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ursaminortaur
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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110042

Postby ursaminortaur » January 13th, 2018, 12:15 am

1nv35t wrote:A common theme is apparent across Europe. For instance the Irish referendum was repeated until the right choice was made. 2002 Dutch referendum that rejected signing up to the Lisbon Treaty was ignored. Brexit 2016 again being ignored.


When an agreement requiring unanimity between a large number of countries is rejected by one country but accepted by all the others it surely makes sense to discuss the issue with that country and see whether it is possible to make some small change which would make it acceptable to that country whilst not upsetting those who had already agreed.

1nv35t wrote:Time perhaps for the UK to lead yet again, and set a precedence of transferring Sovereignty from Parliament to the People. One for Corbyn to take up perhaps?


The UK is a representative democracy with members of parliament representing the people and exercising sovereignty on their behalf. If you want to change that you are quite entitled to setup your own party and campaign for some other system such as the type of direct democracy employed in Switzerland.
Though Brenda from Bristol might not be too happy at the prospect of almost continual referendums
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/not-another-one-brendas-reaction-to-general-election-news-delights-the-internet-a3517271.html

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110045

Postby beeswax » January 13th, 2018, 12:38 am

ursaminortaur wrote:
1nv35t wrote:A common theme is apparent across Europe. For instance the Irish referendum was repeated until the right choice was made. 2002 Dutch referendum that rejected signing up to the Lisbon Treaty was ignored. Brexit 2016 again being ignored.


When an agreement requiring unanimity between a large number of countries is rejected by one country but accepted by all the others it surely makes sense to discuss the issue with that country and see whether it is possible to make some small change which would make it acceptable to that country whilst not upsetting those who had already agreed.

1nv35t wrote:Time perhaps for the UK to lead yet again, and set a precedence of transferring Sovereignty from Parliament to the People. One for Corbyn to take up perhaps?


The UK is a representative democracy with members of parliament representing the people and exercising sovereignty on their behalf. If you want to change that you are quite entitled to setup your own party and campaign for some other system such as the type of direct democracy employed in Switzerland.
Though Brenda from Bristol might not be too happy at the prospect of almost continual referendums
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/not-another-one-brendas-reaction-to-general-election-news-delights-the-internet-a3517271.html


So, can you explain why most Labour MP's are not representing the wishes of the constituencies that voted to leave the EU? Parliamentary democracy fails when it stops listening to the people that put them there. If its a choice between parliament and the people then of course it has to be the people....and why the Supreme Court erred in its judgement to allow parliament to overturn the referendum result IF it so wishes and so once again were not on the people's side. But at least two of the SC judges agreed with that concept that its for the people and by the people that the government can only govern with the consent of the people and not in essence as their conscience dictates...which some MP's try and use as an excuse.

It's also interesting that MP's are creating a huge fuss about parliamentary sovereignty and getting a vote on the final deal for Brexit while giving that away to Brussels over many years without a murmur or worse, not asking the people and that is a disgusting misuse of the trust that was given to them. We cut off a King's head so that Parliament could be in control and yet they gave that away and shows what liberal traitors they were to have done so....No need to name the worst offenders. There is no such thing as shared sovereignty as its a contradiction in terms and in fact. Qualified majority voting means we have to accept laws that we may disagree with. That is dictatorship, plain and simple and especially when we cannot remove them from office by the ballot box. Discuss all you like shared interests and contribute money if needed but we do NOT need to be in the EU in order to do that because its OUR choice to do so and not theirs....

Now, do remainers get the point about Brexit? As it seems to fall on deaf ears most of the time.

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110064

Postby johnhemming » January 13th, 2018, 8:18 am

MPs are elected to study the issues and do the best they can for their constituents.

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110067

Postby Nimrod103 » January 13th, 2018, 8:30 am

johnhemming wrote:MPs are elected to study the issues and do the best they can for their constituents.


It means they therefore must take full and complete responsibility for what happens to the well being of the country. Pretty woeful result don't you think? Whose heads deserve to be on spikes?

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110068

Postby johnhemming » January 13th, 2018, 8:35 am

The key element to a democracy is the ability to vote for people other than those in power and if the majority of people wish to so do then remove from power those in power.

Hence when political leaders lose power their bodies don't float down the Thames.

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110103

Postby Nimrod103 » January 13th, 2018, 10:24 am

johnhemming wrote:The key element to a democracy is the ability to vote for people other than those in power and if the majority of people wish to so do then remove from power those in power.

Hence when political leaders lose power their bodies don't float down the Thames.


So in return for the power to govern us, punish us, withdraw our liberties, tax us, - if things go wrong, the MPs just lose their seats, perhaps, unless they are in one of the many UK rotten boroughs. That is not sufficient, it is no incentive to good behaviour.

Actually, as a barrack room lawyer, I take the view that sovereignty lies with the people, as defined by various acts of Parliament during the interregnum, and the Bill of Rights. If sovereignty lies with Parliament, what is to stop them abolishing elections altogether, and who holds sovereignty when Parliament is dissolved before a general election, and there are no MPs? As this is all about the referendum result, this was clearly to be enacted by Parliament in accordance with the people's wishes, as set out in literature produced by the Govt.

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110108

Postby Sundance13 » January 13th, 2018, 10:31 am

beeswax wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
1nv35t wrote:A common theme is apparent across Europe. For instance the Irish referendum was repeated until the right choice was made. 2002 Dutch referendum that rejected signing up to the Lisbon Treaty was ignored. Brexit 2016 again being ignored.


When an agreement requiring unanimity between a large number of countries is rejected by one country but accepted by all the others it surely makes sense to discuss the issue with that country and see whether it is possible to make some small change which would make it acceptable to that country whilst not upsetting those who had already agreed.

1nv35t wrote:Time perhaps for the UK to lead yet again, and set a precedence of transferring Sovereignty from Parliament to the People. One for Corbyn to take up perhaps?


The UK is a representative democracy with members of parliament representing the people and exercising sovereignty on their behalf. If you want to change that you are quite entitled to setup your own party and campaign for some other system such as the type of direct democracy employed in Switzerland.
Though Brenda from Bristol might not be too happy at the prospect of almost continual referendums
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/not-another-one-brendas-reaction-to-general-election-news-delights-the-internet-a3517271.html


So, can you explain why most Labour MP's are not representing the wishes of the constituencies that voted to leave the EU? Parliamentary democracy fails when it stops listening to the people that put them there. If its a choice between parliament and the people then of course it has to be the people....and why the Supreme Court erred in its judgement to allow parliament to overturn the referendum result IF it so wishes and so once again were not on the people's side. But at least two of the SC judges agreed with that concept that its for the people and by the people that the government can only govern with the consent of the people and not in essence as their conscience dictates...which some MP's try and use as an excuse.

It's also interesting that MP's are creating a huge fuss about parliamentary sovereignty and getting a vote on the final deal for Brexit while giving that away to Brussels over many years without a murmur or worse, not asking the people and that is a disgusting misuse of the trust that was given to them. We cut off a King's head so that Parliament could be in control and yet they gave that away and shows what liberal traitors they were to have done so....No need to name the worst offenders. There is no such thing as shared sovereignty as its a contradiction in terms and in fact. Qualified majority voting means we have to accept laws that we may disagree with. That is dictatorship, plain and simple and especially when we cannot remove them from office by the ballot box. Discuss all you like shared interests and contribute money if needed but we do NOT need to be in the EU in order to do that because its OUR choice to do so and not theirs....

Now, do remainers get the point about Brexit? As it seems to fall on deaf ears most of the time.




Most Labour voters are Remainers Mike, as are the large majority of Labour Party members.

As to the point of Brexit, that varies depending on who you ask. Some want Brexit to reduce immigration, some want a return of sovereignty, some want it to turn Britain into a Singapore style free trading tax haven.

The majority of Brexiteers don’t seem to have a plan in terms of what happens after Brexit and are unable to agree what type of relationship they want with the EU after we leave. It’s not surprising therefore that non Brexiteers raise concerns over the direction the country is taking and the potential impact on their families, particularly when many Brexiteers want out no matter what the cost.

Equally though I think the idea we can simply ignore the June 16 vote and happily revoke A50 is somewhat delusional also. We will be leaving, whats key is getting the least harmful (economically) deal.

So even though I don’t think she’ll achieve her aims, I’m happy to support May and her CETA+++ aim. If she really can retain all the economic benefits of the single market/Customs Union, without the costs and obligations, then that’s an incredible result. I’d even be happy if she ends up with something resembling EFTA/EEA, so she gets her CETA+++ but has to pay a fee for access, allow ongoing free movement in all but name and some ECJ jurisdiction.

As for getting the point of Brexit, I do as I voted for it, however I believe now that my fears over our loss of sovereignty were not matched by reality. In reality our Govt has pretty much full control over the stuff that affects my day to day live - economic policy, taxes, NHS, Schools, transport etc. Even when we leave we will still have to follow WTO rules, many of which the EU currently pass through to us but which are viewed as EU laws!

I’ll be behind a 2nd referendum IF she comes away with no deal or a basic FTA.

So for now I’m happy to get behind the Govt and see how things play out, despite my deep scepticism around her plans!

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110111

Postby johnhemming » January 13th, 2018, 10:34 am

The law on the referendum was passed by parliament not the government. It was quite clear in that it was not binding.

When parliament is dissolved there are no MPs, but the government remains in control of the executive.

You can argue that the law is anything that you wish to argue, but in the end the law is quite clear. We also have courts to clarify what the law actually is.

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110137

Postby beeswax » January 13th, 2018, 11:46 am

johnhemming wrote:The key element to a democracy is the ability to vote for people other than those in power and if the majority of people wish to so do then remove from power those in power.

Hence when political leaders lose power their bodies don't float down the Thames.


John, you are absolutely right and so how can you square that position with membership of the EU whereby UK voters cannot vote to remove the 5 Presidents or overturn the will of the European Parliament as we are so few in number?

The KEY element is as you say and yet you are wedded to the EU?

Makes no sense to me mate...

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110147

Postby beeswax » January 13th, 2018, 12:07 pm

Sundance13 wrote:
beeswax wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
When an agreement requiring unanimity between a large number of countries is rejected by one country but accepted by all the others it surely makes sense to discuss the issue with that country and see whether it is possible to make some small change which would make it acceptable to that country whilst not upsetting those who had already agreed.



The UK is a representative democracy with members of parliament representing the people and exercising sovereignty on their behalf. If you want to change that you are quite entitled to setup your own party and campaign for some other system such as the type of direct democracy employed in Switzerland.
Though Brenda from Bristol might not be too happy at the prospect of almost continual referendums
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/not-another-one-brendas-reaction-to-general-election-news-delights-the-internet-a3517271.html


So, can you explain why most Labour MP's are not representing the wishes of the constituencies that voted to leave the EU? Parliamentary democracy fails when it stops listening to the people that put them there. If its a choice between parliament and the people then of course it has to be the people....and why the Supreme Court erred in its judgement to allow parliament to overturn the referendum result IF it so wishes and so once again were not on the people's side. But at least two of the SC judges agreed with that concept that its for the people and by the people that the government can only govern with the consent of the people and not in essence as their conscience dictates...which some MP's try and use as an excuse.

It's also interesting that MP's are creating a huge fuss about parliamentary sovereignty and getting a vote on the final deal for Brexit while giving that away to Brussels over many years without a murmur or worse, not asking the people and that is a disgusting misuse of the trust that was given to them. We cut off a King's head so that Parliament could be in control and yet they gave that away and shows what liberal traitors they were to have done so....No need to name the worst offenders. There is no such thing as shared sovereignty as its a contradiction in terms and in fact. Qualified majority voting means we have to accept laws that we may disagree with. That is dictatorship, plain and simple and especially when we cannot remove them from office by the ballot box. Discuss all you like shared interests and contribute money if needed but we do NOT need to be in the EU in order to do that because its OUR choice to do so and not theirs....

Now, do remainers get the point about Brexit? As it seems to fall on deaf ears most of the time.




Most Labour voters are Remainers Mike, as are the large majority of Labour Party members.

As to the point of Brexit, that varies depending on who you ask. Some want Brexit to reduce immigration, some want a return of sovereignty, some want it to turn Britain into a Singapore style free trading tax haven.

The majority of Brexiteers don’t seem to have a plan in terms of what happens after Brexit and are unable to agree what type of relationship they want with the EU after we leave. It’s not surprising therefore that non Brexiteers raise concerns over the direction the country is taking and the potential impact on their families, particularly when many Brexiteers want out no matter what the cost.

Equally though I think the idea we can simply ignore the June 16 vote and happily revoke A50 is somewhat delusional also. We will be leaving, whats key is getting the least harmful (economically) deal.

So even though I don’t think she’ll achieve her aims, I’m happy to support May and her CETA+++ aim. If she really can retain all the economic benefits of the single market/Customs Union, without the costs and obligations, then that’s an incredible result. I’d even be happy if she ends up with something resembling EFTA/EEA, so she gets her CETA+++ but has to pay a fee for access, allow ongoing free movement in all but name and some ECJ jurisdiction.

As for getting the point of Brexit, I do as I voted for it, however I believe now that my fears over our loss of sovereignty were not matched by reality. In reality our Govt has pretty much full control over the stuff that affects my day to day live - economic policy, taxes, NHS, Schools, transport etc. Even when we leave we will still have to follow WTO rules, many of which the EU currently pass through to us but which are viewed as EU laws!

I’ll be behind a 2nd referendum IF she comes away with no deal or a basic FTA.

So for now I’m happy to get behind the Govt and see how things play out, despite my deep scepticism around her plans!



Hi Dan, how can you say that most Labour voters are remainers when two things happened to disprove that.

First I read that two thirds of all Labour constituencies voted to leave the EU..

Secondly at the last GE the ONLY party to campaign on remaining in the EU were the Lib Dems and the SNP and the Labour party said they were committed to obey the will of the referendum vote and so every single voter had a chance to vote to remain in the EU and the result was overwhelming to leave.

You say that the EU has no effect on our day to day lives but again that is incorrect.

We cannot bail out our industries and have to have competitive tendering throughout the EU where foreign nations win these contracts while our industries close down and lay of thousands of people and those skills are lost forever and no wonder our manufacturing GDP is so low. I am reading today that Germany have been awarded a MOD contract worth 3bn...So our social security bill goes up and that means less money elsewhere. Immigrant housing and other benefits are immense and so that once again is dictated by the EU freedom of movement. Roads, Schools, hospitals, GP's all affected by immigration where we can't even know what numbers may come month by month...That is a DIRECT result of EU membership!

The billion a month we pay for membership could go to the NHS immediately and social care. We have NO control on how many EU citizens can come here or vote down EU directives in parliament that affects every single business in the UK even if they don't sell anything to the EU...

People keep saying the UK does not know what it wants from the EU and they are deaf and blind if that's the case.

The PM has laid out that vision two or three times now and that is seamless trade access for goods and services that benefit both the UK and the EU and have a close special relationship on all other issues like security, environment and other things.

Its the EU that is saying we can't have these things and not the UK....and why the remainers need to READ what the PM says and not make things up...and you are doing exactly the same thing my friend....Remember the EU sell us 70 thousand million pounds worth of goods more than we sell to them.....Its they that should be begging for a trade deal and not us...

I do agree we have poor negotiators that have been hissing about since the referendum vote and we should NOT have agreed with the EU agenda and made it clear it has to be a trade deal first and foremost as that affects everything else like the NI border for example.

So the MAJORITY of us know exactly what we want from Brexit..

Control of our laws, our borders and our money and a trade deal based on the existing model. Something most leave MP''s and Cabinet Ministers are repeating the whole time....

What's so difficult to understand?

ATB

Mike

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110152

Postby Sundance13 » January 13th, 2018, 12:23 pm

Hi Mike,

Will respond to the rest of your post later, but re:Labour voters supporting Remain, here’s the breakdown of voting at the referendum, specifically on party preference:

A majority of those who backed the Conservative in 2015 voted to leave the EU (58%), as did more than 19 out of 20 UKIP supporters. Nearly two thirds of Labour and SNP voters (63% and 64%), seven in ten Liberal Democrats and three quarters of Greens, voted to remain.


https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/h ... d-and-why/

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110160

Postby johnhemming » January 13th, 2018, 12:42 pm

beeswax wrote:
johnhemming wrote:The key element to a democracy is the ability to vote for people other than those in power and if the majority of people wish to so do then remove from power those in power.

Hence when political leaders lose power their bodies don't float down the Thames.


John, you are absolutely right and so how can you square that position with membership of the EU whereby UK voters cannot vote to remove the 5 Presidents or overturn the will of the European Parliament as we are so few in number?


All trade agreements (Including the WTO) involve limits on sovereignty. That is why there are agreements. Otherwise each country could do exactly what it wants to do.

The decisions in the EU are made by the council of ministers on which we currently have a representative and by the European Parliament to which we elect members.

If we join the TPP now called the CPTPP (which has been a government proposal) then we don't have directly elected representatives and it is all about fixes in back rooms. We don't have the transparency of the EU processes.

Do you have figures on the votes in the European Parliament and how many of them have had all the UK MEPS on one side, but that side has lost.

My guess it that there have been no votes where all of the UK MEPs were on one side. If there were I would think we were on the winning side.

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110170

Postby beeswax » January 13th, 2018, 1:05 pm

Sundance13 wrote:Hi Mike,

Will respond to the rest of your post later, but re:Labour voters supporting Remain, here’s the breakdown of voting at the referendum, specifically on party preference:

A majority of those who backed the Conservative in 2015 voted to leave the EU (58%), as did more than 19 out of 20 UKIP supporters. Nearly two thirds of Labour and SNP voters (63% and 64%), seven in ten Liberal Democrats and three quarters of Greens, voted to remain.


https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/h ... d-and-why/


Hi Dan,

But the vast remain vote in London would distort those figures and even so the leave vote won and as even Philip Hammond has said just now, it's time for the EU and all the remainers to stop harping back to a revote or change of mind and lets just get on with leaving the EU and the opportunities that will present itself....and for him to say that is quite significant...

The only problem we had was the remainers would not accept the vote as they should in a democratic country and IF it doesn't go according to plan as they suggest then its really very easy. Organise another EU vote in say 10 years time when the young generation that voted to remain in large numbers can see for themselves and have another go..

It is NOT irreversible as some make out as the vote to join the Common Market wasn't. OK the conditions for re entry may change but I think we would have lost the rebate at some time and even joining the single currency. But the young may love that idea anyway...no need to change your pounds into Euro's anymore when you go on your hols....;)

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110175

Postby Sundance13 » January 13th, 2018, 1:15 pm

1nv35t wrote:
Sundance13 wrote:Most Labour voters are Remainers Mike, as are the large majority of Labour Party members.

Measured on a constitute basis, 70%+ majority voted Leave at the referendum. By all measures Leave had the majority, the best Remain case being the count of individual votes. The count of those that voted to Leave was the highest of any vote. If a single political party won anywhere near a similar number of votes at a General Election it would be a dictatorship. As many of those who vote Labour are more likely to socially be at the worst end of the UK being in the EU (greater job competition from lower paid EU migrants such as plumbers), I can't see how your claim that the majority of Labour Party members support Remain. Excepting perhaps if they'd believed the Remain proclamations during the campaign that Brexit was a racist/extremist choice. Since the referendum that along with other ridiculous claims by Remain have been demonstrated as being wrong and accordingly many former Remain voters have switched to preferring to Leave. Yet other former Remain voters accept the majority decision and just want to get on with it asap (eliminate the uncertainties that is economically damaging). In the event of another referendum the likelihood is for a considerably increased support for Leave (historically, when referendums have been repeated the general outcome has been to see increased numbers of the former majority choice, simple statements of ... we chose so get on with it).

I suspect that many Labour voters with commonwealth/non-EU family roots were more inclined to vote Remain at the referendum. Given that membership of the EU is a barrier to commonwealth/other migration and Brexit is now more commonly not see as the racist/extremist thing that Remain campaigners said it was (but no doubt containing small elements of such, as in all walks) i.e. after Brexit migrant applications from EU on equal standing as from elsewhere, your Labour count reference is IMO a distortion, similar to how Labour secured a relatively high number of votes in 2017 due to the promise of writing off student debts.



Hi 1nv,

You can manipulate the stats in various ways to suit your own agenda, my point was only in relation to the notion that most Labour voters support Brexit, which they don’t and by a large majority at that!

Re: Labour Party members supporting Remain - see attached.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegr ... posed/amp/

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110177

Postby beeswax » January 13th, 2018, 1:17 pm

johnhemming wrote:
beeswax wrote:
johnhemming wrote:The key element to a democracy is the ability to vote for people other than those in power and if the majority of people wish to so do then remove from power those in power.

Hence when political leaders lose power their bodies don't float down the Thames.


John, you are absolutely right and so how can you square that position with membership of the EU whereby UK voters cannot vote to remove the 5 Presidents or overturn the will of the European Parliament as we are so few in number?


All trade agreements (Including the WTO) involve limits on sovereignty. That is why there are agreements. Otherwise each country could do exactly what it wants to do.

The decisions in the EU are made by the council of ministers on which we currently have a representative and by the European Parliament to which we elect members.

If we join the TPP now called the CPTPP (which has been a government proposal) then we don't have directly elected representatives and it is all about fixes in back rooms. We don't have the transparency of the EU processes.

Do you have figures on the votes in the European Parliament and how many of them have had all the UK MEPS on one side, but that side has lost.

My guess it that there have been no votes where all of the UK MEPs were on one side. If there were I would think we were on the winning side.


John, no, you are again wrong my friend..

Being part of a trading bloc does not involve loss of sovereignty where countries laws and borders can be under foreign control like the EU has. All the other trading blocs don't have that and OK there may well be rules about trade in goods and services that may involve compromise but that is an agreement by the host country and not someone else and we can decide OR not to participate. We don't have that freedom in the EU and with the QMV we can be outvoted and that is the point and not whether one bloke like Blair can sell out our rebate without asking anyone else but because its late and he's tired and wan't to go to bed etc. The UK MEP's can have no influence on any major votes in the EP and that is why its not democratic for the UK as the voters have no DIRECT control over that process. And can't remove members of other countries either.

Cameron didn't want Juncker but he got outvoted anyway... The British people can get rid of our Prime Minister at the ballot box where we can't with any other leader in the EU Commission no matter how bad they may be...

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110178

Postby Sundance13 » January 13th, 2018, 1:20 pm

beeswax wrote:
Sundance13 wrote:Hi Mike,

Will respond to the rest of your post later, but re:Labour voters supporting Remain, here’s the breakdown of voting at the referendum, specifically on party preference:

A majority of those who backed the Conservative in 2015 voted to leave the EU (58%), as did more than 19 out of 20 UKIP supporters. Nearly two thirds of Labour and SNP voters (63% and 64%), seven in ten Liberal Democrats and three quarters of Greens, voted to remain.


https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/h ... d-and-why/


Hi Dan,

But the vast remain vote in London would distort those figures and even so the leave vote won and as even Philip Hammond has said just now, it's time for the EU and all the remainers to stop harping back to a revote or change of mind and lets just get on with leaving the EU and the opportunities that will present itself....and for him to say that is quite significant...

The only problem we had was the remainers would not accept the vote as they should in a democratic country and IF it doesn't go according to plan as they suggest then its really very easy. Organise another EU vote in say 10 years time when the young generation that voted to remain in large numbers can see for themselves and have another go..

It is NOT irreversible as some make out as the vote to join the Common Market wasn't. OK the conditions for re entry may change but I think we would have lost the rebate at some time and even joining the single currency. But the young may love that idea anyway...no need to change your pounds into Euro's anymore when you go on your hols....;)



Yep London would distort the vote, as would age (more young people vote Labour), but as I said to 1nv, facts are facts and the fact in this case is that a large majority of Labour voters support Remain. If you were to say the majority of Labour voters who live north of the M4 and are over 50 support Brexit, you may have a point.

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110180

Postby beeswax » January 13th, 2018, 1:25 pm

Sundance13 wrote:
1nv35t wrote:
Sundance13 wrote:Most Labour voters are Remainers Mike, as are the large majority of Labour Party members.

Measured on a constitute basis, 70%+ majority voted Leave at the referendum. By all measures Leave had the majority, the best Remain case being the count of individual votes. The count of those that voted to Leave was the highest of any vote. If a single political party won anywhere near a similar number of votes at a General Election it would be a dictatorship. As many of those who vote Labour are more likely to socially be at the worst end of the UK being in the EU (greater job competition from lower paid EU migrants such as plumbers), I can't see how your claim that the majority of Labour Party members support Remain. Excepting perhaps if they'd believed the Remain proclamations during the campaign that Brexit was a racist/extremist choice. Since the referendum that along with other ridiculous claims by Remain have been demonstrated as being wrong and accordingly many former Remain voters have switched to preferring to Leave. Yet other former Remain voters accept the majority decision and just want to get on with it asap (eliminate the uncertainties that is economically damaging). In the event of another referendum the likelihood is for a considerably increased support for Leave (historically, when referendums have been repeated the general outcome has been to see increased numbers of the former majority choice, simple statements of ... we chose so get on with it).

I suspect that many Labour voters with commonwealth/non-EU family roots were more inclined to vote Remain at the referendum. Given that membership of the EU is a barrier to commonwealth/other migration and Brexit is now more commonly not see as the racist/extremist thing that Remain campaigners said it was (but no doubt containing small elements of such, as in all walks) i.e. after Brexit migrant applications from EU on equal standing as from elsewhere, your Labour count reference is IMO a distortion, similar to how Labour secured a relatively high number of votes in 2017 due to the promise of writing off student debts.



Hi 1nv,

You can manipulate the stats in various ways to suit your own agenda, my point was only in relation to the notion that most Labour voters support Brexit, which they don’t and by a large majority at that!

Re: Labour Party members supporting Remain - see attached.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegr ... posed/amp/


Dan, you keep making a major error my friend..

The fact that many leave labour supporters voted for Labour at the GE does not mean they support remain...Many UKIP voters went over to Labour because they said they support the referendum result...There are many university towns that were overwhelmingly remain but they are not representative of most others and especially in the North of England..

The real point though is they lost and it really is time they moved on....I think the more closer it gets to March next year, the more they will get used to the idea that we are leaving. I also forecast that we will get a decent trade deal if only because it's in their own interest, probably more than ours imo....Its why parliament will vote for it as well...

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110182

Postby Sundance13 » January 13th, 2018, 1:27 pm

beeswax wrote:
johnhemming wrote:
beeswax wrote:
John, you are absolutely right and so how can you square that position with membership of the EU whereby UK voters cannot vote to remove the 5 Presidents or overturn the will of the European Parliament as we are so few in number?


All trade agreements (Including the WTO) involve limits on sovereignty. That is why there are agreements. Otherwise each country could do exactly what it wants to do.

The decisions in the EU are made by the council of ministers on which we currently have a representative and by the European Parliament to which we elect members.

If we join the TPP now called the CPTPP (which has been a government proposal) then we don't have directly elected representatives and it is all about fixes in back rooms. We don't have the transparency of the EU processes.

Do you have figures on the votes in the European Parliament and how many of them have had all the UK MEPS on one side, but that side has lost.

My guess it that there have been no votes where all of the UK MEPs were on one side. If there were I would think we were on the winning side.


John, no, you are again wrong my friend..

Being part of a trading bloc does not involve loss of sovereignty where countries laws and borders can be under foreign control like the EU has. All the other trading blocs don't have that and OK there may well be rules about trade in goods and services that may involve compromise but that is an agreement by the host country and not someone else and we can decide OR not to participate. We don't have that freedom in the EU and with the QMV we can be outvoted and that is the point and not whether one bloke like Blair can sell out our rebate without asking anyone else but because its late and he's tired and wan't to go to bed etc. The UK MEP's can have no influence on any major votes in the EP and that is why its not democratic for the UK as the voters have no DIRECT control over that process. And can't remove members of other countries either.

Cameron didn't want Juncker but he got outvoted anyway... The British people can get rid of our Prime Minister at the ballot box where we can't with any other leader in the EU Commission no matter how bad they may be...



Hi Mike,

All free trade deals involve some loss of sovereignty, however free trade deals like CETA, tend to primarily focus on tariff removal so the requirement to pool sovereignty is lower. Even with CETA though there is a joint arbitration body though, akin to an ECJ-lite.

Trade blocks like TPP involve a greater loss of sovereignty as you’re incorporating more countries, along with representation for multi national organisations, who have the power to sue National Govts if they don’t adhere by the blocks rules - big loss of sovereignty!

The EU Single Market does involve the biggest pooling of sovereignty of all, however it removes not just tariffs, but non tariff barriers and provides greater access for services than any of the above trade deals/blocks. The price for this is a bigger loss of sovereignty.

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110186

Postby Sundance13 » January 13th, 2018, 1:33 pm

beeswax wrote:
Sundance13 wrote:
1nv35t wrote:Measured on a constitute basis, 70%+ majority voted Leave at the referendum. By all measures Leave had the majority, the best Remain case being the count of individual votes. The count of those that voted to Leave was the highest of any vote. If a single political party won anywhere near a similar number of votes at a General Election it would be a dictatorship. As many of those who vote Labour are more likely to socially be at the worst end of the UK being in the EU (greater job competition from lower paid EU migrants such as plumbers), I can't see how your claim that the majority of Labour Party members support Remain. Excepting perhaps if they'd believed the Remain proclamations during the campaign that Brexit was a racist/extremist choice. Since the referendum that along with other ridiculous claims by Remain have been demonstrated as being wrong and accordingly many former Remain voters have switched to preferring to Leave. Yet other former Remain voters accept the majority decision and just want to get on with it asap (eliminate the uncertainties that is economically damaging). In the event of another referendum the likelihood is for a considerably increased support for Leave (historically, when referendums have been repeated the general outcome has been to see increased numbers of the former majority choice, simple statements of ... we chose so get on with it).

I suspect that many Labour voters with commonwealth/non-EU family roots were more inclined to vote Remain at the referendum. Given that membership of the EU is a barrier to commonwealth/other migration and Brexit is now more commonly not see as the racist/extremist thing that Remain campaigners said it was (but no doubt containing small elements of such, as in all walks) i.e. after Brexit migrant applications from EU on equal standing as from elsewhere, your Labour count reference is IMO a distortion, similar to how Labour secured a relatively high number of votes in 2017 due to the promise of writing off student debts.



Hi 1nv,

You can manipulate the stats in various ways to suit your own agenda, my point was only in relation to the notion that most Labour voters support Brexit, which they don’t and by a large majority at that!

Re: Labour Party members supporting Remain - see attached.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegr ... posed/amp/


Dan, you keep making a major error my friend..

The fact that many leave labour supporters voted for Labour at the GE does not mean they support remain...Many UKIP voters went over to Labour because they said they support the referendum result...There are many university towns that were overwhelmingly remain but they are not representative of most others and especially in the North of England..

The real point though is they lost and it really is time they moved on....I think the more closer it gets to March next year, the more they will get used to the idea that we are leaving. I also forecast that we will get a decent trade deal if only because it's in their own interest, probably more than ours imo....Its why parliament will vote for it as well...


Hi Mike,

Sorry mate you’re wrong, the figures on the link I gave were based on voting at the 2015 election, not last years election. It showed a clear majority, two thirds in fact of Labour voters at the 2015 election, voted Remain. I’m surprised you’re surprised by this as I thought it was a pretty well established fact.

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Re: Sovereignty of Parliament

#110194

Postby Sundance13 » January 13th, 2018, 1:51 pm


You say that the EU has no effect on our day to day lives but again that is incorrect.

We cannot bail out our industries and have to have competitive tendering throughout the EU where foreign nations win these contracts while our industries close down and lay of thousands of people and those skills are lost forever and no wonder our manufacturing GDP is so low. I am reading today that Germany have been awarded a MOD contract worth 3bn...So our social security bill goes up and that means less money elsewhere. Immigrant housing and other benefits are immense and so that once again is dictated by the EU freedom of movement. Roads, Schools, hospitals, GP's all affected by immigration where we can't even know what numbers may come month by month...That is a DIRECT result of EU membership!


The billion a month we pay for membership could go to the NHS immediately and social care. We have NO control on how many EU citizens can come here or vote down EU directives in parliament that affects every single business in the UK even if they don't sell anything to the EU...

People keep saying the UK does not know what it wants from the EU and they are deaf and blind if that's the case.

The PM has laid out that vision two or three times now and that is seamless trade access for goods and services that benefit both the UK and the EU and have a close special relationship on all other issues like security, environment and other things.

Its the EU that is saying we can't have these things and not the UK....and why the remainers need to READ what the PM says and not make things up...and you are doing exactly the same thing my friend....Remember the EU sell us 70 thousand million pounds worth of goods more than we sell to them.....Its they that should be begging for a trade deal and not us...

I do agree we have poor negotiators that have been hissing about since the referendum vote and we should NOT have agreed with the EU agenda and made it clear it has to be a trade deal first and foremost as that affects everything else like the NI border for example.

So the MAJORITY of us know exactly what we want from Brexit..

Control of our laws, our borders and our money and a trade deal based on the existing model. Something most leave MP''s and Cabinet Ministers are repeating the whole time....

What's so difficult to understand?

ATB

Mike



Hi Mike,

You mention the EU destroying industries and jobs, yet we have near record low unemployment and skills shortages in a number of sectors, which EU migration has helped to plug. There are upsides to immigration as well as downsides. You mention getting back control of our borders, yet we supposedly have that for non EU migration already yet we have even more of that each year than EU migration, so where’s the control!!
There’s no point in having a control of it doesn’t work!

As for control of laws, yes ideally it would be good to lose the ECJs supremacy over our laws, EFTA/EEA would deliver this though, without the economic hit of an FTA or no deal scenario.

As for control of money, all I know is we’ll control less than when we were members unless May pulls off the deal of the century.! I know you think she’ll manage this, but I cannot see why the EU would allow us to leave but keep all the benefits of membership without the obligations, it’s delusional I’m afraid, how would you feel if you were a member state or EEA member and the U.K. got such a deal? You’d be livid! No way we’ll get that deal through all 27 members and the EU Parliament, not a chance in hell.


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