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Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

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Nimrod103
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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146058

Postby Nimrod103 » June 16th, 2018, 10:33 am

redsturgeon wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:Whilst this is an unpleasant perversion, I can't help feeling that it is exacerbated by the trend towards very short skirts among some young women. I have noticed this and commented upon it to my own daughter as she walks out the door in the evening. I would call it dressing provocatively, dressing to tease, while being unprepared for the reaction from those men without decency or decorum.


So the answer to this sort of practice is for women to stop wearing short skirts?

I guess you approve of the burka then?

John


It is certainly a point worthy of reasoned debate. It is an interesting question, whether the burqa/hijab is worn by women from free choice, or as protection from (from what I have seen) almost universally lecherous ME men, or as a method of power and control by their male guardians. Having travelled and lived in the ME, I know there is a very widespread view among ME men that uncovered women are without exception prostitutes or at least 'available'.
In the West, dress is almost always used to get a reaction, to impress people or enhance the figure. Should we be surprised if that reaction is sometimes unwelcome?

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146092

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 16th, 2018, 1:45 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:For some reason Tory MP Sir Christopher Chope has blocked the attempt to make upskirting a criminal offence.

Because the proposed law is a cop-out? Government should be reviewing why existing law failed Gina Martin: they might find a whole lot of equally-deserving victims of bullying and harassment who just haven't caught media attention.

Because two years prison is out of all proportion?

Because cooking up new laws behind closed doors with no opportunity for debate by our elected representatives is a negation of democracy?

Because this is failure of process, and a prime example of why new laws should be one-in-one-out?

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146106

Postby ursaminortaur » June 16th, 2018, 2:47 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:For some reason Tory MP Sir Christopher Chope has blocked the attempt to make upskirting a criminal offence.

Because the proposed law is a cop-out? Government should be reviewing why existing law failed Gina Martin: they might find a whole lot of equally-deserving victims of bullying and harassment who just haven't caught media attention.

Because two years prison is out of all proportion?

Because cooking up new laws behind closed doors with no opportunity for debate by our elected representatives is a negation of democracy?

Because this is failure of process, and a prime example of why new laws should be one-in-one-out?


A private members bill goes through the same stages as any other bill. However since they are only ever debated on fridays they tend to get very little time devoted to them and are subject to this method of disruption. If Chope is so concerned about such bills not having sufficient scrutiny because of time constraints then he should be arguing for more time to be given over to private member bills at other times during the week.

It appears though, that apart from his own, he just doesn't like MPs putting forward private members bills.

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/15441893.The_47_bills_Christchurch_MP_Chris_Chope_wants_to_put_before_Parliament/

CHRISTCHURCH MP Chris Chope has been accused of “abusing the system” by putting down 47 parliamentary bills in a move which critics say will stop other backbenchers’ proposals being debated.
Mr Chope, who has previously been criticised for “talking out” bills in the House of Commons, is under fire along with Conservative colleague Peter Bone after they proposed 73 pieces of legislation between them.
But he has insisted they are putting forward valid ideas which could find their way into a Tory manifesto.


As to the one in one out idea that is absurd. Society and technology are constantly changing and the new laws are needed to police those changes. Much better to have specific laws dealing with specific offenses rather than trying to stretch existing laws to cover both their original targets and newer areas. Such stretching just leads to overly complicated pieces of legislation.

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146113

Postby chas49 » June 16th, 2018, 3:37 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:Whilst this is an unpleasant perversion, I can't help feeling that it is exacerbated by the trend towards very short skirts among some young women. I have noticed this and commented upon it to my own daughter as she walks out the door in the evening. I would call it dressing provocatively, dressing to tease, while being unprepared for the reaction from those men without decency or decorum.


This comes quite close to saying "it's the woman's fault if she goes out dressed in a short skirt and gets upskirted/groped/raped". I imagine you wouldn't blame your daughter if she was assaulted whilst wearing legally decent clothes but which still make her look attractive? Doesn't the same apply here?

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146135

Postby Nimrod103 » June 16th, 2018, 4:58 pm

chas49 wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:Whilst this is an unpleasant perversion, I can't help feeling that it is exacerbated by the trend towards very short skirts among some young women. I have noticed this and commented upon it to my own daughter as she walks out the door in the evening. I would call it dressing provocatively, dressing to tease, while being unprepared for the reaction from those men without decency or decorum.


This comes quite close to saying "it's the woman's fault if she goes out dressed in a short skirt and gets upskirted/groped/raped". I imagine you wouldn't blame your daughter if she was assaulted whilst wearing legally decent clothes but which still make her look attractive? Doesn't the same apply here?


How would you have handled this?
My daughter readies herself to leave the house, to fly long haul via an Arab country to Asia. She is dressed comfortably for herself, in attire suitable for a beachside holiday at a Mediterranean resort. I persuaded her it was perhaps not such a good idea, though only after a short and predictable argument, the salient points of which you have outlined above.

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146139

Postby redsturgeon » June 16th, 2018, 5:16 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
chas49 wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:Whilst this is an unpleasant perversion, I can't help feeling that it is exacerbated by the trend towards very short skirts among some young women. I have noticed this and commented upon it to my own daughter as she walks out the door in the evening. I would call it dressing provocatively, dressing to tease, while being unprepared for the reaction from those men without decency or decorum.


This comes quite close to saying "it's the woman's fault if she goes out dressed in a short skirt and gets upskirted/groped/raped". I imagine you wouldn't blame your daughter if she was assaulted whilst wearing legally decent clothes but which still make her look attractive? Doesn't the same apply here?


How would you have handled this?
My daughter readies herself to leave the house, to fly long haul via an Arab country to Asia. She is dressed comfortably for herself, in attire suitable for a beachside holiday at a Mediterranean resort. I persuaded her it was perhaps not such a good idea, though only after a short and predictable argument, the salient points of which you have outlined above.


You have now changed:
I have noticed this and commented upon it to my own daughter as she walks out the door in the evening.


to
My daughter readies herself to leave the house, to fly long haul via an Arab country to Asia. She is dressed comfortably for herself, in attire suitable for a beachside holiday at a Mediterranean resort.


Then you ask how you should handle this...which situation?

The first or the second?

John

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146144

Postby Nimrod103 » June 16th, 2018, 5:42 pm

redsturgeon wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:
chas49 wrote:
This comes quite close to saying "it's the woman's fault if she goes out dressed in a short skirt and gets upskirted/groped/raped". I imagine you wouldn't blame your daughter if she was assaulted whilst wearing legally decent clothes but which still make her look attractive? Doesn't the same apply here?


How would you have handled this?
My daughter readies herself to leave the house, to fly long haul via an Arab country to Asia. She is dressed comfortably for herself, in attire suitable for a beachside holiday at a Mediterranean resort. I persuaded her it was perhaps not such a good idea, though only after a short and predictable argument, the salient points of which you have outlined above.


You have now changed:
I have noticed this and commented upon it to my own daughter as she walks out the door in the evening.


to
My daughter readies herself to leave the house, to fly long haul via an Arab country to Asia. She is dressed comfortably for herself, in attire suitable for a beachside holiday at a Mediterranean resort.


Then you ask how you should handle this...which situation?

The first or the second?


John


Both?

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146148

Postby redsturgeon » June 16th, 2018, 5:57 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
Both?



The first situation would depend entirely on where she was going.

The second, I would probably recommend that she wear something warm and comfortable.

For either situation I would trust my daughter's judgement.
John

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146156

Postby csearle » June 16th, 2018, 6:50 pm

redsturgeon wrote:So the answer to this sort of practice is for women to stop wearing short skirts?
Or to wear them so often that no-one feels the need for photography. :) C.

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146159

Postby Nimrod103 » June 16th, 2018, 7:12 pm

redsturgeon wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:
Both?



The first situation would depend entirely on where she was going.
Into town with her friends for the evening. No particular issue here, though I note it is fashion now for young women to wear very little on evenings out, even when quite cold. However, young women are going out like this from their early teens. Is that OK, not so sure.
The second, I would probably recommend that she wear something warm and comfortable.
Warm?, when the temperatures are 25 in the UK, and 33 where she was going. My issue is this was on a scheduled flight, with who knows who sitting nearby. Also not a good way to travel through airports, especially outside the UK.
For either situation I would trust my daughter's judgement.
At what age did you start trusting your daughters judgment?
John

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146177

Postby stewamax » June 16th, 2018, 8:27 pm

Ursaminortaur commented:
a Texas court upheld its citizens’ constitutional right to take upskirt photos, referencing the right to freedom of speech.

The mind boggles. It is a mite unclear how a Texan's taking unsolicited pics of a girl's knickers is connected with his* right to express his opinions.

In my world of justice I would handcuff the offender for a few hours to a pillar in the main concourse of Houston GB Intercontinental airport naked from the waist down and see how he liked others taking unsolicited photos.

* presumably his

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146184

Postby redsturgeon » June 16th, 2018, 10:03 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
Warm?, when the temperatures are 25 in the UK, and 33 where she was going. My issue is this was on a scheduled flight, with who knows who sitting nearby. Also not a good way to travel through airports, especially outside the UK.
For either situation I would trust my daughter's judgement.
At what age did you start trusting your daughters judgment?


Have you taken a long haul flight recently? It gets bloody cold on those planes.

I started trusted my daughter's judgement at about the time I felt she was able to take long haul flights on her own.

John

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146190

Postby beeswax » June 16th, 2018, 11:02 pm

Just my view that its probably OK to allow young women to travel in a group or even with their boyfriend but a young woman travelling anywhere on her own particularly to foreign countries are not safe as there are too many weirdo's around. And wearing provocative clothing can only make that situation worse. They are not safe in this country never mind many others..They should at least know one rule. Never go into a bar or club on their own, spiked drinks etc and never be out late on your own....

I'm sorry to say that its a jungle out there and there is no where safe for women on their own and when they say they are capable of looking after themselves, they may think that but are no match for men who's sole intent is sexual and again, dressing in skimpy outfits won't help.

I think muslim women are/were forced to wear the clothes they do or even not to go out alone was to protect them from other men/predators. Same reason as above and in some respects that has some merit...

I would try and persuade my daughter of all the above and if they decide to something different then we have done ourr best and in some ways the more we tell them the more determined they are to do their own thing but its my view their young innocent minds cannot comprehend the dangers that are real out there..I'm sorry to say!

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146191

Postby Nimrod103 » June 16th, 2018, 11:24 pm

redsturgeon wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:
Warm?, when the temperatures are 25 in the UK, and 33 where she was going. My issue is this was on a scheduled flight, with who knows who sitting nearby. Also not a good way to travel through airports, especially outside the UK.
For either situation I would trust my daughter's judgement.
At what age did you start trusting your daughters judgment?


Have you taken a long haul flight recently? It gets bloody cold on those planes.
Reputable airlines hand out blankets.
I started trusted my daughter's judgement at about the time I felt she was able to take long haul flights on her own.
I think that is too early to resign one's role as a responsible parent.
John

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146193

Postby redsturgeon » June 16th, 2018, 11:34 pm

I started trusted my daughter's judgement at about the time I felt she was able to take long haul flights on her own.


I think that is too early to resign one's role as a responsible parent.

Trusting your child's judgement does not equate in my world to resigning one's role as a responsible parent.

You clearly have a different view that I am unlikely to change. Que sera.

John

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146203

Postby ursaminortaur » June 17th, 2018, 1:06 am

stewamax wrote:Ursaminortaur commented:
a Texas court upheld its citizens’ constitutional right to take upskirt photos, referencing the right to freedom of speech.

The mind boggles. It is a mite unclear how a Texan's taking unsolicited pics of a girl's knickers is connected with his* right to express his opinions.


Yes I was surprised by that and I don't really know how the Texas court came to its decision given Texas Penal Code, Section 21.15 - Improper Photography or Visual Recording

http://penalcode.austintexascriminaldefense.com/21.15.html

(b) A person commits an offense if the person:
(1) photographs or by videotape or other electronic means visually records another:
(A) without the other person's consent; and
(B) with intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person; or
(2) knowing the character and content of the photograph or recording, promotes a photograph or visual recording described by Subdivision (1).

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146204

Postby Lootman » June 17th, 2018, 1:37 am

ursaminortaur wrote: I was surprised by that and I don't really know how the Texas court came to its decision given Texas Penal Code, Section 21.15 - Improper Photography or Visual Recording

The general rule in the US is that local law is trumped by State law, that State law is trumped by Federal law, and that Federal law can be revoked by SCOTUS. So the 1st amendment would generally trump any law that Texas passed. A good example of that is that sodomy is still illegal under Texas law but that law cannot be enforced.

The law in the US is generally that if you are in a public place then you have no "reasonable expectation of privacy" meaning that you can be photographed. That is the guarantee given under the 1st amendment and, ironically, that is often invoked by liberals.

Be careful what you wish for.

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146212

Postby redsturgeon » June 17th, 2018, 8:27 am

Lootman wrote:The law in the US is generally that if you are in a public place then you have no "reasonable expectation of privacy" meaning that you can be photographed. That is the guarantee given under the 1st amendment and, ironically, that is often invoked by liberals.

Be careful what you wish for.


That is generally the case in the UK too.

John

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146216

Postby Nimrod103 » June 17th, 2018, 8:48 am

redsturgeon wrote:
I started trusted my daughter's judgement at about the time I felt she was able to take long haul flights on her own.


I think that is too early to resign one's role as a responsible parent.

Trusting your child's judgement does not equate in my world to resigning one's role as a responsible parent.

You clearly have a different view that I am unlikely to change. Que sera.

John


I don't follow your argument. If you trust someone's judgment, then you let them do what they want to do, whether you agree or not, and keep quiet.

I am not going to bar the door so my daughter can't leave the house, but I am going to give my opinion in a (hopefully) constructive way.
I believe young people still need advice even as they get older, from those with more experience of life. They may not seek advice, and if you give it,
they are entitled to ignore that advice. But it is resignation of responsibility, if you don't offer it.

Getting back to the Private Members Bill issue, there seems to be a bit of tit for tat activity going on, in that Chope, the MP in question, raised his own PMB about not giving criminal records to people who don't pay their BBC licence fee. A worthy cause, it should be a civil matter, but the PMB was vetoed by the BBC loving opposition.

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Re: Tory MP blocks bid to make upskirting a criminal offence

#146224

Postby csearle » June 17th, 2018, 9:04 am

redsturgeon wrote:Trusting your child's judgement does not equate in my world to resigning one's role as a responsible parent.
I agree. All children are different, for example my eldest desperately wanted to be grown up and could be trusted with many situations whereas my next, at the same age, IMO could not. It was part of that parental responsibility to make that judgement because to apply a blanket approach to the issue would mean either not preparing the child as much as one could do for the world he/she would be facing, or putting the child at risk before he/she was ready.

Chris


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