dod


A couple of things.

1 Utility dividends are going to be subsidised to the tune of say 90% by the government, hence the taxpayer. Is that ethical. moral or honest?

2 We are beginning to see energy price discovery. Energy prices will be the same or possibly higher next year and the year after that. Especially if the government pursue the green agenda which is still getting mentioned as the solution by nearly 98% of MPs.

£100/150 billion energy subsidy, mind blowing.

Sorry for the negative slant.


I guess we are getting ahead of ourselves until we see the detailed plans and can then then assess the likely impact in all sorts of areas. I have no comments for the moment.

Dod

Arborbridge
The full Lemon
Posts: 10443
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 3647 times
Been thanked: 5282 times

Re: I have sold my utility shares

#528143

Postby Arborbridge » September 7th, 2022, 8:25 am

Nationalisation is a huge step and will solve nothing much. We'll be back in the same old problem that governments used to have in raising capital to invest in industries, which is why someone came up with the PFI - that proved controversial too. Quite apart from that, we having trouble enough raising capital to fight Covid, Energy bills, the Russian games - without taking on nationalisation. Think of the endless arguments there would be: I heard this morning that to fix the sewage into the sea outfall problem alone might cost £600 billion - even half that would be a big amount, and that is only one potential demand for capital from nationalisation.

I'm not second guessing politicians - just keep taking the diversity pills.


Arb.

absolutezero
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1510
Joined: November 17th, 2016, 8:17 pm
Has thanked: 544 times
Been thanked: 653 times

Re: I have sold my utility shares

#528217

Postby absolutezero » September 7th, 2022, 12:22 pm

Arborbridge wrote:Nationalisation is a huge step and will solve nothing much. We'll be back in the same old problem that governments used to have in raising capital to invest in industries, which is why someone came up with the PFI - that proved controversial too. Quite apart from that, we having trouble enough raising capital to fight Covid, Energy bills, the Russian games - without taking on nationalisation. Think of the endless arguments there would be: I heard this morning that to fix the sewage into the sea outfall problem alone might cost £600 billion - even half that would be a big amount, and that is only one potential demand for capital from nationalisation.

I'm not second guessing politicians - just keep taking the diversity pills.


Arb.

Nationalisation solves nothing.
That's before we consider the message it sends to international investors. See also windfall taxes. "The UK is closed to business."

The simple question to ask is this:
- Where do energy companies get the gas? They bid and buy on the international market.
- Where would a nationalised company get the gas? They would have to bid and buy on the international market.

ursaminortaur
Lemon Half
Posts: 7102
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:26 pm
Has thanked: 458 times
Been thanked: 1771 times

Re: I have sold my utility shares

#528230

Postby ursaminortaur » September 7th, 2022, 1:13 pm

Arborbridge wrote:Nationalisation is a huge step and will solve nothing much. We'll be back in the same old problem that governments used to have in raising capital to invest in industries, which is why someone came up with the PFI - that proved controversial too. Quite apart from that, we having trouble enough raising capital to fight Covid, Energy bills, the Russian games - without taking on nationalisation. Think of the endless arguments there would be: I heard this morning that to fix the sewage into the sea outfall problem alone might cost £600 billion - even half that would be a big amount, and that is only one potential demand for capital from nationalisation.

I'm not second guessing politicians - just keep taking the diversity pills.


Arb.


On the otherhand the way that the water companies have avoided fixing the leak problem preferring to sweat their assets so as to get greater profits as well as allowing all these outfalls of sewage into the sea shows that privatisation solved nothing.

CryptoPlankton
Lemon Slice
Posts: 789
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:12 pm
Has thanked: 1555 times
Been thanked: 876 times

Re: I have sold my utility shares

#528278

Postby CryptoPlankton » September 7th, 2022, 3:57 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:Nationalisation is a huge step and will solve nothing much. We'll be back in the same old problem that governments used to have in raising capital to invest in industries, which is why someone came up with the PFI - that proved controversial too. Quite apart from that, we having trouble enough raising capital to fight Covid, Energy bills, the Russian games - without taking on nationalisation. Think of the endless arguments there would be: I heard this morning that to fix the sewage into the sea outfall problem alone might cost £600 billion - even half that would be a big amount, and that is only one potential demand for capital from nationalisation.

I'm not second guessing politicians - just keep taking the diversity pills.


Arb.


On the otherhand the way that the water companies have avoided fixing the leak problem preferring to sweat their assets so as to get greater profits as well as allowing all these outfalls of sewage into the sea shows that privatisation solved nothing.


I started working in the water industry shortly after privatisation and saw major improvements in all areas: treatment, leakages, pollution, the list goes on. Since I've left (I'm not saying it was all down to me!) it is clear that this early flow of investment and improvement has slowed considerably, but I have no doubt that things are in a far better state than if the industry had been left limping along as before. However, whether private and regulated or nationalised, I think the main problem for the politicians is the general public's perception of drinking water and sewage disposal as a basic right, without real consideration of what is involved. For an average daily cost of £1.12, a household expects to get enough clean water to drink, cook, wash themselves, clean dishes and clothes, flush the toilet several times, water the garden, and more. They also expect to get all their wastewater taken away and dealt with elsewhere. This entails energy to abstract the raw water, energy and chemicals to treat it, energy and chemicals to monitor its quality, energy to pump it into the distribution system, then energy and chemicals to treat and dewater the sewage and dispose of the sludge. It also obviously requires maintenance of all the infrastructure and, of course, all these processes require human input with varying degrees of training.

So, rather than fret over whether the industry should be renationalised, I think the first step should be to try to nurture an understanding that water is a valuable commodity and, at considerably < 1p/litre, it is really quite seriously underpriced. Yes, we should invest in improving the infrastructure to prevent leaks and untreated sewage discharges, but neither a privatised nor nationalised industry will be able to fully achieve what is being demanded until the people demanding it understand (and accept) the true costs.

Lanark
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1343
Joined: March 27th, 2017, 11:41 am
Has thanked: 601 times
Been thanked: 588 times

Re: I have sold my utility shares

#528391

Postby Lanark » September 7th, 2022, 10:03 pm

Privatisation happened at a time when a lot of new investment was going to be needed to meet european water quality standards.

Scotland mostly escaped privatisation, Scottish Water a publicly owned utility still has 99% of the market and in 2021-22 the average charge in Scotland is £375, compared to £408 in England and Wales.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/s ... 07692.html

Scottish Water is publicly run and 67% of its rivers are in good health.
NONE of England’s rivers and water bodies are in good health
https://www.brexitspotlight.org/scottis ... incidence/

Now there may be other reasons which explain some of the differences, but the idea that 'Privatisation is always better' is looking a little shaky.

CryptoPlankton
Lemon Slice
Posts: 789
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:12 pm
Has thanked: 1555 times
Been thanked: 876 times

Re: I have sold my utility shares

#528421

Postby CryptoPlankton » September 7th, 2022, 11:26 pm

Lanark wrote:Privatisation happened at a time when a lot of new investment was going to be needed to meet european water quality standards.

Scotland mostly escaped privatisation, Scottish Water a publicly owned utility still has 99% of the market and in 2021-22 the average charge in Scotland is £375, compared to £408 in England and Wales.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/s ... 07692.html

Scottish Water is publicly run and 67% of its rivers are in good health.
NONE of England’s rivers and water bodies are in good health
https://www.brexitspotlight.org/scottis ... incidence/

Now there may be other reasons which explain some of the differences, but the idea that 'Privatisation is always better' is looking a little shaky.

I'm not sure anyone has actually suggested that. Considering it has one sixth the population density of England, and far more undeveloped 'wilderness', Scotland should find it easier to maintain good environmental standards. However, it does seem to suffer badly from the same issues with storm overflows, as illustrated in this rather damning report:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58040852

As the article explains, with only 3% having to be monitored (and defunding of regulators leaving incidents to be self-reported), the full extent of the problem is anyone's guess. In any event, it seems clear that, whether privatised or nationalised, the water industry needs significantly more investment - and there is ultimately only one source for that...


Return to “The Economy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests