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The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

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anticrank
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146253

Postby anticrank » June 17th, 2018, 9:57 am

ap8889 wrote:
anticrank wrote:
ap8889 wrote:
I can just as easily turn that argument against you: Spending money on NHS facilities, nurses salaries and bandages directly generates a positive GDP return due to, you know, the money getting spent on stuff and services people need.

We can choose not to make that investment. In which case, we keep that cash, but we forego the returns. Our net position is then worse, obviously. If the investment funds are then diverted to the EU, other services must suffer disproportionately.

Boom. See how that works!


I can see how it works for me, when every reputable study (including the government's) supports my argument.


What, are you now saying spending on nurses lowers GDP? Wow. I can just as easily claim that almost all economists believe that paying wages increases GDP as money circulates in the economy, and what is more I don't have to rely on complicated questions of whether trade imbalances net out as a positive for the UK. I just rely on the obvious effect that paying a nurse to care is likely to cause her to pay tax and buy goods.


Better that you stick to what I say, rather than what you'd like me to have said. I have said that the net UK position will be worse as a result of Brexit.

This is equivalent to saying that there is no known alternative investment for our EU contributions that offers a better return than EU membership. The government agrees. But, will of the people...

Which means, by sending money to the EU, we are better placed to pay nurses more. Whatever economic benefits then flow from paying nurses more, those benefits will remain available to us. Taking that money and paying it directly to nurses leaves the country worse off, in the round. And will eventually leave nurses worse off too.

Sundance13
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146255

Postby Sundance13 » June 17th, 2018, 9:59 am

BobbyD wrote:
Sundance13 wrote:It’s a wind up, nobody can be stupid enough to really believe this is a Brexit dividend, especially given we don’t even know yet when we’ll stop paying budget contributions.


I wouldn't bet on that.

Oh look I was right...

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the ... public


Possibly, but I still think this is primarily a wind up to annoy Remainers, not that he/she will admit it on this forum.

XFool
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146257

Postby XFool » June 17th, 2018, 10:00 am

ap8889 wrote:
XFool wrote:
ap8889 wrote:If you examine the graph on the BBC story, you will see that the 50s and 60s ie before EU membership, NHS funding growth was higher than most of the EU period. I blame the outrageous siphoning of funds to stock the EU wine cellar.

Well you would, wouldn't you? You'd probably do the same with defence spending, or anything else!

Was that the sound of a hit scored? I think it was.

I guess that's what you must think... :)

I wonder just how many times in total that £350m per week could be reused? ;)

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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146260

Postby XFool » June 17th, 2018, 10:03 am

Sundance13 wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
Sundance13 wrote:It’s a wind up, nobody can be stupid enough to really believe this is a Brexit dividend, especially given we don’t even know yet when we’ll stop paying budget contributions.


I wouldn't bet on that.

Oh look I was right...

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the ... public

Possibly, but I still think this is primarily a wind up to annoy Remainers, not that he/she will admit it on this forum.

But is it winding up Remainers? Or just confirming all our 'prejudices'?

WARMING! Conspiracy Theory: Could it be a Remainer posing as a Brexiteer to discredit Brexiteers? ;)
Last edited by XFool on June 17th, 2018, 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

BobbyD
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146261

Postby BobbyD » June 17th, 2018, 10:04 am

Sundance13 wrote:Possibly, but I still think this is primarily a wind up to annoy Remainers, not that he/she will admit it on this forum.


The same could be said for Brexit itself...

XFool
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146262

Postby XFool » June 17th, 2018, 10:07 am

BobbyD wrote:
Sundance13 wrote:Possibly, but I still think this is primarily a wind up to annoy Remainers, not that he/she will admit it on this forum.

The same could be said for Brexit itself...

Well yes. Going by the postings of some Brexiteers on here, the whole idea for Brexit seems to be little more than: "Two fingers to the Europeans! And Remainers..."

Perhaps that is all it has going for it? Perhaps that's enough for some?

From my first post on "The Joy of Brex":

"Over time, the more I have read posts on here by hard Brexiteers the more apparent it seems that there is something passing strange in the outlook of many supporters of hard Brexit. Their position seems to owe little to reasoned arguments, due consideration of facts or concerns over governance. Rather it seems to arise from some strange internal and irrational animus towards various others.

Reason doesn't live here anymore.
"

johnhemming
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146264

Postby johnhemming » June 17th, 2018, 10:18 am

ap8889 wrote:So that's a yes from Johnhemming.

It is not a yes. My point is that the tax take from GDP is around a third. Hence that is the main driver in terms of what funds are available. When we have an idea what funds are available we can decide how much goes for the NHS, Defence, Police etc.

It isn't difficult.

johnhemming
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146270

Postby johnhemming » June 17th, 2018, 10:47 am

ap8889 wrote:it's enough for me.

OK

ap8889 wrote: And 17million others.

I don't think that is true. People on all sides voted the way they did for all sorts of reasons.

Nimrod103
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146273

Postby Nimrod103 » June 17th, 2018, 10:53 am

johnhemming wrote:
ap8889 wrote:So that's a yes from Johnhemming.

It is not a yes. My point is that the tax take from GDP is around a third. Hence that is the main driver in terms of what funds are available. When we have an idea what funds are available we can decide how much goes for the NHS, Defence, Police etc.

It isn't difficult.


I thought the tax take included things which did not show up in GDP, like import duties and a chunk of the VAT, both of which go straight to Brussels. The sum total of which were put at the time of the Referendum at £350MM per week, though I have seen calculations for the current year which put it at £380MM (can't find the source offhand). Hence the NHS windfall.

XFool
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146274

Postby XFool » June 17th, 2018, 11:02 am

Nimrod103 wrote:I thought the tax take included things which did not show up in GDP, like import duties and a chunk of the VAT, both of which go straight to Brussels. The sum total of which were put at the time of the Referendum at £350MM per week, though I have seen calculations for the current year which put it at £380MM (can't find the source offhand). Hence the NHS windfall.

You'll have to explain all that a bit more - at least for me!

Obviously the extra money to the NHS is a "windfall", as far as the NHS is concerned. But is it really because of Brexit? How? Is this a one off source, or will it be continuing into the future?
'Please show your workings.' ;)

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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146277

Postby beeswax » June 17th, 2018, 11:05 am

If we are a third country then why are we paying them 40bn?

They sell more to us and so if tariffs are applied then we can hike them up to what we want which is worse for them.

Nobody has yet answered why ANY business in the EU wants to sell us LESS than they do now.

We don't actually know what the trade balance will be after Brexit but people seem to forget there are 7bn more people OUTSIDE the EU and so mathematically that seems to trump the EU....The ONLY certainty when we leave is...

We stop paying them billions that we can spend on ourselves..

We take back control of our laws, borders and money and fishing and agriculture..

ie we become a self governing nation again..

What's not to like!

Remainers are saying what 'might' happen when we leave and leavers are saying what WILL happen....and I much prefer certainty over doubt..
Last edited by beeswax on June 17th, 2018, 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ashfordian
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146278

Postby Ashfordian » June 17th, 2018, 11:06 am

While this is not the reason I voted for Brexit it is great to see the start of positive change in the UK with increased investment in the NHS.

I am not surprised remainers are acting like they have been sucking on a lemons all morning as their cause is not enhanced by positive Brexit news, especially when the NHS is getting the benefit.

It's even better that it puts remainer MP's in another no-win situation as if they achieve their aim and the UK continues to pay into the EU the NHS gets less money. Let's hope they see reason and do not vote to decrease pledged spending on the NHS

ursaminortaur
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146280

Postby ursaminortaur » June 17th, 2018, 11:09 am

ap8889 wrote:Remainers are so aggrieved about Brexit. They have Fear Of Missing Out on all that good legislation from Brussels: stuff like banning composting of tea-bags and prohibiting bananas with abnormal curvature are great fun!


Do you have to keep repeating these stupid brexit myths.

As has been stated repeatedly, there is no prohibition on bananas with abnormal curvature just marketing directives as to what class of banana they fall in and those marketing directives are just transcriptions of the worldwide Who standard.

http://www.fao.org/fao-who-codexalimentarius/sh-proxy/en/?lnk=1&url=https%253A%252F%252Fworkspace.fao.org%252Fsites%252Fcodex%252FStandards%252FCODEX%2BSTAN%2B205-1997%252FCXS_205e.pdf


Composting of tea bags is also allowed though local councils can ban such composting of any food items if they believe there is a risk of spreading certain diseases - Cardiff Council did so in 2005 to prevent the spread of foot-and-mouth disease.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35959948

Under EU law, local authorities may indeed ban the composting of teabags, and any other sort of food waste, if they are worried about the spreading of certain diseases.
Cardiff Council did so in 2005 to prevent the spread of foot-and-mouth disease - it was worried food waste might have been in contact with infected meat .But councils are not required to ban the composting of tea bags - they are allowed to.

Sundance13
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146282

Postby Sundance13 » June 17th, 2018, 11:19 am

ursaminortaur wrote:
ap8889 wrote:Remainers are so aggrieved about Brexit. They have Fear Of Missing Out on all that good legislation from Brussels: stuff like banning composting of tea-bags and prohibiting bananas with abnormal curvature are great fun!


Do you have to keep repeating these stupid brexit myths.

As has been stated repeatedly, there is no prohibition on bananas with abnormal curvature just marketing directives as to what class of banana they fall in and those marketing directives are just transcriptions of the worldwide Who standard.

http://www.fao.org/fao-who-codexalimentarius/sh-proxy/en/?lnk=1&url=https%253A%252F%252Fworkspace.fao.org%252Fsites%252Fcodex%252FStandards%252FCODEX%2BSTAN%2B205-1997%252FCXS_205e.pdf


Composting of tea bags is also allowed though local councils can ban such composting of any food items if they believe there is a risk of spreading certain diseases - Cardiff Council did so in 2005 to prevent the spread of foot-and-mouth disease.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35959948

Under EU law, local authorities may indeed ban the composting of teabags, and any other sort of food waste, if they are worried about the spreading of certain diseases.
Cardiff Council did so in 2005 to prevent the spread of foot-and-mouth disease - it was worried food waste might have been in contact with infected meat .But councils are not required to ban the composting of tea bags - they are allowed to.



He’s trolling, there’s no point responding to him, he’s not interested in discussion, just spouting nonsense to irritate others.

JMN2
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146286

Postby JMN2 » June 17th, 2018, 11:31 am

beeswax wrote:...

Nobody has yet answered why ANY business in the EU wants to sell us LESS than they do now.

...


It will not be up to the business, EU is a political project and they are willing to sacrifice a lot and twill not necessarily listen to the business side - all for "long term" and "greater good".

ursaminortaur
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146289

Postby ursaminortaur » June 17th, 2018, 11:35 am

Ashfordian wrote:While this is not the reason I voted for Brexit it is great to see the start of positive change in the UK with increased investment in the NHS.

I am not surprised remainers are acting like they have been sucking on a lemons all morning as their cause is not enhanced by positive Brexit news, especially when the NHS is getting the benefit.

It's even better that it puts remainer MP's in another no-win situation as if they achieve their aim and the UK continues to pay into the EU the NHS gets less money. Let's hope they see reason and do not vote to decrease pledged spending on the NHS


There won't be £350 million a week available after 2023 firstly because we never sent that amount to the EU in the first place but also because we will be paying our brexit bill until about 2064 according to the OBR with bigger payments at the start

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-brexit-divorce-bill-taxpayers-deadline-treasury-obr-office-budget-responsibility-a8253751.html

New official data indicates that Britain will be paying its Brexit divorce bill for 45 years after leaving the EU – until 2064.

And, at least in the past, brexiteers have admitted that there will be at least a short term hit to the economy from brexit which even with a very soft brexit would more than wipe out any difference between our current budget contribution and what we will be paying as part of our exit bill in 2023 and the subsequent few years. Hence claiming that this is a brexit dividend is pure spin.

ursaminortaur
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146291

Postby ursaminortaur » June 17th, 2018, 11:38 am

JMN2 wrote:
beeswax wrote:...

Nobody has yet answered why ANY business in the EU wants to sell us LESS than they do now.

...


It will not be up to the business, EU is a political project and they are willing to sacrifice a lot and twill not necessarily listen to the business side - all for "long term" and "greater good".


It isn't that businesses won't want to sell it is that exiting the EU (and in particular leaving the single market) will inevitably introduce costly barriers to trade particularly non-tariff barriers.

beeswax
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146296

Postby beeswax » June 17th, 2018, 11:44 am

As a leaver, I have not admitted we will have a short term blip as always thought at the end of the day the EU will agree a trade deal pretty much on the same basis as we have and the big businesses in the EU are saying this too. Are they really going to cut off their noses to spite their face...

Juncker may and a few others and Merkel seems to be on her last ego trip now and so lets see. Even so even if there was, its a price worth paying.

Had we had a Donald Trump on our negotiating team a deal would have been done by now and no need for any transition period and the lesson is don't have weak kneed politicians negotiating trade deals, leave that to the real business people who KNOW how to do that...

Sundance13
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146297

Postby Sundance13 » June 17th, 2018, 11:45 am

JMN2 wrote:
beeswax wrote:...

Nobody has yet answered why ANY business in the EU wants to sell us LESS than they do now.

...


It will not be up to the business, EU is a political project and they are willing to sacrifice a lot and twill not necessarily listen to the business side - all for "long term" and "greater good".


No business in the U.K. wants to sell less to the EU than they do now, but that hasn’t stopped the Govt deciding to leave the single market.

Sundance13
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Re: The Job of Brex part deux: £350m worth

#146300

Postby Sundance13 » June 17th, 2018, 11:52 am

beeswax wrote:As a leaver, I have not admitted we will have a short term blip as always thought at the end of the day the EU will agree a trade deal pretty much on the same basis as we have and the big businesses in the EU are saying this too. Are they really going to cut off their noses to spite their face...

Juncker may and a few others and Merkel seems to be on her last ego trip now and so lets see. Even so even if there was, its a price worth paying.

Had we had a Donald Trump on our negotiating team a deal would have been done by now and no need for any transition period and the lesson is don't have weak kneed politicians negotiating trade deals, leave that to the real business people who KNOW how to do that...



They have no choice Mike, due to the Govts stance on the Single Market and decision that it wishes to diverge from EU regulations over time. The whole foundation of the single market (the rules all members adhere to) is of harmonised regulations, overseen by the EU Commission and ECJ, to ensure everyone plays by the same rules. You can’t have 1 country playing to different rules than everyone else, it would crack the foundations and bring the whole SM down.

Imagine if one country at the World Cup said it refused to play unless it could play by its own rules, not the rules the rest have agreed to? Perhaps it wants extra substitutes or the offside rule interpreted differently. It would cause chaos if it was allowed.

It’s not the EUs choice, it’s the Govts red lines. If the red lines change, so do our options including ones enabling us to maintain frictionless trade. It’s really all up to the Govt.


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