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Galileo and Brexit

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vrdiver
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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#128720

Postby vrdiver » March 28th, 2018, 10:58 pm

7% of GDP "involves" the use of GPS isn't quite the same as 7% of GDP "is generated by" GPS.

However, for the UK, we have an expensive cost base because of our aspiration to live better than the average Joe. Letting cutting-edge technologies slip out of our hands is a sure-fire way to reduce our future ability to deliver stuff that others can't, and at that point we will be overtaken by those who can.

Imagine if Dassault could provide a better GPS service through Galileo to their customers than BAe could? What else could we lose? (and no - I'm not "project fear-ing", I'm making a point about one potential issue that might or might not arise, as an example of high-tech industry being reliant on cross-company capabilities)

Galileo may or may not be cost-justified on its own merits; that's hardly the point: failure to keep our scientists and engineers at the forefront of development is.

Imagine the knock-on effects if our best scientists and engineers start emigrating to secure better funded, more challenging, higher status roles? Getting locked out of technology is a big deal for us, but it's a slow burn, probably only having an effect on our children, so easy to dismiss from today's list of worries.

Again, not project fear, just sayin'. Anecdotally, I now have to travel halfway around the world to see several members of my family, as better jobs were on offer abroad vs what they could get at home. They now have family and roots of their own and are unlikely to return. Having access to a good education is excellent, but having an opportunity to utilise that education is also required, else we are just funding the development of minds to serve other countries.

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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#128762

Postby DiamondEcho » March 29th, 2018, 9:46 am

vrdiver wrote:Again, not project fear, just sayin'. Anecdotally, I now have to travel halfway around the world to see several members of my family, as better jobs were on offer abroad vs what they could get at home. They now have family and roots of their own and are unlikely to return.


Do you remember the 'brain drain' of the 1970s, when Labour's promise to tax the wealthy including the middle-class 'until the pips squeak' motivated people who could to emigrate? A popular destination was Australia where a subsidised passage could be got for £10, hence the term 'Ten Pound Poms'*. New Zealand, South Africa and the US (especially into academia and tech sectors) were popular too; most of them never returned. That had nothing to do with the EU; rather, a parallel of Labour's current policies being put into practise.
Anecdotally I've lived in 5 countries outside the UK since 1992, and again, none due to the EU or BREXIT; I just followed the opportunities in an increasingly globalised world.

*http://mov.vic.gov.au/immigrationmuseum/discoverycentre/your-questions/ten-pound-poms/

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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#128766

Postby dspp » March 29th, 2018, 10:14 am

In addition to the quite relevant comments of DE and VRD which relate to potential civil use & long term economic consequences (which I wholeheartedly agree with, and it is only chance that has brought my career back to the UK), one does also need to bear in mind the potential defence & security implications. In that area there is an old saying "the only thing more expensive than fighting a war, is losing a war".

regards, dspp

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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#128783

Postby ursaminortaur » March 29th, 2018, 11:32 am

DiamondEcho wrote:
vrdiver wrote:Again, not project fear, just sayin'. Anecdotally, I now have to travel halfway around the world to see several members of my family, as better jobs were on offer abroad vs what they could get at home. They now have family and roots of their own and are unlikely to return.


Do you remember the 'brain drain' of the 1970s, when Labour's promise to tax the wealthy including the middle-class 'until the pips squeak' motivated people who could to emigrate? A popular destination was Australia where a subsidised passage could be got for £10, hence the term 'Ten Pound Poms'*. New Zealand, South Africa and the US (especially into academia and tech sectors) were popular too; most of them never returned. That had nothing to do with the EU; rather, a parallel of Labour's current policies being put into practise.
Anecdotally I've lived in 5 countries outside the UK since 1992, and again, none due to the EU or BREXIT; I just followed the opportunities in an increasingly globalised world.

*http://mov.vic.gov.au/immigrationmuseum/discoverycentre/your-questions/ten-pound-poms/


The peak for the 'Ten Pound Poms'* was the 1960s not the 1970s though it had been popular right from the start after the war.
Indeed the £10 scheme ended in 1972 the cost being increased at that point to £75 - the Assisted Places scheme completely ending in 1982.

https://prezi.com/tqqxsecrrvqa/ten-pound-poms/

https://www.smh.com.au/national/ten-pound-poms-have-no-regrets-64-years-later-20141219-12aq3k.html

* About a million people came to Australia under the program between 1945 and 1972, when the rules were changed. The peak was in 1969, when 80,000 people arrived.


I had an aunt and uncle who took advantage of it in the early 1960s to move to Australia with their children. They moved back to the UK about ten years later and, apart from the eldest daughter who went back to Australia in the late eighties after the scheme had ended, are now all living in the UK.

Note Dennis Healey never actually promised to tax the rich until the pips squeak - that was a misreporting of a statement about property speculators in a 1974 speech (long after the original ten pound pom scheme had ended). And he wasn't the first politician to have used the phrase.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Denis_Healey#1970s

Squeeze property speculators until the pips squeak
Speech in Lincoln (18 February 1974), quoted in The Times (19 February 1974), p. 4. Misreported as "tax the rich until the pips squeak". "The pips squeak" metaphor was originated by Sir Eric Campbell-Geddes and later used by David Lloyd-George.

ap8889
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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#128877

Postby ap8889 » March 29th, 2018, 5:27 pm

Works for me, its a hell of a lot cheaper being a US ally than an EU supplicant.

Ashfordian
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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#128901

Postby Ashfordian » March 29th, 2018, 7:43 pm

dspp wrote:one does also need to bear in mind the potential defence & security implications. In that area there is an old saying "the only thing more expensive than fighting a war, is losing a war".

regards, dspp


That you are willing to post about the risk of a war within the 28 demonstrates how out of touch your thinking is.

Future wars between first world nations, if there is ever one again because they are so interlinked from globalisation, will be fought technically. Take away a country's internet access and they will roll over in a couple of days as society breaks down.

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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#128914

Postby dspp » March 29th, 2018, 9:11 pm

Ashfordian wrote:
dspp wrote:one does also need to bear in mind the potential defence & security implications. In that area there is an old saying "the only thing more expensive than fighting a war, is losing a war".

regards, dspp


Future wars between first world nations, if there is ever one again because they are so interlinked from globalisation, will be fought technically. Take away a country's internet access and they will roll over in a couple of days as society breaks down.


Did you reach that conclusion before, or after, Russia invaded first Georgia and then Ukraine ? Before, or after, China built the Spratly etc positions ? Before, or after, Russia poisoned Litvinenko & Skripal, and etc.....

- dspp

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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#128923

Postby XFool » March 29th, 2018, 10:21 pm

Ashfordian wrote:
dspp wrote:one does also need to bear in mind the potential defence & security implications. In that area there is an old saying "the only thing more expensive than fighting a war, is losing a war".

That you are willing to post about the risk of a war within the 28 demonstrates how out of touch your thinking is.

"within the 28"? Oh! You think Global Positioning Systems only work inside the borders of the nation that originates the system? GPS only works in the USA, Glosnass only works in Russia and Galileo will only work in the EU? (So bad luck UK drivers!)

How droll... :)

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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#128934

Postby ap8889 » March 30th, 2018, 5:37 am

There will be no war between the nations in the rEU, because Russia remains a major external threat. Russia has a very significant and capable military and has successfully prosecuted several campaigns against weak border states. No single EU nation could resist determined Russian aggression, although arguably the UK and France in concert might offer more than token resistance, being less vulnerable to major aggression due to mutually assured destruction via nuclear arms.

It is only the promise of US support via NATO that keeps the EU nations brave enough to bad-mouth Putin. Left alone without NATO they would all bend to Russian military might.

ursaminortaur
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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#128981

Postby ursaminortaur » March 30th, 2018, 11:17 am

1nv35t wrote:
There will be no war between the nations in the rEU

15 EU nations/countries combined population is less than the population of the UK. Many are land locked, surrounded by other EU members. Individual towns/cities in UK scale, little capability of individually going to war with others.


The population in Europe is much greater than it was before the first world war and the geography hasn't changed much - then it just took the assassination of an Archduke to trigger a conflict engulfing the whole continent/whole world.
More recently did the relatively small size of Yugloslavia stop that region from descending into conflict ?

Catolivesagin
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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#128994

Postby Catolivesagin » March 30th, 2018, 12:21 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
1nv35t wrote:
There will be no war between the nations in the rEU

15 EU nations/countries combined population is less than the population of the UK. Many are land locked, surrounded by other EU members. Individual towns/cities in UK scale, little capability of individually going to war with others.


The population in Europe is much greater than it was before the first world war and the geography hasn't changed much - then it just took the assassination of an Archduke to trigger a conflict engulfing the whole continent/whole world.
More recently did the relatively small size of Yugloslavia stop that region from descending into conflict ?



The UK with an Army strength in the region of about 75,000 is too small to go to war with anyone. We can do a lot of damage but to maintain control on the ground taken? Forget it. Our military could not maintain control in NI very well, we did not 'lose' that conflict neither did we 'win' it. a result which still has ramifications for the UK and Brexit

redsturgeon
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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#128995

Postby redsturgeon » March 30th, 2018, 12:48 pm

Moderator Message:
Interesting though it may be, we are straying off topic here. Please start another thread if you wish to debate the possibility of war in the EU

vrdiver
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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#128996

Postby vrdiver » March 30th, 2018, 1:06 pm

Moderator Message:
See my message in the previous post

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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#129639

Postby dspp » April 3rd, 2018, 10:02 am

For those of you with an interest in the growing defence & security aspects of the EU:

EU unveils military mobility plan to accelerate pan-European deployments
The European Commission on 28 March unveiled its new “Action Plan on Military Mobility” to support NATO’s domestic rapid reaction capability and the EU’s ability to deploy abroad. The compactly-worded, 11-page document points to a huge array of co-ordination in the years ahead among the European Commission, NATO, the European Defence Agency, and national governments across the EU, as well as to billions of euros in prioritised investment to create or modify transport infrastructure for dual-use purposes.

“This is not ‘military Schengen’ because it is for all the member states to implement,” Violeta Bulc, European Commissioner for transport, told reporters in Brussels when presenting the plan.

http://www.janes.com/article/78951/eu-u ... eployments

European Defence Fund launches its first large-scale research project
The European Commission signed off with an industry-led consortium on 28 March for the first major EU-funded defence research project – a harbinger of many more to come once the EU’s European Defence Fund (EDF) reaches full cruising speed after 2020. With a grant of EUR35 million (USD43 million), the two-year project, dubbed OCEAN2020, will test the integration of surface and underwater unmanned vehicles with the manned platforms of various navies across the European Union to boost maritime situational awareness.

“Such projects will help lay the foundation for Europe’s future defence capabilities and a stronger defence industry,” Elżbieta Bieńkowska, commissioner for the single market, told attendees and reporters during signing ceremonies in Brussels.

http://www.janes.com/article/78953/euro ... ch-project

For Mod info those are the freely quotable bits from Janes, so OK for reposting.

regards, dspp

dspp
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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#134679

Postby dspp » April 25th, 2018, 12:44 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43891933

The UK is considering plans to launch a satellite navigation system as a rival to the EU's Galileo project.

The move comes after the UK was told it would be shut out of key elements of the programme after Brexit.

The UK has spent 1,4bn euros (£1.2bn) on Galileo, which is meant to be Europe's answer to the US GPS system.


etc .....

ursaminortaur
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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#134686

Postby ursaminortaur » April 25th, 2018, 1:07 pm

dspp wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43891933

The UK is considering plans to launch a satellite navigation system as a rival to the EU's Galileo project.

The move comes after the UK was told it would be shut out of key elements of the programme after Brexit.

The UK has spent 1,4bn euros (£1.2bn) on Galileo, which is meant to be Europe's answer to the US GPS system.


etc .....



This idea was raised when the issue first came to light

https://www.ft.com/content/80dd2f68-3031-11e8-b5bf-23cb17fd1498


The UK defence department is having “early discussions” on whether Britain could launch its own satellite system to end its dependence on the US system and avert exclusion from the Galileo military application. “It would be hugely expensive — our priority is to sort this out with Brussels,” the official added.


Most people I think dismissed it as a serious proposal then - the fact it is being raised again suggests that attempts to "sort it out with Brussels" aren't going too well.

ursaminortaur
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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#134715

Postby ursaminortaur » April 25th, 2018, 2:51 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
dspp wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43891933

The UK is considering plans to launch a satellite navigation system as a rival to the EU's Galileo project.

The move comes after the UK was told it would be shut out of key elements of the programme after Brexit.

The UK has spent 1,4bn euros (£1.2bn) on Galileo, which is meant to be Europe's answer to the US GPS system.


etc .....



This idea was raised when the issue first came to light

https://www.ft.com/content/80dd2f68-3031-11e8-b5bf-23cb17fd1498


The UK defence department is having “early discussions” on whether Britain could launch its own satellite system to end its dependence on the US system and avert exclusion from the Galileo military application. “It would be hugely expensive — our priority is to sort this out with Brussels,” the official added.


Most people I think dismissed it as a serious proposal then - the fact it is being raised again suggests that attempts to "sort it out with Brussels" aren't going too well.



https://www.ft.com/content/f2440686-47ce-11e8-8ae9-4b5ddcca99b3


As part of its rearguard actions to reverse the EU’s decision, Britain is preparing to block the approval of procurement for the next batch of Galileo satellites, designed as a rival to the Pentagon’s GPS system, at a Berlin meeting of the European Space Agency council on Wednesday. The plan must be approved unanimously by ESA member states. A previous vote was postponed at the last minute in March as the row over UK involvement in the secure elements of Galileo spiralled. A UK government official warned that if the vote went ahead, “we will vote against”.


How to win friends and influence people - not.

dspp
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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#134721

Postby dspp » April 25th, 2018, 3:15 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
dspp wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43891933

The UK is considering plans to launch a satellite navigation system as a rival to the EU's Galileo project.

The move comes after the UK was told it would be shut out of key elements of the programme after Brexit.

The UK has spent 1,4bn euros (£1.2bn) on Galileo, which is meant to be Europe's answer to the US GPS system.


etc .....



This idea was raised when the issue first came to light

https://www.ft.com/content/80dd2f68-3031-11e8-b5bf-23cb17fd1498


The UK defence department is having “early discussions” on whether Britain could launch its own satellite system to end its dependence on the US system and avert exclusion from the Galileo military application. “It would be hugely expensive — our priority is to sort this out with Brussels,” the official added.


Most people I think dismissed it as a serious proposal then - the fact it is being raised again suggests that attempts to "sort it out with Brussels" aren't going too well.



https://www.ft.com/content/f2440686-47ce-11e8-8ae9-4b5ddcca99b3


As part of its rearguard actions to reverse the EU’s decision, Britain is preparing to block the approval of procurement for the next batch of Galileo satellites, designed as a rival to the Pentagon’s GPS system, at a Berlin meeting of the European Space Agency council on Wednesday. The plan must be approved unanimously by ESA member states. A previous vote was postponed at the last minute in March as the row over UK involvement in the secure elements of Galileo spiralled. A UK government official warned that if the vote went ahead, “we will vote against”.


How to win friends and influence people - not.


Exactly. All that will cause is to :
1) remind people of Cameron's toy-chucking blocking period that ended so well.
2) cause EU to count down to the day that UK is out the door, and then assign the contracts anywhere but the UK.
3) never let UK industry into anything on equal terms again.
4) and quietly reach for the next big ticket item on the defence/aerospace projects list and cross all UK participation off it. Hence RR and Bae relocating as we watch .....

great diplomacy, great sheeple voters, great endings, in fact not great at all.
- dspp

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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#134730

Postby Sorcery » April 25th, 2018, 4:12 pm

dspp wrote:Exactly. All that will cause is to :
1) remind people of Cameron's toy-chucking blocking period that ended so well.
2) cause EU to count down to the day that UK is out the door, and then assign the contracts anywhere but the UK.
3) never let UK industry into anything on equal terms again.
4) and quietly reach for the next big ticket item on the defence/aerospace projects list and cross all UK participation off it. Hence RR and Bae relocating as we watch .....

great diplomacy, great sheeple voters, great endings, in fact not great at all.


This is a perfect example of how remainers blame all things on Brexit or our government rather than where it should be, on the EU.
The UK has contributed £1.3 billion to this project and now the EU turns round and says we can't be trusted with it.
One wonders what mental gymnastics got them into that position? We are a nuclear power, one of the 5 eyes (the EU has none), and fully contribute to NATO.
This is the EU throwing it's toys out of the pram and typifies why Brexiteers were correct in their assessment of the EU as a power hungry, unaccountable, childish, petulant entity that we should extract ourselves from asap.

dspp
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Re: Galileo and Brexit

#134732

Postby dspp » April 25th, 2018, 4:31 pm

If you don't understand then go read the treaties. It was all there in advance. Not in, is out. Rule taker, not rule maker. Pay, no say. This is a classic example of Brexiteers wishing to live in a la la land where the natives do as the sahib says. If you insist on moving out of the bungalow into the hut then don't expect to get access to the silver canteen.

But you are absolutely right it will - already has - real consequences. Ask anyone working on (or bidding for) EU projects. Like this one ....

regards, dspp


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