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Rivers of Blood

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BobbyD
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Re: Rivers of Blood

#132571

Postby BobbyD » April 16th, 2018, 3:31 pm

avconway wrote:No, while noting your pun, I cannot see any read-across between gender and religion in the way you describe. Gender is a function of genes and/or chromosomes, and thus is like skin colour (or “race”), these attributes are both “accidents” decided in the womb, and therefore quite beyond the individual's determination.


Sex is a function of your genes, Gender is a construct.

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Re: Rivers of Blood

#132572

Postby avconway » April 16th, 2018, 3:36 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:Even at the peak under Labour in 2007 the net migration figure was only 273,000 .....


I hasten to make the point that the key problem stemming from immigration – in any society, be it the UK or a Papuan tribe – flows from the reluctance, the refusal, or the inability of incomers to integrate with the host community. From lack of integration we get the fragmentation of society, lack of cohesion, the living of parallel lives - and the tensions and chips-on-the-shoulder that grow from these.

Lack of integration is a function of:-
a) the attitudes and dispositions of both incomers and hosts, and
b) the numbers of incomers to be assimilated.

That being so, I suggest that quoting figures for net immigration is not merely irrelevant, it's actually counter-productive, because it hides from us the real numbers of incomers that the host community struggles to digest.

Gross, not net, immigration is what we must look at - that shows the real size of the task, and in the UK gross immigration has been running at about 630,000 pa, i.e. over 2¼ times the size of the problem that ursaminortaur's net figures might indicate.

The 'melting pot' might assimilate 100,000 newcomers a year, but 600,000???

No wonder that 50 years after Powell's speech of warning Prof Ted Cantle is again high-lighting the fragmentation of British society. Powell warned against it in 1968, Cantle in 2001, and Cantle again 2014

From the Guardian, 11 Dec 2001:-
Quote:- "The main points of the Cantle report, commissioned by the home secretary, David Blunkett, after the race riots in Bradford, Oldham and Burnley, were:
· The towns showed a "depth of polarisation" around segregated communities living "a series of parallel lives".
· Further violence is likely if government, police and community leaders fail to break this polarisation.
(End of extract)

Ted Cantle, in the Daily Telegraph, 11 Jun 2014 (my emphasis):-

Quote:- “Thirteen years ago I coined the phrase “parallel lives” to describe the segregation of Asian and white communities in the riot-torn towns of northern England.

“People from different communities did not live in the same areas, work in the same places, or share social and cultural activities.

More importantly, they did not go to school together.

“My worry is that, as the criticism of schools in the Muslim communities of Birmingham has demonstrated, nothing has changed since my report in 2001.

(End of extract.)


In the battle for societal cohesiveness Britain has shot herself in the foot with two barrels:-
firstly, the various race relations and anti-discrimination laws have blunted the elbows of Britons, who have become afraid to say "boo", and have signalled to incomers that they need not integrate, they may come to Britain and continue to do their own alien thing, and

secondly, successive British politicians, Ministers of Education and faith leaders have worked against the inter-mixing and integration of schoolchildren. This truly is madness.

avconway

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Re: Rivers of Blood

#132575

Postby avconway » April 16th, 2018, 3:47 pm

BobbyD wrote:Sex is a function of your genes, Gender is a construct.


Thank you Bobby, I'm grateful to have the distinction pointed out.

A surgical construct would that be? To re-align one's xx chromosomes or xy chromosomes?

avconway

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Re: Rivers of Blood

#132578

Postby ursaminortaur » April 16th, 2018, 3:50 pm

avconway wrote:
JMN2 wrote:avconway, that makes sense, and if one is able to define one's gender willy-nilly then surely religion is just a question of one's mood for that day.


No, while noting your pun, I cannot see any read-across between gender and religion in the way you describe. Gender is a function of genes and/or chromosomes, and thus is like skin colour (or “race”), these attributes are both “accidents” decided in the womb, and therefore quite beyond the individual's determination.

What is done in the womb cannot be undone however much an individual might wish for a different gender or skin colour. He /she has no choice, he is lumbered with whatever gender or race he's got.

Religion in contrast is well within an individual's ability to determine. Religious dogma is learned or is imposed upon one after escaping from the womb, and what is learned can be unlearned, even over breakfast. Or before breakfast: “Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast," said the White Queen.

“I was born with a black skin,” may be a true statement, but “I was born imbued with Islamic, Christian, Jewish, or Hindu beliefs etc” is always nonsense.

avconway



Avconway,

You appear to be confusing Biological sex with Gender the former is as you say a function of the genes/chromosomes the latter is a social construct.

http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-sex-and-gender/

• Sex depends on the anatomy. Gender depends on the society or culture.
• Male and female are sex categories. Masculine and feminine are gender categories.


http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

Sex refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.
Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine.


https://www.simplypsychology.org/gender-biology.html

People often get confused between the terms sex and gender. Sex refers to biological differences between males and females. For example, chromosomes (female XX, male XY), reproductive organs (ovaries, testes), hormones (oestrogen, testosterone).
Gender refers to the cultural differences expected (by society / culture) of men and women according to their sex. A person’s sex does not change from birth, but their gender can.


And as to JMN2's point I haven't looked into the issue very deeply but as I understand it the changes being sought to the Gender Recognition Act would just remove the requirement for medical alteration to have been completed. I think this is already the case in some other countries such as ROI. There would still be a legal process to go through to have a gender change recognised so it wouldn't be a case of changing gender willy-nilly. Someone wouldn't be able to be legally Male one day, Female the next and Male the day after that.

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Re: Rivers of Blood

#132584

Postby BobbyD » April 16th, 2018, 4:21 pm

avconway wrote:
BobbyD wrote:Sex is a function of your genes, Gender is a construct.


Thank you Bobby, I'm grateful to have the distinction pointed out.

A surgical construct would that be? To re-align one's xx chromosomes or xy chromosomes?

avconway


No sex is more hardware based, gender is more software.

Sex is what you are physically. It's your genes, your secondary sexual characteristics etc. eg. genotype and phenotype.

(...and even here it isn't as simple as XX and XY. Not only can you get X, XXY, XYY and many other combinations of abnormal numbers of sex chromosones but even plain old XX and XY aren't perfectly predictive with Swyer syndrome for instance producing sterile individuals with XY genotype but female genitalia.)

Gender might be used in a number of ways but it is more closely aligned to a sense of identity. That might be the individuals sense of identity (I was born X but have always felt Y, Z or 7), or society's view of what constitutes a man/woman eg. gender roles and expectations. Think of the difference it would have on your life if you were born with an XX genotype in Sweden or Saudi, you might be the same person but it isn't the same thing.


Damn.. should just have cribbed the dictionary...

sex
NOUN

2Either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

‘adults of both sexes’


- https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sex

gender
NOUN
1Either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.



- https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gender

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Re: Rivers of Blood

#132615

Postby ursaminortaur » April 16th, 2018, 5:59 pm

avconway wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:Even at the peak under Labour in 2007 the net migration figure was only 273,000 .....


I hasten to make the point that the key problem stemming from immigration – in any society, be it the UK or a Papuan tribe – flows from the reluctance, the refusal, or the inability of incomers to integrate with the host community. From lack of integration we get the fragmentation of society, lack of cohesion, the living of parallel lives - and the tensions and chips-on-the-shoulder that grow from these.

Lack of integration is a function of:-
a) the attitudes and dispositions of both incomers and hosts, and
b) the numbers of incomers to be assimilated.

That being so, I suggest that quoting figures for net immigration is not merely irrelevant, it's actually counter-productive, because it hides from us the real numbers of incomers that the host community struggles to digest.

Gross, not net, immigration is what we must look at - that shows the real size of the task, and in the UK gross immigration has been running at about 630,000 pa, i.e. over 2¼ times the size of the problem that ursaminortaur's net figures might indicate.

The 'melting pot' might assimilate 100,000 newcomers a year, but 600,000???

No wonder that 50 years after Powell's speech of warning Prof Ted Cantle is again high-lighting the fragmentation of British society. Powell warned against it in 1968, Cantle in 2001, and Cantle again 2014

From the Guardian, 11 Dec 2001:-
Quote:- "The main points of the Cantle report, commissioned by the home secretary, David Blunkett, after the race riots in Bradford, Oldham and Burnley, were:
· The towns showed a "depth of polarisation" around segregated communities living "a series of parallel lives".
· Further violence is likely if government, police and community leaders fail to break this polarisation.
(End of extract)
(End of extract.)


In the battle for societal cohesiveness Britain has shot herself in the foot with two barrels:-
firstly, the various race relations and anti-discrimination laws have blunted the elbows of Britons, who have become afraid to say "boo", and have signalled to incomers that they need not integrate, they may come to Britain and continue to do their own alien thing, and

secondly, successive British politicians, Ministers of Education and faith leaders have worked against the inter-mixing and integration of schoolchildren. This truly is madness.


Isn't that segregation a symptom of the racial intolerence which Powell's speech encouraged. Almost a self-fulfilling prophesy heighten racial tensions causing the immigrant community to retreat into itself for protection. In contrast how much segregation is there amongst
American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, French, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Danish, Polish emigrants to this country ?
Certain cities may have large communities of Polish, Italian etc descent but they aren't really segregated.

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Re: Rivers of Blood

#132703

Postby bruncher » April 17th, 2018, 5:39 am

ursaminortaur wrote

Isn't that segregation a symptom of the racial intolerence which Powell's speech encouraged.


I now think that it is the choice of some 'communities' not to integrate, rather than prejudice from the hosts.

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Re: Rivers of Blood

#136063

Postby bruncher » May 1st, 2018, 4:49 pm

It is a remarkable conjunction: 50 years anniversary since the 'Rivers of Blood' speech; the current 'Windrush scandal' and resignation of the Home Secretary Amber Rudd; followed by the appointment of Sajid Javid to the post of Home Secretary, all within a few weeks.


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