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Budget 2024

including Budgets
U962
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Re: Budget 2024

#651928

Postby U962 » March 7th, 2024, 7:35 am

tjh290633 wrote:This demonstrates the foolishness of reducing tax rates instead of raising the threshold. The latter will bring far bigger benefits to the low paid and pensioners, at no extra cost. Hunt should never have been made chancellor.

TJH


The problem the UK has is that the tax base is too small.
So we've ended up where as I recall the top 1% of earners pay 30% of all income tax and the top 10% pay 60% of all income tax receipts.
Added to which the increasing number who pay no tax have no incentive to vote other than for a party wanting to tax and spend - knowing that they will not be the ones being taxed to pay for it all.
A truly radical Chancellor would abolish the personal allowances entirely so everything you earn is taxed. Then everybody would have to pay something, the tax base would be far wider, the demands by the newly taxed to reduce spending by the gov would multiply and force action for a change.

1nvest
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Re: Budget 2024

#651930

Postby 1nvest » March 7th, 2024, 7:47 am

U962 wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:This demonstrates the foolishness of reducing tax rates instead of raising the threshold. The latter will bring far bigger benefits to the low paid and pensioners, at no extra cost. Hunt should never have been made chancellor.

TJH


The problem the UK has is that the tax base is too small.
So we've ended up where as I recall the top 1% of earners pay 30% of all income tax and the top 10% pay 60% of all income tax receipts.
Added to which the increasing number who pay no tax have no incentive to vote other than for a party wanting to tax and spend - knowing that they will not be the ones being taxed to pay for it all.
A truly radical Chancellor would abolish the personal allowances entirely so everything you earn is taxed. Then everybody would have to pay something, the tax base would be far wider, the demands by the newly taxed to reduce spending by the gov would multiply and force action for a change.

Hunt has been useless in every department he's worked in.

SPURLEY
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Re: Budget 2024

#651936

Postby SPURLEY » March 7th, 2024, 7:57 am

U962 So no personal allowance , why bother working when those on benefits get everything free and don`t pay any tax ? If you can`t beat um join um .maybe ? why not increase VAT to 50% , instead of increasing benefits issue food vouchers etc . Small rant over , sorry .

Nimrod103
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Re: Budget 2024

#651937

Postby Nimrod103 » March 7th, 2024, 8:05 am

SPURLEY wrote:U962 So no personal allowance , why bother working when those on benefits get everything free and don`t pay any tax ? If you can`t beat um join um .maybe ? why not increase VAT to 50% , instead of increasing benefits issue food vouchers etc . Small rant over , sorry .


Indeed, but nearly 10 million have already taken that decision to drop out of the workforce, under the present tax system. How much worse could it get?
Working age idleness is a real threat to the prosperity of all of us. You can’t convince me there is a genuine increase in long term sickness in the population.

1nvest
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Re: Budget 2024

#651939

Postby 1nvest » March 7th, 2024, 8:07 am

the0ni0nking wrote:
1nvest wrote:And see more at the bottom end, whose low income might otherwise have been exempt, being brought into having to file a self assessment and pay tax. Especially the elderly, for whom opening Windows in December/January would seem totally unreasonable. And as for a mouse - they live in a clean house.

But that's the price of having to fund the likes of MP's and Lords individually milking £60 million out of the public purse.


About time the tax reach extended more widely - state pensioners have had it easy with the triple lock since whenever - if the end result of that means some pensioners filing in tax returns then so be it. If they can't cope with it then they can pay someone to do it for them.

And if they fail, then they can be fined for their failure.

Same as I'm sick of people moaning about bank branch closures and the like - they're not really needed. It's time people managed to at least move into the 2000s and the way things are now.

Around a third of the tax take is paid by 1%. Better would be to expand that number to three-fold. Repeated governments however do not provide consistency/stability, so potential double/treble of that number tends to be more pushed away - elsewhere (our loss, beneficial country's gain).

We've transitioned from a working week being largely 8 to 6, 6 days/week, women staying at home ... to where the 'workforce' was doubled - women working, and business days extended to 24/7. Along with technology ... fields of farm workers replaced by a single machine ...etc. and the benefits should have been more shared around. Instead many are working on wages that barely even cover their rent - they have to be supplemented by taxpayers and there's a large pool of idle despite numerous job vacancies, because wages are too low.

With 3% paying all of the tax take, combined with purchase/sales tax (the more you have/spend the more you pay) there would be far less chasing individuals through courts for pennies discrepancies, less of those milking the public purse for £60 million and having no action taken against them.

As for HMRC and enquiries - you're lucky if you can get through in under 40 minutes, more often its longer, often with your long wait just being cut-off. Writing in and you're looking at months. But yes a revenue earner because if you don't respond/pay to their demands quickly there are penalties. Fining pensioners on low income for late/incorrect SA filings would just be another unfair tax.

As for a transition to electronic only payments, abolition of cash, that then means its not your money, but the states. Subsequently further automated tax/revenues would follow, such as fined for over-buying red meat, or too many flights/holidays etc. Tracking your every move, thoughts, actions, transactions = open prison, where those that aren't 'compliant' (to some quangos belief of 'right') can be fined or imprisoned. Fine if you perhaps subscribe to women being secondary and having to wear headwear etc. if/when that becomes the quangos preferred choice.

JohnB
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Re: Budget 2024

#651941

Postby JohnB » March 7th, 2024, 8:11 am

U962 wrote:
The problem the UK has is that the tax base is too small.
So we've ended up where as I recall the top 1% of earners pay 30% of all income tax and the top 10% pay 60% of all income tax receipts.
Added to which the increasing number who pay no tax have no incentive to vote other than for a party wanting to tax and spend - knowing that they will not be the ones being taxed to pay for it all.
A truly radical Chancellor would abolish the personal allowances entirely so everything you earn is taxed. Then everybody would have to pay something, the tax base would be far wider, the demands by the newly taxed to reduce spending by the gov would multiply and force action for a change.


The solution to widening the tax base is narrowing income inequality. But if you can't persuade employers to do wealth redistribution, the state needs to through tax and benefits.

In any society there are some that get more benefits than they contribute. Taking with one hand and removing with the other doesn't make them more responsible, it just introduces an extra admin burden, and the reporting is quite a burden for those less financially competent.

Hunt's changes don't benefit the poor, or the rich, they benefit those with ordinary jobs.

1nvest
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Re: Budget 2024

#651942

Postby 1nvest » March 7th, 2024, 8:14 am

Nimrod103 wrote:
SPURLEY wrote:U962 So no personal allowance , why bother working when those on benefits get everything free and don`t pay any tax ? If you can`t beat um join um .maybe ? why not increase VAT to 50% , instead of increasing benefits issue food vouchers etc . Small rant over , sorry .

Indeed, but nearly 10 million have already taken that decision to drop out of the workforce, under the present tax system. How much worse could it get?
Working age idleness is a real threat to the prosperity of all of us. You can’t convince me there is a genuine increase in long term sickness in the population.

A recent graduate has a further 9% higher tax rate. Rents have soared, allowances remained unchanged, for many wages barely even cover rent or childcare. When working all week leaves you little different to not having worked, the outcome is obvious. More often businesses will prefer to pay for low wage migrants than develop/pay Brits. Recent measures indicate that the UK can expect a further 1.7 million increase in population (migration) over the next parliament.

If by the time someone works to end up with little surplus capital after paying for food/clothes/accommodation/bills, that is little different to slavery, but where the slaves get their own food/shelter/accommodation rather than their master directly providing that.

MuddyBoots
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Re: Budget 2024

#651955

Postby MuddyBoots » March 7th, 2024, 9:25 am

1nvest wrote: More often businesses will prefer to pay for low wage migrants than develop/pay Brits. Recent measures indicate that the UK can expect a further 1.7 million increase in population (migration) over the next parliament.


I get what you're saying 1nvest, except that if migrants are entitled to the same benefits as the rest of us, why would they have a better work ethic ? What's to stop them working as long as the rules require it, then start playing the overburdened system which they can see going on all around them.

Nimrod103
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Re: Budget 2024

#651957

Postby Nimrod103 » March 7th, 2024, 9:32 am

MuddyBoots wrote:
1nvest wrote: More often businesses will prefer to pay for low wage migrants than develop/pay Brits. Recent measures indicate that the UK can expect a further 1.7 million increase in population (migration) over the next parliament.


I get what you're saying 1nvest, except that if migrants are entitled to the same benefits as the rest of us, why would they have a better work ethic ? What's to stop them working as long as the rules require it, then start playing the overburdened system which they can see going on all around them.


From what I observe, that is what is already happening. But like all Ponzi schemes, it takes a while for the new arrivals to work that out. Some much quicker than others.

the0ni0nking
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Re: Budget 2024

#651958

Postby the0ni0nking » March 7th, 2024, 9:43 am

MuddyBoots wrote:
I get what you're saying 1nvest, except that if migrants are entitled to the same benefits as the rest of us, why would they have a better work ethic ? What's to stop them working as long as the rules require it, then start playing the overburdened system which they can see going on all around them.


Detail from 2023 on unemployment by ethnicity:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/112 ... ingdom-uk/

Highest is 10.3% for Bangladeshi down to the lowest 3.5% for White.

I can't drill into the source (as not registered) but am assuming there will be some correlation between these numbers and the proportion on unemployment related benefits -as opposed to been unemployed through a deliberate choice to withdraw from the work force

monabri
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Re: Budget 2024

#651959

Postby monabri » March 7th, 2024, 9:49 am

Nimrod103 wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:I have realized what Hunt is up to. There have been thoughts of merging NICs and Income Tax . He is doing it by stealth by not raising the thresholds and gradually reducing NICs. Not sure how employers NICs are affected. Will there be a payroll tax to replace them?

TJH


I came to the same conclusion, and furthermore, abolishing NI contributions makes it easier for the state pension to become a means rested benefit.



Tax has to be paid ...we have a growing number of pensioners so they will be targeted (rich....home owning....THEY can afford it! goes the cry!).

88V8
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Re: Budget 2024

#651966

Postby 88V8 » March 7th, 2024, 10:25 am

monabri wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:I came to the same conclusion, and furthermore, abolishing NI contributions makes it easier for the state pension to become a means rested benefit.

Tax has to be paid ...we have a growing number of pensioners so they will be targeted (rich....home owning....THEY can afford it! goes the cry!).

But we also vote.... :twisted:

V8

Tedx
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Re: Budget 2024

#651980

Postby Tedx » March 7th, 2024, 10:58 am

We aint gonna see the Tories again for 10 years at least. Starmer is trying to keep his head down and just try to get over the line (preferably with a large, nay huge majority).

Once Captain Cardboard slides his ass into that leather armchair in No.10, then we'll see what he's really up to. And he can do whatever he wants tbh.

Tax property owning pensioners? No bother. Pay doctors and nurses and teachers? I'll sign it off now. Reopen discussions with the EU? Yep, it's on the to do list.

To be fair, Boris should have been a 3 term Prime Minister. But Boris was an idiot.

77ss
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Re: Budget 2024

#651985

Postby 77ss » March 7th, 2024, 11:20 am

Tedx wrote:W......
To be fair, Boris should have been a 3 term Prime Minister. But Boris was an idiot.


Who exactly are being 'fair' to, and why?

Boris was/is a lying buffoon.

A cross between Walter Mitty, Billy Bunter and Toad of Toad Hall.

Charisma? Great for the charismatic, but generally a vastly overrated quality for the rest of us - if not disastrous.

denimchunky
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Re: Budget 2024

#651987

Postby denimchunky » March 7th, 2024, 11:46 am

U962 wrote:
The problem the UK has is that the tax base is too small.
So we've ended up where as I recall the top 1% of earners pay 30% of all income tax and the top 10% pay 60% of all income tax receipts.
Added to which the increasing number who pay no tax have no incentive to vote other than for a party wanting to tax and spend - knowing that they will not be the ones being taxed to pay for it all.
A truly radical Chancellor would abolish the personal allowances entirely so everything you earn is taxed. Then everybody would have to pay something, the tax base would be far wider, the demands by the newly taxed to reduce spending by the gov would multiply and force action for a change.


There is something to this. I lived in New Zealand for a few years. They had no personal allowances but more bands of income tax and no national insurance. There was a fairly generous bottom rate band at 10% before it started to increase. I can't remember the full detail but I think the top rate was 39% from memory.

Oh and no CGT or IHT either. A much simpler tax code for both tax payers and for the government to collect/enforce...

funduffer
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Re: Budget 2024

#651989

Postby funduffer » March 7th, 2024, 11:52 am

Forget Hunt and the Tories, they are history.

If Starmer and Reeves have any sense they will introduce a dose of Bidenomics to try and address the delapidated state of the UK. I.e. a large package of public investment, and encouragement of private investment. We have to solve the productivity problem to get the UK growing again and less reliant on imported labour. This can only be achieved with investment (public and private).

A fiscal rule that differentiates between borrowing for day-to-day spending and public investment needs to be invented ( I.e. the latter ok, the former, not). Then we can move forward as a country.

The current fiscal rule (falling debt/GDP ratio in 5 years) is ridiculous. I think the ‘market’ that undid Liz Truss, would accept an investment led plan for the country, even if it meant debt/GDP ratio rising.

FD

RockRabbit
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Re: Budget 2024

#651998

Postby RockRabbit » March 7th, 2024, 12:15 pm

Tedx wrote:We aint gonna see the Tories again for 10 years at least. Starmer is trying to keep his head down and just try to get over the line (preferably with a large, nay huge majority).

Once Captain Cardboard slides his ass into that leather armchair in No.10, then we'll see what he's really up to. And he can do whatever he wants tbh.

Tax property owning pensioners? No bother. Pay doctors and nurses and teachers? I'll sign it off now. Reopen discussions with the EU? Yep, it's on the to do list.

To be fair, Boris should have been a 3 term Prime Minister. But Boris was an idiot.

I'm not sure why you slagging off Starmer (and really, do you need to use a childish phrase such as 'Captain Cardboard')? We are where we are on taxes, public expenditure and widespread public sector mismanagement following 14 years of Conservative government. The Conservative Party own this mess.

xeny
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Re: Budget 2024

#652000

Postby xeny » March 7th, 2024, 12:32 pm

tjh290633 wrote:This demonstrates the foolishness of reducing tax rates instead of raising the threshold. The latter will bring far bigger benefits to the low paid and pensioners, at no extra cost. Hunt should never have been made chancellor.

TJH


Administratively foolish, but I think it is a good policy socially to remind some of those on lower incomes that money goes both ways, not just from the government.

xeny
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Re: Budget 2024

#652001

Postby xeny » March 7th, 2024, 12:35 pm

U962 wrote:
A truly radical Chancellor would abolish the personal allowances entirely so everything you earn is taxed. Then everybody would have to pay something, the tax base would be far wider, the demands by the newly taxed to reduce spending by the gov would multiply and force action for a change.


I think this is also potentially good for social cohesion. I know people from NZ and Norway and they often say "we decided to" about government policy/decisions rather than the UK centric "they decided to".

Adamski
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Re: Budget 2024

#652002

Postby Adamski » March 7th, 2024, 12:45 pm

Yes, the Torys "own this". But they've got few weeks and will be gone.

We have to consider whats next, not what went in the past. Then we'll see if "green growth" and VAT on private school fees will pay for all the promises. (They won't)

Look past Starmer and Reeves, to the backbenchers - hamas supporters, purple haired socialists and unhinged greens. We're heading into scary times.


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