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The leaving fee?

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dspp
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Re: The leaving fee?

#80865

Postby dspp » September 13th, 2017, 3:11 pm

1nv35t wrote: If the UK is to sustain we should equally look to hurt the EU (ban/block EU imports), redirect 400 nukes towards major EU cities and stand firm.


.... it's nice to be alongside such gentle peace-loving neighbours

beeswax
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Re: The leaving fee?

#80866

Postby beeswax » September 13th, 2017, 3:22 pm

Catolivesagin wrote:
1nv35t wrote:
Sundance13 wrote:so it's factually incorrect to say there was a consensus that a vote to leave the EU, was a vote to leave the single market.

The Single Market is defined as the Internal Market within EU treaties. You cannot be out of the EU but in its internal market. Out of the EU is out of its internal market. From the outside you can have access to that market at different levels according to whether you're prepared to accept EU laws taking precedence over your own and/or open borders, and how much you are prepared to pay. Even then however you're at a disadvantage to those on the inside (Eurozone) who get first choice and you are subject to what access is permitted, Switzerland for instance is restricted as to its Banking access.

The Referendum history only matters for those to be blamed if there are no benefits and only losses from Brexit.

The fact that nobody still has any idea what our Government wants from the EU and the outlook for the next few years seems to be ‘remain in the single market and customs union but we are outside the EU’. I suspect most MPs are expecting the EU agreement to be worse than before. Who can blame the more intelligent MPs for preparing their own chain mail. Has Fox done any work of value?


Dear me...how many times are remainers going to whinge on about the UK has no idea about what we want from the EU?

OK, here it is again for the one hundredth time...

The UK wants a close trading relationship with the EU without tariffs or customs checks on goods arriving AND leaving...THAT IS IT IN A NUT SHELL!

We don't want or need anything else. So how can it be worse than before when we get control of our laws, our borders and our money and of course get to decide who we want to come here and to get rid of the ones we don't. We can agree trade deals with whom the hell we want to.

Sovereignty is not something you can put a price on it anyway albeit the remainers once again keep saying we haven't lost any...

NOW my dear remainer friends, its up to the EU as whether they want us to have a that trade deal or not and not us and so go and advise the EU on their equivalent TLF what THEY need to do...The evidence so far is they want to punish us for leaving and they will try every trick in the book to do that even if it means their trade will suffer too if they get their way.

I ask the remainers once again including the poster above the OP question. Will you give the EU what it wants as a leaving fee BEFORE they will move onto stage 2?

IF the EU don't want this trading relationship then the government has no real choice but to leave without a deal and go to WTO rules which according to some, will result in us gaining more than the EU does because they sell us a lot more. Unless the EU puts a blockade on the channel ports whichno doubt some in the EU would love to do...So once again, the ball is in THEIR court and not ours. I would expect the PM to tell them this shortly.
Last edited by beeswax on September 13th, 2017, 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

johnhemming
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Re: The leaving fee?

#80867

Postby johnhemming » September 13th, 2017, 3:27 pm

beeswax wrote:I ask the remainers once again including the poster above the OP question. Will you give the EU what it wants as a leaving fee BEFORE they will move onto stage 2?

I read again today that it is an overall package. Hence we can make it clear in the negotiations that it is the package of leaving and then future arrangements that we will agreed.

Obviously it is a bad negotiating tactic to give them a load of cash and then have a complete separate arrangement which does not include the payment.

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Re: The leaving fee?

#80870

Postby beeswax » September 13th, 2017, 3:34 pm

johnhemming wrote:
beeswax wrote:I ask the remainers once again including the poster above the OP question. Will you give the EU what it wants as a leaving fee BEFORE they will move onto stage 2?

I read again today that it is an overall package. Hence we can make it clear in the negotiations that it is the package of leaving and then future arrangements that we will agreed.

Obviously it is a bad negotiating tactic to give them a load of cash and then have a complete separate arrangement which does not include the payment.


Thank you John, that is why we are where we are with the negotiations and why UNLESS the EU negotiators are told to be more flexible on this matter, we cannot move on to stage 2. In fairness David Davis said at the beginning that nothing can be agreed until all is agreed. Now it could be that a leaving fee in principle could be agreed on that basis I don't know and the leaving fee amount is still highly relevant as whether even that could get through parliament?

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Re: The leaving fee?

#80888

Postby DiamondEcho » September 13th, 2017, 4:28 pm

beeswax wrote:Unless the EU puts a blockade on the channel ports which no doubt some in the EU would love to do...


Which reminded me of the reality of the current situation and this historic headline [Wiki]:

'An apocryphal British newspaper headline supposedly once read, "Fog in Channel; Continent Cut Off".

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Re: The leaving fee?

#80895

Postby dspp » September 13th, 2017, 4:53 pm

beeswax wrote:OK, here it is again for the one hundredth time...

The UK wants a close trading relationship with the EU without tariffs or customs checks on goods arriving AND leaving...THAT IS IT IN A NUT SHELL!.......

I would expect the PM to tell them this shortly.


In case you hadn't noticed the answer to that little lot is no.

Keep wearing those rose tinted glasses. The sun set on the Empire a long time ago.

Ever closer union. Not a bad thing. Can't think why the U part of the UK is looking a bit wobbly.

regards, dspp

SalvorHardin
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Re: The leaving fee?

#80916

Postby SalvorHardin » September 13th, 2017, 6:18 pm

dspp wrote:As a manufacturer and despite being a Remainer I'm bothering to put my skin in the UK game despite manifest gross stupidities of the Brexiteers. All I see around here in the Brexit camp are a bunch of financial types fleeing the scene and similar. What risks are you all taking to keep the UK in the game ? Getting new passports ? Putting your pensions on the line ? Splitting your ISAs up between several accounts just in case ? Do tell.

regards, dspp

Yes that's me. Financial type, been retired ridiculously early for 14 years, one percenter by wealth, viscerally opposed to the EU ever since it came into being on the grounds of the loss of control over our laws (as per Tony Benn's argument), legal system and that our membership breaches The Bill of Rights. I have no pensions of any great worth, most of my income and assets are overseas, no income from the UK state, passports and overseas escape route (Canada) are already sorted. ISAs have long needed more than "several" accounts just in case.

Risks taken to keep the UK "in the game" - well I do have some fairly substantial holdings in a few UK-based companies (six figures worth in two of them). But then I don't happen to believe that WTO default hard Brexit will be all that bad for the UK so I'm not all that worried. I remember the scaremongering over our not entering the Euro - the consensus forecast disaster never materialised.

Many of the remainers' claims remind me of that period (where's the recession and collapsing house prices that George Osborne said would happen if we voted to leave?). The recent strength in sterling seems to have been completely ignored by the remainer media, presumably because it doesn't fit the narrative.

As far as I am concerned the EU has shown such staggering bad faith in the negotiations over the exit fee, with a suspiciously round figure of 100 billion Euros, that they can sod off. They're behaving like a mobster demanding protection money and are already in breach of Article 50 Treaty of Lisbon by refusing to discuss trade. Then again at the moment we're only negotiating with the monkey - the organ grinder is currently contesting the German election.

In July 2016 I'd have been happy with a Norway-style EEA exit. Now after experiencing more than a year of remainer abuse directed at Brexiteers generally (and myself personally) I favour the hardest of Brexits - no exit fee and which causes Guardian bedwetting types to wail for their safe spaces. I'd even favour a bit of sabre rattling using NATO by arguing that Germany (and some others) owe NATO money because they've been skimping on their NATO commitments.

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Re: The leaving fee?

#80938

Postby 1nv35t » September 13th, 2017, 8:31 pm

dspp wrote:
1nv35t wrote: If the UK is to sustain we should equally look to hurt the EU (ban/block EU imports), redirect 400 nukes towards major EU cities and stand firm.

.... it's nice to be alongside such gentle peace-loving neighbours

Withdrawal from Afghanistan was a historic event ... first time in over a century British armed services weren't involved in warfare. Currently the worlds second largest arms dealer. Out of the EU with no EU treaties to adhere to and the UK could resume Chemical and Biological/Toxin research/development alongside nuclear that were otherwise prohibited under EU treaties. Less collaboration would also mean a tendency for military capacity expansion (more involved in the forces or indirectly manufacturing for/supplying the forces).

A barrier between the UK and EU would promote transition over to less dependency upon imports and more home grown food and energy production ... reducing the overall net asset stripping of the UK, potentially even reversing that. Had we remained in the EU asset stripping would have continued until we were leveled down (and not being in the Euro, below) the EU wide average ... far far from being a particularly good aspiration.

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Re: The leaving fee?

#80954

Postby beeswax » September 13th, 2017, 9:39 pm

My late friend was a Farmer and a few years ago he showed me the extent of his acreage and it was a very large farm or was until he found he could get more money from the EU by NOT growing anything or having livestock on it....That hissed me off big time even then when I was much younger and less cynical than I am now...;)

So its a great point that we do have an awful lot of green and pleasant land to grow food on and maybe with less immigration we don't need to concrete it over as much as we want to or need to..

To be frank, I can't think why anyone wants to tie themselves to an unelected bunch of ex politicians in the UK (sorry I meant EU but maybe the point is the same LOL)..who have never had a proper job in their life. Its pretty clear that the majority of EU countries would sell their own grandmothers for a few quid that the EU is obliging them with OUR money and by God they really are like the Mafia demanding more money from us. There are well over a hundred countries in this big wide world and we are the fifth biggest economy and yet many remainers think we can't manage to govern ourselves without that monster round our neck?

WRT Afghanistan, I have never understood why we needed to have a few thousand of our service men and women in a country with 20 million men between the ages of 15 and 50 who seem able to have seen off the Russians when it suited them? I think we used to have 6 weeks basic training and at one time and had no problems fighting anyone...

I read this week that we lost two helicopter Pilots in Afghanistan in that God forsaken land and so we still have a presence in there...I read they wanted to land on some area of land where the locals were playing football and they refused to move for them and why they crashed I don't know? Having been in a helicopter myself, you would not catch me flying in one ever again.

dspp
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Re: The leaving fee?

#80962

Postby dspp » September 13th, 2017, 10:18 pm

1nv35t wrote:Out of the EU ......the UK could resume Chemical and Biological/Toxin research/development alongside nuclear.


keep digging

ursaminortaur
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Re: The leaving fee?

#80966

Postby ursaminortaur » September 13th, 2017, 11:01 pm

dspp wrote:
1nv35t wrote:Out of the EU ......the UK could resume Chemical and Biological/Toxin research/development alongside nuclear.


keep digging


The draft of the biological weapons convention was actually submitted by the British in 1972.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biologica ... Convention

A draft of the BWC, submitted by the British[2] was opened for signature on 10 April 1972 and entered into force 26 March 1975 when twenty-two governments had deposited their instruments of ratification. It commits the 178 states which are party to it as of December 2016 to prohibit the development, production, and stockpiling of biological and toxin weapons.
.
.
.
As stated in Article 1 of the BWC:
"Each State Party to this Convention undertakes never in any circumstances to develop, produce, stockpile or otherwise acquire or retain:
(1) Microbial or other biological agents, or toxins whatever their origin or method of production, of types and in quantities that have no justification for prophylactic, protective or other peaceful purposes;
(2) Weapons, equipment or means of delivery designed to use such agents or toxins for hostile purposes or in armed conflict."



It and the chemical weapons convention

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_ ... Convention

Key points of the Convention

Prohibition of production and use of chemical weapons
Destruction (or monitored conversion to other functions) of chemical weapons production facilities
Destruction of all chemical weapons (including chemical weapons abandoned outside the state parties territory)



don't have much to do with whether or not we are members of the EU. It's more to do with whether we want to be seen as a civilised country on the world stage or a pariah state.


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