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Brexit all over?

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XFool
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Re: Brexit all over?

#215236

Postby XFool » April 15th, 2019, 5:30 pm

I have to say, the above post by tikunetih summarises what I instinctively felt might be the case after the result of the referendum. If this actually proves to be a correct analysis then we have troubled times coming to the UK. Never mind about frustrating the "Will of the People".
Last edited by XFool on April 15th, 2019, 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215237

Postby dionaeamuscipula » April 15th, 2019, 5:30 pm

XFool wrote:
In other words - is this about real material, possibly long term, grievances or (incredibly?) some kind of imaginary grievances. A bizarre, grievance culture?

Honestly, I don't know. Anyone here live in Sunderland who can add insight?


We in the UK are (or at least we were a couple of years ago), richer, healthier, and safer than we have ever been before. And yet we are among the unhappiest people in Europe.

I have no real idea why.

DM

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215239

Postby XFool » April 15th, 2019, 5:34 pm

dionaeamuscipula wrote:
XFool wrote:
In other words - is this about real material, possibly long term, grievances or (incredibly?) some kind of imaginary grievances. A bizarre, grievance culture?

Honestly, I don't know. Anyone here live in Sunderland who can add insight?

We in the UK are (or at least we were a couple of years ago), richer, healthier, and safer than we have ever been before.

Of course, this is doubtless on average. How those blessings are distributed is another matter. Also, wrt Sunderland, perhaps the missing piece is change, especially rapid change in a generation and its potential for social disruption.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215242

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » April 15th, 2019, 5:41 pm

XFool wrote:Honestly, I don't know. Anyone here live in Sunderland who can add insight?

I really don't think you need to focus on Sunderland at all, XFool. You could do similar interviews in other places and find similarities....and more emphasis to my underlying view, that referenda on anything at all are meaningless. That is, people are just using it as desperate way of seeking representation, but they are confused as what exactly their vote does indeed represent.

tikunetih wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:Democracy or the mob rules?


Bit harsh.

Not in my intended context, to earlier posters, who seem to form the view that the Referendum=Democracy=therefore we must act.

tikunetih wrote:They're throwing out the thing that at worst played no part in the plight of their region, and at best marginally helped improve things there. Simultaneously, they've exposed themselves even more so to the incompetence of UK Government who've failed them for decades...

It's a cruel tragedy that they've voted, albeit unwittingly, to materially worsen their own and their children's futures.

Indeed, so let's help them out and revoke A50, and apologise for encouraging Nigel Farage's cry to nationalism to be misinterpreted as a tribalist call to all those low income, disempowered millions as the true path to richness and justice.

Matt

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215252

Postby Spet0789 » April 15th, 2019, 6:45 pm

I think a number of people on this thread have issues distinguishing between democracy and majoritarianism.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215284

Postby tikunetih » April 15th, 2019, 10:18 pm

XFool wrote:I have to say, the above post by tikunetih summarises what I instinctively felt might be the case after the result of the referendum. If this actually proves to be a correct analysis then we have troubled times coming to the UK.


Seems we're in decent company; read this interview with Ken Clarke, whose pragmatism is admirable:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ory-europe

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215304

Postby SteMiS » April 15th, 2019, 11:50 pm

XFool wrote:Honestly, I don't know. Anyone here live in Sunderland who can add insight?

I don't live in Sunderland but I live in Newcastle (although born in West Yorkshire). I'm not sure what I can add. In the last 20 years I've never visited Sunderland once. There's really nothing to attract anyone from outside the City; not the shopping, not the social life, not attractions, not history. It's a city which rose on the back of shipbuilding and coal mining and their loss left it without a reason to exist. Most of the successful people I've met in the area from Sunderland, don't live there. Inevitably as those who can, move, those that are left are those without the means or imagination to leave. People just don't really move there to live, so there's a kind of insularity about the place. The views in the video don't surprise me at all.

I don't think our system of government helps places like Sunderland. There's little electoral advantage for the Conservatives to do anything there. They are probably unlikely to ever win a seat there, or in the surrounding countryside. There's little electoral advantage for Labour either as they are probably unlikely to lose one either.

As a city it's very much in the shadow of Newcastle and there's probably some resentment about that.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215312

Postby JoyofBrex8889 » April 16th, 2019, 6:10 am

Spet0789 wrote:I think a number of people on this thread have issues distinguishing between democracy and majoritarianism.


Democracy relies on forming a majority. Democracy is inherently majoritarian. That’s a feature, not a bug. Pretending that democracy is not ultimately majoritarian makes you look foolish.

You say the rest of us have issues. Perhaps the real issue is those unwilling to accept the legitimate democratic choice made in 2016.

When a majority agree a decision after long debate, I respect it as democratic, even if it is not what I want. What do you? It seems you pronounce it as majoritarian.

Are the majority wrong to have decided?

Should a minority overrule a majority?

How do you propose we make decisions if a clear majority is no longer decisive?

If you are no longer allowing a majority to make a decision, then who is actually permitted to make a decision?

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215313

Postby JoyofBrex8889 » April 16th, 2019, 6:23 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
It's a cruel tragedy that they've voted, albeit unwittingly, to materially worsen their own and their children's futures.



Indeed, so let's help them out and revoke A50, and apologise for encouraging Nigel Farage's cry to nationalism to be misinterpreted as a tribalist call to all those low income, disempowered millions as the true path to richness and justice.

Matt


The arrogance of this statement took my breath away.

Who knows best his mind?

The hopeful voter, using his autonomy, carefully ticking his box, in order that he may have his say on who wields power?

Or you, who deny our Sunderland voter an intellect and seek to “help them out” by preventing the execution of the instructions given by the ballot so hopefully cast?

One of you is wrong here, and it isn’t the guy who voted.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215314

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » April 16th, 2019, 6:29 am

JoyofBrex8889 wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
It's a cruel tragedy that they've voted, albeit unwittingly, to materially worsen their own and their children's futures.



Indeed, so let's help them out and revoke A50, and apologise for encouraging Nigel Farage's cry to nationalism to be misinterpreted as a tribalist call to all those low income, disempowered millions as the true path to richness and justice.

Matt


The sickening arrogance of this statement takes my breath away.

Who knows best his mind?

The hopeful voter, using his autonomy, carefully ticking his box, in order that he may have his say on who wields power?

Or you, who deny our Sunderland voter an intellect and seek to “help them out” by preventing the execution of the instructions given by the ballot so hopefully cast?

One of you is wrong here, and it isn’t the guy who voted.

Did you watch all the video I linked in the here?

Post back when you have.

Take care,
Matt

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215315

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » April 16th, 2019, 6:42 am

JoyofBrex8889 wrote:One of you is wrong here, and it isn’t the guy who voted.

It is the guy who voted. If you watch the video I linked you'll be able to confess that the majority in the clip did not use their vote to make a decision on EU membership. They used the vote as a protest vote again London, Capitalism, the N-S divide etc. etc.

I'm not vaguely sorry that you think I deny our Sunderland voter an intellect. I'd like to deny anybody not suitably qualified to exert such an influence on economic power over me. I don't care whether they are from Sunderland or Bethnal Green, if they can't even understand exactly what they are meant to be voting for, or won't, then their contribution to this thing you call Democracy is destructive.

So sorry,
Matt

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215318

Postby JoyofBrex8889 » April 16th, 2019, 7:03 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
JoyofBrex8889 wrote:One of you is wrong here, and it isn’t the guy who voted.

It is the guy who voted. If you watch the video I linked you'll be able to confess that the majority in the clip did not use their vote to make a decision on EU membership. They used the vote as a protest vote again London, Capitalism, the N-S divide etc. etc.

I'm not vaguely sorry that you think I deny our Sunderland voter an intellect. I'd like to deny anybody not suitably qualified to exert such an influence on economic power over me. I don't care whether they are from Sunderland or Bethnal Green, if they can't even understand exactly what they are meant to be voting for, or won't, then their contribution to this thing you call Democracy is destructive.

So sorry,
Matt



This really is quite a naked denial of democracy.

And an insult to the voters: You openly refute the other voters choice because they make choices weighing different factors to your preferred reasoning.

Check yourself: we all have imperfect understanding of the world. None of us know the outcome. No human is completely rational. We live in an imperfect world. None the less us imperfect people must make difficult choices with imperfect information, and imperfect foresight of the consequences. The voters who you deny: they did as well as they could, as well as any person could. They cast their vote for what they hoped would be best for their futures. Who are you to say they were wrong?

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215333

Postby Wizard » April 16th, 2019, 8:33 am

Sundance13 wrote:
Wizard wrote:I think the unity of the EU 27 has been very impressive, but then they have not been put under much pressure from the UK.

Some may say that the Brexit negotiations were always doomed, I take a different view and I do believe May has done a pretty dreadful job of it. The most obvious and glaring mistake was, having lost her parliamentary majority, May failed to even consider that the deal she decided was a good one might not get through Parliament and that is what has resulted in us getting in to the pickle we are in. In this situation, where the approval from a higher authority was going to be needed it was madness to go in to the negotiations without understanding what would get through. I have spent the last fifteen years advising clients on M&A negotiations and I can't start to imagine suggesting a business go in and agree a deal that cannot be unpicked without knowing what the mandare from the board is.

Given the composition of Parliament after the election it was probably inevitable that there would be little option but to pursue a very soft Brexit. But flushing this out early in the process before negotiations had gone too far would at least have allowed May to understand her options a little better.

Ignoring the Parliamentary constraints (which of course May did) had the UK wanted to take a hard line in negotiations then IMHO it needed to take a different and rather more resolute approach. The most significant issue for the EU is the border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic and the need for the Irish to deliver a solution that does not result in any sort of border. That was the point of leverage the UK needed to utilise. To do that the UK needed to be willing to fully prepare for a no deal exit and as part of that to be willing to see a change in the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, and it needed the EU to believe it would be willing to follow through. Yes, there may well have been consequences in Northern Ireland, but one could have take the view that the Northern Irish tail should not be allowed to wag the UK dog.

Now the UK may well have not been willing to take this stance, indeed I am not saying I would have done so. But if the UK wanted to put any pressure on the EU then IMHO that is what it needed to do.

I think suggesting that the current situation was the inevitable end point is incorrect.



Wow, so your negotiating strategy would’ve in effect been to threaten peace in Ireland, if you don’t get what you want? And even if it had worked (which it wouldn’t have), exactly what would you have wanted and would you have got the majority of Brexiters to support it?

You may have noted that I did say that I specifically said "Now the UK may well have not been willing to take this stance, indeed I am not saying I would have done so." However, that said I do have a rather unfashionable and probably unpopular view on the matter. If the erection of some customs posts on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic drives some people to blow up some of their fellow citizens then I do not think it would be right to lay the blame for the deaths on those who put up the customs posts.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215335

Postby Wizard » April 16th, 2019, 8:36 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
JoyofBrex8889 wrote:One of you is wrong here, and it isn’t the guy who voted.

It is the guy who voted. If you watch the video I linked you'll be able to confess that the majority in the clip did not use their vote to make a decision on EU membership. They used the vote as a protest vote again London, Capitalism, the N-S divide etc. etc.

I'm not vaguely sorry that you think I deny our Sunderland voter an intellect. I'd like to deny anybody not suitably qualified to exert such an influence on economic power over me. I don't care whether they are from Sunderland or Bethnal Green, if they can't even understand exactly what they are meant to be voting for, or won't, then their contribution to this thing you call Democracy is destructive.

So sorry,
Matt

My bold and underlining.

Can you share your qualifications to exert influence on economic power over me?

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215343

Postby djbenedict » April 16th, 2019, 9:14 am

tikunetih wrote:It's a cruel tragedy that they've voted, albeit unwittingly, to materially worsen their own and their children's futures.


Yes, there is that. But they've also affected my life, and my children's lives through their ignorance. So, I have no sympathy whatever and I expect to continue to find a dark humour in the outcomes. For instance https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/diesel-brexit-blamed-nissan-scraps-plan-build-x-trail-sunderland ... despite the Leave.EU campaign tweeting "Project Fear claims Nissan would scale back UK operation could not have been further from the truth!".

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215344

Postby vrdiver » April 16th, 2019, 9:15 am

JoyofBrex8889 wrote:One of you is wrong here, and it isn’t the guy who voted.

That's your opinion.

The referendum was about whether to leave or remain in the EU. The video that Matt linked to shows that these (selected?) voters cast their votes based on reasons unrelated to Brexit; put simply, they failed to read the exam question properly.

Having the right to vote is one thing (which they had and have) but failing to understand the issue they voted on is quite another. It's not illegal, but it is a rather sad indictment of our current system.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215346

Postby mike » April 16th, 2019, 9:19 am

Wizard wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:I'm not vaguely sorry that you think I deny our Sunderland voter an intellect. I'd like to deny anybody not suitably qualified to exert such an influence on economic power over me. I don't care whether they are from Sunderland or Bethnal Green, if they can't even understand exactly what they are meant to be voting for, or won't, then their contribution to this thing you call Democracy is destructive.

So sorry,
Matt

My bold and underlining.

Can you share your qualifications to exert influence on economic power over me?


This reminds me of the Isaac Asimov quotation, my emphasis

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215361

Postby JoyofBrex8889 » April 16th, 2019, 10:54 am

vrdiver wrote:
JoyofBrex8889 wrote:One of you is wrong here, and it isn’t the guy who voted.

That's your opinion.

The referendum was about whether to leave or remain in the EU. The video that Matt linked to shows that these (selected?) voters cast their votes based on reasons unrelated to Brexit; put simply, they failed to read the exam question properly.

Having the right to vote is one thing (which they had and have) but failing to understand the issue they voted on is quite another. It's not illegal, but it is a rather sad indictment of our current system.


Am I understanding this right; You would prefer to discard their vote on the basis they don’t understand correctly? Abandon universal sufferage?

Do you see the slippery slope this leads to?

I am happy to have you try to excuse naked elitism, just as long as you understand that you have lost all pretence of democracy as soon as you take that first step of discarding the votes of citizens based on their understanding matching your understanding.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215363

Postby JoyofBrex8889 » April 16th, 2019, 11:12 am

mike wrote:
This reminds me of the Isaac Asimov quotation, my emphasis

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.



So what is your solution mike?

Any argument against those voters is an argument against universal sufferage?

Would you really prefer the Eloi get the votes that matter while the Morlocks get disenfranchised? More votes for the “right” type of people? Sunderland residents get to vote only on stuff that doesn’t count? What is it to be?

Looking forward to your response.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#215364

Postby 77ss » April 16th, 2019, 11:16 am

SteMiS wrote:
XFool wrote:Honestly, I don't know. Anyone here live in Sunderland who can add insight?

I don't live in Sunderland but I live in Newcastle (although born in West Yorkshire). I'm not sure what I can add. In the last 20 years I've never visited Sunderland once. There's really nothing to attract anyone from outside the City; not the shopping, not the social life, not attractions, not history. It's a city which rose on the back of shipbuilding and coal mining and their loss left it without a reason to exist. Most of the successful people I've met in the area from Sunderland, don't live there. Inevitably as those who can, move, those that are left are those without the means or imagination to leave. People just don't really move there to live, so there's a kind of insularity about the place. The views in the video don't surprise me at all.

I don't think our system of government helps places like Sunderland. There's little electoral advantage for the Conservatives to do anything there. They are probably unlikely to ever win a seat there, or in the surrounding countryside. There's little electoral advantage for Labour either as they are probably unlikely to lose one either.

As a city it's very much in the shadow of Newcastle and there's probably some resentment about that.


Yes. I lived in Newcastle for 2 years and visited Sunderland once. Some time ago now, so things may have changed, but I suspect that your comments are are accurate. An indictment of both major parties.

I am reminded that Grayson Perry's tapestry series 'The Vanity of Small Differences' started out in Sunderland. The TV documentary 'All in the Best Possible Taste' was fascinating.


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