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Tory members want no deal Brexit

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johnhemming
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Re: Tory members want no deal Brexit

#192002

Postby johnhemming » January 8th, 2019, 6:33 pm

Lootman wrote:You mean after 3 years of Project Fear some of it actually rubbed off?

The question is a simple one.

You put a blindfold on and jump off something. Do you fall 1" or off a cliff?

Hence the question is one as to the accuracy of predictions. Will the EU suddenly offer us sufficient cake so that we can eat our cake and still have it or will they stick to what they have said publicly.

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Re: Tory members want no deal Brexit

#192541

Postby Ashfordian » January 10th, 2019, 8:03 pm

Looks like Tory associations & members are sick of their views being ignored by their elected representatives and are now working on deselecting those treacherous MP's

The MP for Grantham and Stamford Nick Boles is at the top of the list but surely won't be the only one...

dionaeamuscipula
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Re: Tory members want no deal Brexit

#193046

Postby dionaeamuscipula » January 12th, 2019, 4:19 pm

Lootman wrote:The reality is that there is no reason to believe that non-voters think any differently from voters.


Actually there is, if you look at turnout in the 2016 election by age. Turnout was dramatically lower in the younger age groups than the older age groups, and remain voting was dramatically higher in the younger age groups than in the older. So there is at least some support for a postulation that non-voters were more likely to be remain supporters than leave supporters. I can't find anything to suggest that amongst young age groups that one or other set of supporters were more motivated to vote than the other.

Of course this doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

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Sundance13
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Re: Tory members want no deal Brexit

#193047

Postby Sundance13 » January 12th, 2019, 4:22 pm

Ashfordian wrote:Looks like Tory associations & members are sick of their views being ignored by their elected representatives and are now working on deselecting those treacherous MP's

The MP for Grantham and Stamford Nick Boles is at the top of the list but surely won't be the only one...



Why is Boles a traitor? He’s come out in favour of Mays deal hasn’t he, supporting a Norway type exit only in the event Mays deal is rejected. Either way he is upholding the 2016 vote.

Is a traitor now anyone who doesn’t actively support a no deal? If so the goalposts have moved significantly since 2016, hats off to the ERG & their tabloid henchmen for radicalising nearly half the U.K. population.

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Re: Tory members want no deal Brexit

#193050

Postby dionaeamuscipula » January 12th, 2019, 4:31 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:In March 1979 Scotland voted for independence by 52% to 48% but since only 32.9% of the electorate had voted for independence the vote was ignored and Scotland remained part of the UK.


The "Scotland says Eh?" campaign, run by a low profile student group of slackers, malcontents and future bulletin board lounge lizards was dramatically successful in promoting apathy in this campaign.

Meanwhile in the other union bar, a future party leader was starting his political career.

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Charlottesquare
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Re: Tory members want no deal Brexit

#193068

Postby Charlottesquare » January 12th, 2019, 5:23 pm

Ashfordian wrote:Looks like Tory associations & members are sick of their views being ignored by their elected representatives and are now working on deselecting those treacherous MP's

The MP for Grantham and Stamford Nick Boles is at the top of the list but surely won't be the only one...


That would be excellent news, enough deselections and we increase the chance of a realignment of the political parties upon Brexit lines, then , maybe, some progress might be made.

ursaminortaur
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Re: Tory members want no deal Brexit

#193077

Postby ursaminortaur » January 12th, 2019, 6:33 pm

Charlottesquare wrote:
Ashfordian wrote:Looks like Tory associations & members are sick of their views being ignored by their elected representatives and are now working on deselecting those treacherous MP's

The MP for Grantham and Stamford Nick Boles is at the top of the list but surely won't be the only one...


That would be excellent news, enough deselections and we increase the chance of a realignment of the political parties upon Brexit lines, then , maybe, some progress might be made.


Personally I'm worried about deselections. Although they are party members MPs are elected as individuals - some having great personal followings.
Hence I'm concerned by the idea of a party deselecting an elected candidate and replacing them with a party hack.
Thus if there is a deselection of an MP I think that should automatically trigger a by-election for that seat so that the electorate can decide whether to support the new party appointee for MP - ideally with the sitting MP able to contest it as an independent.
That is also why I'm not in favour of systems of PR which utilise party lists.

Charlottesquare
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Re: Tory members want no deal Brexit

#193100

Postby Charlottesquare » January 12th, 2019, 8:35 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Charlottesquare wrote:
Ashfordian wrote:Looks like Tory associations & members are sick of their views being ignored by their elected representatives and are now working on deselecting those treacherous MP's

The MP for Grantham and Stamford Nick Boles is at the top of the list but surely won't be the only one...


That would be excellent news, enough deselections and we increase the chance of a realignment of the political parties upon Brexit lines, then , maybe, some progress might be made.


Personally I'm worried about deselections. Although they are party members MPs are elected as individuals - some having great personal followings.
Hence I'm concerned by the idea of a party deselecting an elected candidate and replacing them with a party hack.
Thus if there is a deselection of an MP I think that should automatically trigger a by-election for that seat so that the electorate can decide whether to support the new party appointee for MP - ideally with the sitting MP able to contest it as an independent.
That is also why I'm not in favour of systems of PR which utilise party lists.


I am not seeing independents here, what I want to see is the Conservatives being stupid enough to mass deselect and all of the deselected, and others from the centre ground, form a new party that splits the Conservative vote. The party system as it stands does not work, certainly with the Brexit issue.

How the timing of all this goes, hard to tell, and someone has to tell T Blair etc that he is not that useful to a new central realignment so could he go away for a few years, but a merged middle ground party could possibly help give a place for those like myself to vote, because right now The Conservatives, my natural party ,are not getting my vote but nor are Labour, in fact I have the gloomy perspective of having to vote for the Nats (Brrrr)

johnhemming
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Re: Tory members want no deal Brexit

#193102

Postby johnhemming » January 12th, 2019, 8:38 pm

Which is why we really need an electoral system that enables people to vote for parties they want to get elected rather than voting against those who they wish to prevent winning.

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Re: Tory members want no deal Brexit

#193220

Postby Charlottesquare » January 13th, 2019, 1:25 pm

johnhemming wrote:Which is why we really need an electoral system that enables people to vote for parties they want to get elected rather than voting against those who they wish to prevent winning.


Agreed, but you tried that one with the perfidious Conservatives.

The only way the self interested Labour and Conservative parties are going to play ball re electoral reform is when the electorate convinces them that they are very unlikely to get anywhere with FPTP, the Liberals and their predecessors ought to be able to fill that role, I had hope for them in the early 1980s when listening to David Steel speak at Edinburgh University a few weeks after the "go back to your constituencies and prepare for government speech", but sorry, you are serial disapointers, the party at grass roots has too many pet little projects amongst groups, it lacks steel, and the decision to go into coalition with the Conservatives was politically inept, you would have done far better agreeing support on a conscience/belief basis, being true to your voters, than what you did- the price has been painful.

Whilst I do not agree with the end goal of the Nats, and still gaze in wonder at how they can adapt their message across very different sections of Scottish society, poor and comfortably off, they have steel, political nous, a near dictatorship over their MPs and MSPs that has brought them results, I suspect I would see hell freezing over before they entered an arrangement with the Conservatives.

I am afraid a new, harder, determined centre party is needed, as both the others peel left and right there is a void, but it needs to be a conviction party re core beliefs that sticks to its guns, it needs to be capable of disarming the Nats in Scotland and appealing to the centre ground in England, a tall ask. The alternative is a solely English (and Welsh) centre party, which then has less need to modify its message re up here, but parties splitting by geography have a fair chance of splitting up the UK- the federal idea could work but right now convincing the English that regional blocks is the way to go is a non starter.

As a start, peeling the Scottish Conservatives, Labour and Liberals from the whip in Westminster might be an idea, not sure why the Scottish Conservatives are being so quiet re Brexit (after a flurry of dissent) but imho if they back May's deal or allow No Deal they can kiss goodbye to all progress made in recent years in Scotland- same, to a degree with Labour, if Corbyn will not take a strong position and No Deal slips into play, they are plummeting back down a snake when they have just managed a small ascent up a ladder, the Nats will eat both of them alive.

The Liberals ought to be able to make capital up here as a Remain party but they are invisible- did you send Willie Rennie on holiday?


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