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It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

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ursaminortaur
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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#629717

Postby ursaminortaur » November 24th, 2023, 2:52 pm

Lootman wrote:
ReformedCharacter wrote:Technically minded friends connecting their parents' phones with an acoustic coupler to use bulletin boards, must have been the early 80's. Online banking, I think Bank of Scotland were early providers, which is why I now have a BoS account, late 80's. At work, an Amstrad PC clone with 'integrated software' (Smartware) which included comms. Used with a 1200 bps modem and a subscription to a service (I've forgotten the name, unfortunately) which provided a gateway to other services, such as sending text to a fax. I used one service to do typesetting, read manual and select font, spacing etc. and 'upload' to provider. The high quality output was returned by post and one hoped one hadn't made a formatting error because you would only know when you opened the post :) That must have been late 80's.

I started using the internet in 1996.

The origins of the internet might have been in the government/military but it only became usable by the average person with the advent of stuff developed by the private sector. So for example Netscape, Amazon, Google and various email providers can all be traced back to the mid-1990s. And by the late 1990s we had a full-on dotcom boom and bubble.

So unless you were a techie, the internet started with an explosion of private sector companies in the mid-1990s making it usable and valuable to the average non-techie.


Yes, which is why a lot of younger people refer to the internet when they really mean the world wide web since they had never come across it before the advent of all those commercial websites.

As to Netscape it owes its existence to the NCSA and the University of Illinois. The NCSA and the University of Illinois developed the Mosaic web browser before those staff left to setup the commercial company which became Netscape.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(web_browser)

Mosaic was developed at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications (NCSA)[8] at the University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign beginning in late 1992. NCSA released it in 1993,[10] and officially discontinued development and support on January 7, 1997.[11]
.
.
.
Marc Andreessen, the leader of the team that developed Mosaic, left NCSA and, with James H. Clark, one of the founders of Silicon Graphics, Inc. (SGI), and four other former students and staff of the University of Illinois, started Mosaic Communications Corporation. Mosaic Communications eventually became Netscape Communications Corporation, producing Netscape Navigator. Mosaic's popularity as a separate browser began to decrease after the 1994 release of Netscape Navigator, the relevance of which was noted in The HTML Sourcebook: The Complete Guide to HTML: "Netscape Communications has designed an all-new WWW browser Netscape, that has significant enhancements over the original Mosaic program."[19]: 332


Indeed many of these commercial internet companies started out as research projects at universities

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Google

Google has its origins in "BackRub", a research project that was begun in 1996 by Larry Page and Sergey Brin when they were both PhD students at Stanford University in Stanford, California.[2] The project initially involved an unofficial "third founder", Scott Hassan, the lead programmer who wrote much of the code for the original Google Search engine, but he left before Google was officially founded as a company;[3][4] Hassan went on to pursue a career in robotics and founded the company Willow Garage in 2006.[5][6] Craig Nevill-Manning was also invited to join Google at its formation but declined and then joined a little later on.[7]

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631294

Postby ElCid » December 2nd, 2023, 7:03 pm

I am a bit late to this discussion, but having been an electronics engineer from the early seventies, I was always under the impression that the World Wide Web (www) was the invention of Tim Berners-Lee an Englishman working at CERN on the Franco-Swiss border. It was Berners-Lee that advocated the use of the URL etc. In the beginning that resulted in various scientific networks (eg. Janet in the UK) where scientists exchanged their thoughts. The US Defence funded network, DARPA, became prevalent and many scientists exchanged their ideas over this network which became the first Internet. Tim Berners-Lee may still be alive but he must be one of the most unrecognised inventors around.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631299

Postby XFool » December 2nd, 2023, 7:23 pm

ElCid wrote:I am a bit late to this discussion, but having been an electronics engineer from the early seventies, I was always under the impression that the World Wide Web (www) was the invention of Tim Berners-Lee an Englishman working at CERN on the Franco-Swiss border. It was Berners-Lee that advocated the use of the URL etc. In the beginning that resulted in various scientific networks (eg. Janet in the UK) where scientists exchanged their thoughts.

Janet was simply the UK academic network (Joint Academic Network) originally running on X25(?) network protocols, not TCP/IP. At least until it converted to a native TCP/IP native network. In the meantime, TCP/IP communications (e.g. to and from the US) were tunnelled inside x25 protocol packages in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JANET#JIPS

I'd say the WWW and Mosaic (see above) came along shortly after this had happened, at least in the UK. One of the first big things I remember being on the WWW was the Shoemaker–Levy 9 comet collision with Jupiter in 1994. Before that is was things like watching coffee brewing pots in Cambridge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_Room_coffee_pot

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631500

Postby ursaminortaur » December 3rd, 2023, 9:55 pm

ElCid wrote:I am a bit late to this discussion, but having been an electronics engineer from the early seventies, I was always under the impression that the World Wide Web (www) was the invention of Tim Berners-Lee an Englishman working at CERN on the Franco-Swiss border. It was Berners-Lee that advocated the use of the URL etc. In the beginning that resulted in various scientific networks (eg. Janet in the UK) where scientists exchanged their thoughts. The US Defence funded network, DARPA, became prevalent and many scientists exchanged their ideas over this network which became the first Internet. Tim Berners-Lee may still be alive but he must be one of the most unrecognised inventors around.


Yes, Tim Berners-Lee created the web and is still alive.

https://webfoundation.org/about/vision/history-of-the-web/

In March 1989, Tim laid out his vision for what would become the web in a document called “Information Management: A Proposal”. Believe it or not, Tim’s initial proposal was not immediately accepted. In fact, his boss at the time, Mike Sendall, noted the words “Vague but exciting” on the cover. The web was never an official CERN project, but Mike managed to give Tim time to work on it in September 1990. He began work using a NeXT computer, one of Steve Jobs’ early products.

By October of 1990, Tim had written the three fundamental technologies that remain the foundation of today’s web (and which you may have seen appear on parts of your web browser):

* HTML: HyperText Markup Language. The markup (formatting) language for the web.

* URI: Uniform Resource Identifier. A kind of “address” that is unique and used to identify to each resource on the web. It is also commonly called a URL.

* HTTP: Hypertext Transfer Protocol. Allows for the retrieval of linked resources from across the web.

Tim also wrote the first web page editor/browser (“WorldWideWeb.app”) and the first web server (“httpd“). By the end of 1990, the first web page was served on the open internet, and in 1991, people outside of CERN were invited to join this new web community.

As the web began to grow, Tim realised that its true potential would only be unleashed if anyone, anywhere could use it without paying a fee or having to ask for permission.

He explains: “Had the technology been proprietary, and in my total control, it would probably not have taken off. You can’t propose that something be a universal space and at the same time keep control of it.”

So, Tim and others advocated to ensure that CERN would agree to make the underlying code available on a royalty-free basis, forever. This decision was announced in April 1993, and sparked a global wave of creativity, collaboration and innovation never seen before. In 2003, the companies developing new web standards committed to a Royalty Free Policy for their work. In 2014, the year we celebrated the web’s 25th birthday, almost two in five people around the world were using it.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee

The UK's Joint Academic Network ( JANET ) grew out of a number of preceding networks which had been setup from the 1960s onwards. These networks were joined together and then standardized as an X.25 network using the Colour Book protocols with JANET going live in 1984. The JANET network then switched to using TCP/IP in the early 1990s.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JANET

Janet developed out of academic networks built in Britain since the late 1960s. Planning for the first regional network, South West Universities Computer Network (SWUCN), centred on Bristol began in 1967 and work started in 1969.[8][9] A number of national computer facilities serving the Science Research Council (SRC) community developed in the early 1970s, each with their own star network (ULCC London, UMRCC Manchester, Rutherford Appleton Laboratory).[8] Other regional networks followed in the mid-late 1970s around Edinburgh (RCOnet), London (METROnet), the Midlands (MIDnet), and Newcastle (NUMAC - the Northern Universities Multiple Access Computer[10]) among others such as Yorkshire and the South East.[8] These groups of institutions pooled resources to provide better computing facilities than could be afforded individually. The star networks developed into distributed computer networks but each was based on one manufacturer's standards and were mutually incompatible and overlapping.[8][11][12]

JANET

In the early 1980s a standardisation and interconnection effort started, hosted on an expansion of the SERCnet X.25 research network.[13][14][15] The JANET effort was based on the Coloured Book protocols developed by the British academic community, which provided the first complete X.25 standard,[16][17] and gave the UK "several years lead over other countries".[18] The naming scheme, JANET NRS, established "UK" as the top-level domain. When the Internet's Domain Name System adopted the ISO standard for country code top-level domains later in 1984, the UK had a pre-existing national standard which was retained as the .uk Internet country-code top level domain for the United Kingdom.[19][20][21]

JANET went live on 1 April 1984,[2] two years before the NSFNET initiated operations in the United States.[13] It hosted about 50 sites with line speeds of 9.6 kbit/s. In the mid-80s the backbone was upgraded to 2 Mbit/s, with 64 kbit/s access links. JANET connected to NSFNET in 1989.[22][23]

JIPS

Planning began in January 1991 for the JANET Internet Protocol Service (JIPS).[18] It was set up as a pilot project in March 1991 to host Internet Protocol (IP) traffic on the existing network.[24] Within eight months the IP traffic had exceeded the levels of X.25 traffic, and the IP support became official in November.[8]

JANET became, primarily, a high-speed IP network. A further upgrade in the early 1990s took the backbone to 8 Mbit/s and the access links to 2 Mbit/s, making Janet the fastest X.25 network in the world.[citation needed]

There had been some talk of moving Janet to OSI protocols in the 1990s, but changes in the networking world meant this never happened. The X.25 service was closed in August 1997.[25]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloured_Book_protocols

In the mid-1970s, the British Post Office Telecommunications division (BPO-T) worked with the academic community in the United Kingdom and the computer industry to develop a set of standards to enable interoperability among different computer systems based on the X.25 protocol suite for packet-switched wide area network (WAN) communication. First defined in 1975,[1] the standards evolved through experience developing protocols for the NPL network in the late 1960s and the Experimental Packet Switched Service in the early 1970s.[2][3][4][5][6]

The Coloured Book protocols were used on SERCnet from 1980,[7] and SWUCN from 1982,[8] both of which became part of the JANET academic network from 1984.[9][10] The protocols were influential in the development of computer networks, particularly in the UK, gained some acceptance internationally as the first complete X.25 standard,[1][11] and gave the UK "several years lead over other countries".[12]

From late 1991, Internet protocols were adopted on the Janet network instead; they were operated simultaneously for a while, until X.25 support was phased out entirely in August 1997.[13][14]

Protocols

The standards were defined in several documents, each addressing different aspects of computer network communication. They were identified by the colour of the cover

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631503

Postby Lootman » December 3rd, 2023, 9:59 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:Yes, Tim Berners-Lee created the web and is still alive.

And in the long-standing British tradition, he barely made any money out of it.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631506

Postby CliffEdge » December 3rd, 2023, 10:17 pm

scotview wrote:I think the UK needs a hard reset. We have a lot of unresolved issues but we also have a lot of potential.

We need to get solutions to :

Net Zero, including a workable, secure, energy policy.

Illegal immigration and immigration in general, in the face of pending massive global movement of peoples.

Firm up our National identity.

Quality healthcare at the right price, whither the NHS.

Our kids future, quality UNI courses and good, technical apprenticeships.

Exploit our Scientific excellence.

Defend our natural heritage in woodland, moorland, mountains and rivers.

Address the changing demographic, look after our old and encourage old style, nuclear families.

Have mothers stay at home to look after our kids. Reverse our current maternal work ethic.


This kind of nonsense is what we've come to post Brexit.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631510

Postby ursaminortaur » December 3rd, 2023, 10:31 pm

Lootman wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:Yes, Tim Berners-Lee created the web and is still alive.

And in the long-standing British tradition, he barely made any money out of it.


He decided that it should be a public good and released the protocols etc into the public domain. If instead he and CERN had patented everything and charged anyone who created a browser or website then it is quite likely that , although he might have made a bit initially, the web would have died in its infancy and we would have had to wait for someone else to come up with a free variant which was different enough to evade those patents.

(If you look at practically all the protocols that underpin the internet from TCP/IP itself to applications like FTP and SMTP mail they were all produced by academics, published as RFCs and then Standards, and released to the public domain for free use


https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards#IS

and the 1996 RFC defining http 1.0

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc1945/ )

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631511

Postby Lootman » December 3rd, 2023, 10:35 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Lootman wrote:And in the long-standing British tradition, he barely made any money out of it.

He decided that it should be a public good and released the protocols etc into the public domain.

Hence my point. He (allegedly) invents the most significant thing in the last 50 years and makes next to nothing from it.

The UK does this every time.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631515

Postby ursaminortaur » December 3rd, 2023, 10:44 pm

Lootman wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:He decided that it should be a public good and released the protocols etc into the public domain.

Hence my point. He (allegedly) invents the most significant thing in the last 50 years and makes next to nothing from it.

The UK does this every time.


As I said in the previous post the same is true of practically all the protocols underlying applications on the internet which were put into the public domain in the form of RFCs and Internet standards - if those writing all those protocols had instead patented them then the internet as we now have it wouldn't exist (and since TCP/IP was developed in America most of those protocols were developed by Americans).

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631517

Postby Lootman » December 3rd, 2023, 10:47 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Lootman wrote:Hence my point. He (allegedly) invents the most significant thing in the last 50 years and makes next to nothing from it.

The UK does this every time.

As I said in the previous post the same is true of practically all the protocols underlying applications on the internet which were put into the public domain in the form of RFCs and Internet standards - if those writing all those protocols had instead patented them then the internet as we now have it wouldn't exist (and since TCP/IP was developed in America most of those protocols were developed by Americans).

And again it is still nuts that no money was made from this.

But except from Google, Amazon and so on of course.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631519

Postby XFool » December 3rd, 2023, 10:53 pm

Lootman wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:As I said in the previous post the same is true of practically all the protocols underlying applications on the internet which were put into the public domain in the form of RFCs and Internet standards - if those writing all those protocols had instead patented them then the internet as we now have it wouldn't exist (and since TCP/IP was developed in America most of those protocols were developed by Americans).

And again it is still nuts that no money was made from this.

You don't get it, do you?

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631520

Postby Lootman » December 3rd, 2023, 10:55 pm

XFool wrote:
Lootman wrote:And again it is still nuts that no money was made from this.

You don't get it, do you?

So what is the thing that you claim without evidence that I do not "get"?

Take your time.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631522

Postby XFool » December 3rd, 2023, 11:00 pm

Lootman wrote:
XFool wrote:You don't get it, do you?

So what is the thing that you claim without evidence that I do not "get"?

That the Internet is, in itself - as a product of academic, non commercial organisations plus commercial businesses - a working example of what a combination of the two can produce for human society. IMO a direct refutation of the naïve "Public bad. Private good" mantra believed by too many.

Didn't take long, did it?

Now you can disagree...

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631527

Postby Lootman » December 3rd, 2023, 11:05 pm

XFool wrote:
Lootman wrote:So what is the thing that you claim without evidence that I do not "get"?

That the Internet is, in itself - as a product of academic, non commercial organisations plus commercial businesses - a working example of what a combination of the two can produce for human society. IMO a direct refutation of the naïve "Public bad. Private good" mantra believed by too many.

OK so you agree no money accrued to the UK for this?

Just like it did not for the jet engine, the hovercraft, the TV and so on,

Clever but useless covers it.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631534

Postby ursaminortaur » December 3rd, 2023, 11:26 pm

Lootman wrote:
XFool wrote:That the Internet is, in itself - as a product of academic, non commercial organisations plus commercial businesses - a working example of what a combination of the two can produce for human society. IMO a direct refutation of the naïve "Public bad. Private good" mantra believed by too many.

OK so you agree no money accrued to the UK for this?

Just like it did not for the jet engine, the hovercraft, the TV and so on,

Clever but useless covers it.


Frank Whittle patented the Jet engine but lost out in the race to produce the first jet aircraft.

https://www.pbsaerospace.com/news-events/news/90-years-since-the-patenting-of-the-first-jet-engi

Dr Christopher Cockerell patented the hovercraft in 1954.

https://www.hovercraft-museum.org/history/

Baird took out his first television patent in 1923 and his mechanical system was used for a number of years by the BBC but was eventually superceded by a fully electric TV system.

https://www.nms.ac.uk/explore-our-collections/stories/science-and-technology/colour-television/

Born in Helensburgh in Scotland, inventor and engineer John Logie Baird (1888-1946) achieved many ‘firsts’ in television technology. He started experimenting with television in 1922 and took out his first television patent in 1923. He demonstrated the first prototype television in 1925. Baird then followed this with the first public demonstration of the transmission of images of people in January 1926. He demonstrated the first mechanical colour television system in 1928 and followed this with the first electronic colour system in 1941.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631535

Postby Lootman » December 3rd, 2023, 11:33 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Lootman wrote:OK so you agree no money accrued to the UK for this?

Just like it did not for the jet engine, the hovercraft, the TV and so on,

Clever but useless covers it.


Frank Whittle patented the Jet engine but lost out in the race to produce the first jet aircraft.

https://www.pbsaerospace.com/news-events/news/90-years-since-the-patenting-of-the-first-jet-engi

Dr Christopher Cockerell patented the hovercraft in 1954.

https://www.hovercraft-museum.org/history/

Baird took out his first television patent in 1923 and his mechanical system was used for a number of years by the BBC but was eventually superceded by a fully electric TV system.

https://www.nms.ac.uk/explore-our-collections/stories/science-and-technology/colour-television/

Born in Helensburgh in Scotland, inventor and engineer John Logie Baird (1888-1946) achieved many ‘firsts’ in television technology. He started experimenting with television in 1922 and took out his first television patent in 1923. He demonstrated the first prototype television in 1925. Baird then followed this with the first public demonstration of the transmission of images of people in January 1926. He demonstrated the first mechanical colour television system in 1928 and followed this with the first electronic colour system in 1941.

I know, Brits are clever but useless at making money from it.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631537

Postby ursaminortaur » December 3rd, 2023, 11:46 pm

Lootman wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
Frank Whittle patented the Jet engine but lost out in the race to produce the first jet aircraft.

https://www.pbsaerospace.com/news-events/news/90-years-since-the-patenting-of-the-first-jet-engi

Dr Christopher Cockerell patented the hovercraft in 1954.

https://www.hovercraft-museum.org/history/

Baird took out his first television patent in 1923 and his mechanical system was used for a number of years by the BBC but was eventually superceded by a fully electric TV system.

https://www.nms.ac.uk/explore-our-collections/stories/science-and-technology/colour-television/


I know, Brits are clever but useless at making money from it.


I'd think that Baird made money from his TV whilst the BBC used it and the UK treasury made 10% on Hovercraft until the British patents expired.

https://www.hovercraft-museum.org/history/

By 2000 the British patents on most hovercraft had lapsed and suddenly anyone could build and buy craft without 10% going to the UK treasury. In recent years hovercraft have enjoyed a renaissance and there is now a £30 million industry in the UK alone.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631539

Postby Lootman » December 3rd, 2023, 11:52 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Lootman wrote:OK so you agree no money accrued to the UK for this?

Just like it did not for the jet engine, the hovercraft, the TV and so on,

Clever but useless covers it.


Frank Whittle patented the Jet engine but lost out in the race to produce the first jet aircraft.

https://www.pbsaerospace.com/news-events/news/90-years-since-the-patenting-of-the-first-jet-engi

Dr Christopher Cockerell patented the hovercraft in 1954.

https://www.hovercraft-museum.org/history/

Baird took out his first television patent in 1923 and his mechanical system was used for a number of years by the BBC but was eventually superceded by a fully electric TV system.

https://www.nms.ac.uk/explore-our-collections/stories/science-and-technology/colour-television/

Born in Helensburgh in Scotland, inventor and engineer John Logie Baird (1888-1946) achieved many ‘firsts’ in television technology. He started experimenting with television in 1922 and took out his first television patent in 1923. He demonstrated the first prototype television in 1925. Baird then followed this with the first public demonstration of the transmission of images of people in January 1926. He demonstrated the first mechanical colour television system in 1928 and followed this with the first electronic colour system in 1941.

Again, same dealio, we are smart but useless.

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631540

Postby ursaminortaur » December 3rd, 2023, 11:56 pm

Lootman wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
Frank Whittle patented the Jet engine but lost out in the race to produce the first jet aircraft.

https://www.pbsaerospace.com/news-events/news/90-years-since-the-patenting-of-the-first-jet-engi

Dr Christopher Cockerell patented the hovercraft in 1954.

https://www.hovercraft-museum.org/history/

Baird took out his first television patent in 1923 and his mechanical system was used for a number of years by the BBC but was eventually superceded by a fully electric TV system.

https://www.nms.ac.uk/explore-our-collections/stories/science-and-technology/colour-television/


Again, same dealio, we are smart but useless.


Why have you responded to the same post twice with a virtually identical reply ?

viewtopic.php?p=631535#p631535

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Re: It is time for the UK to think like an emerging market

#631541

Postby Lootman » December 4th, 2023, 12:00 am

ursaminortaur wrote:
Lootman wrote:Again, same dealio, we are smart but useless.

Why have you responded to the same post twice with a virtually identical reply ?

Why do you post the same left-wing nonsense over and over?


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