Sundance13 wrote: beeswax wrote: ursaminortaur wrote:
When an agreement requiring unanimity between a large number of countries is rejected by one country but accepted by all the others it surely makes sense to discuss the issue with that country and see whether it is possible to make some small change which would make it acceptable to that country whilst not upsetting those who had already agreed.
The UK is a representative democracy with members of parliament representing the people and exercising sovereignty on their behalf. If you want to change that you are quite entitled to setup your own party and campaign for some other system such as the type of direct democracy employed in Switzerland.
Though Brenda from Bristol might not be too happy at the prospect of almost continual referendumshttps://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/not-another-one-brendas-reaction-to-general-election-news-delights-the-internet-a3517271.html
So, can you explain why most Labour MP's are not representing the wishes of the constituencies that voted to leave the EU? Parliamentary democracy fails when it stops listening to the people that put them there. If its a choice between parliament and the people then of course it has to be the people....and why the Supreme Court erred in its judgement to allow parliament to overturn the referendum result IF it so wishes and so once again were not on the people's side. But at least two of the SC judges agreed with that concept that its for the people and by the people that the government can only govern with the consent of the people and not in essence as their conscience dictates...which some MP's try and use as an excuse.
It's also interesting that MP's are creating a huge fuss about parliamentary sovereignty and getting a vote on the final deal for Brexit while giving that away to Brussels over many years without a murmur or worse, not asking the people and that is a disgusting misuse of the trust that was given to them. We cut off a King's head so that Parliament could be in control and yet they gave that away and shows what liberal traitors they were to have done so....No need to name the worst offenders. There is no such thing as shared sovereignty as its a contradiction in terms and in fact. Qualified majority voting means we have to accept laws that we may disagree with. That is dictatorship, plain and simple and especially when we cannot remove them from office by the ballot box. Discuss all you like shared interests and contribute money if needed but we do NOT need to be in the EU in order to do that because its OUR choice to do so and not theirs....
Now, do remainers get the point about Brexit? As it seems to fall on deaf ears most of the time.
Most Labour voters are Remainers Mike, as are the large majority of Labour Party members.
As to the point of Brexit, that varies depending on who you ask. Some want Brexit to reduce immigration, some want a return of sovereignty, some want it to turn Britain into a Singapore style free trading tax haven.
The majority of Brexiteers don’t seem to have a plan in terms of what happens after Brexit and are unable to agree what type of relationship they want with the EU after we leave. It’s not surprising therefore that non Brexiteers raise concerns over the direction the country is taking and the potential impact on their families, particularly when many Brexiteers want out no matter what the cost.
Equally though I think the idea we can simply ignore the June 16 vote and happily revoke A50 is somewhat delusional also. We will be leaving, whats key is getting the least harmful (economically) deal.
So even though I don’t think she’ll achieve her aims, I’m happy to support May and her CETA+++ aim. If she really can retain all the economic benefits of the single market/Customs Union, without the costs and obligations, then that’s an incredible result. I’d even be happy if she ends up with something resembling EFTA/EEA, so she gets her CETA+++ but has to pay a fee for access, allow ongoing free movement in all but name and some ECJ jurisdiction.
As for getting the point of Brexit, I do as I voted for it, however I believe now that my fears over our loss of sovereignty were not matched by reality. In reality our Govt has pretty much full control over the stuff that affects my day to day live - economic policy, taxes, NHS, Schools, transport etc. Even when we leave we will still have to follow WTO rules, many of which the EU currently pass through to us but which are viewed as EU laws!
I’ll be behind a 2nd referendum IF she comes away with no deal or a basic FTA.
So for now I’m happy to get behind the Govt and see how things play out, despite my deep scepticism around her plans!
Hi Dan, how can you say that most Labour voters are remainers when two things happened to disprove that.
First I read that two thirds of all Labour constituencies voted to leave the EU..
Secondly at the last GE the ONLY party to campaign on remaining in the EU were the Lib Dems and the SNP and the Labour party said they were committed to obey the will of the referendum vote and so every single voter had a chance to vote to remain in the EU and the result was overwhelming to leave.
You say that the EU has no effect on our day to day lives but again that is incorrect.
We cannot bail out our industries and have to have competitive tendering throughout the EU where foreign nations win these contracts while our industries close down and lay of thousands of people and those skills are lost forever and no wonder our manufacturing GDP is so low. I am reading today that Germany have been awarded a MOD contract worth 3bn...So our social security bill goes up and that means less money elsewhere. Immigrant housing and other benefits are immense and so that once again is dictated by the EU freedom of movement. Roads, Schools, hospitals, GP's all affected by immigration where we can't even know what numbers may come month by month...That is a DIRECT result of EU membership!
The billion a month we pay for membership could go to the NHS immediately and social care. We have NO control on how many EU citizens can come here or vote down EU directives in parliament that affects every single business in the UK even if they don't sell anything to the EU...
People keep saying the UK does not know what it wants from the EU and they are deaf and blind if that's the case.
The PM has laid out that vision two or three times now and that is seamless trade access for goods and services that benefit both the UK and the EU and have a close special relationship on all other issues like security, environment and other things.
Its the EU that is saying we can't have these things and not the UK....and why the remainers need to READ what the PM says and not make things up...and you are doing exactly the same thing my friend....Remember the EU sell us 70 thousand million pounds worth of goods more than we sell to them.....Its they that should be begging for a trade deal and not us...
I do agree we have poor negotiators that have been hissing about since the referendum vote and we should NOT have agreed with the EU agenda and made it clear it has to be a trade deal first and foremost as that affects everything else like the NI border for example.
So the MAJORITY of us know exactly what we want from Brexit..
Control of our laws, our borders and our money and a trade deal based on the existing model. Something most leave MP''s and Cabinet Ministers are repeating the whole time....
What's so difficult to understand?