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May, the NHS and a bus...

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vrdiver
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May, the NHS and a bus...

#146456

Postby vrdiver » June 18th, 2018, 4:14 pm

Mrs May has declared the Brexit dividend will be spent on the NHS.

Please, ignore whether you think Brexit is good or bad. Ignore whether you voted Leave or Remain. My preferred topic for this thread is to discuss whether Mrs May has just played a blinder for the Tories interested in the long game?

Consider:
if there is a Brexit dividend, she has recognised it and given it to the NHS - surely a populist move that also cuts the legs out from under a future Labour government. If there is no dividend, then taxes will carry the burden (who pays still tbd) and presumably, in the shambles the Conservatives would fall anyway, so she's laid the foundations to nail Labour as the party that taxes and spends, whilst taking all the kudos for that spending for her own government.

If the move helps underpin support for the Tories, she's onto a winner. If the Tories are going to go down, it's harder to label them "the nasty party" with a move like that. Latest behaviour being what's usually remembered.

If she has to compromise over other issues on Brexit, is the NHS money a counter "chip in the game" which she can cash in?

Alternatively, has she opened the Tories to accusation of financial incompetence, destroying most of the clear water between them and Labour?

VRD

gryffron
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Re: May, the NHS and a bus...

#146472

Postby gryffron » June 18th, 2018, 5:02 pm

I think it is perfectly clear that the vast majority of the country want a better NHS. Opinion polls have consistently shown people say they are willing to pay more for that. Although past experience suggests perhaps they still won't vote for it.

There's no limit to the amount the NHS could spend. There's no limit to the amount Labour will promise to spend.

The main benefit here (for the Tories) is to harden up support amongst middle ground grey voters. This is going to be a very popular policy with them. Who knows, maybe they are the people who are really willing to pay a little more for a decent NHS.

I don't think there is the slightest possibility the Tories could look less economically competent, when the alternative is Momentum Labour.

Gryff

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Re: May, the NHS and a bus...

#146475

Postby Charlottesquare » June 18th, 2018, 5:12 pm

vrdiver wrote:Mrs May has declared the Brexit dividend will be spent on the NHS.

Please, ignore whether you think Brexit is good or bad. Ignore whether you voted Leave or Remain. My preferred topic for this thread is to discuss whether Mrs May has just played a blinder for the Tories interested in the long game?

Consider:
if there is a Brexit dividend, she has recognised it and given it to the NHS - surely a populist move that also cuts the legs out from under a future Labour government. If there is no dividend, then taxes will carry the burden (who pays still tbd) and presumably, in the shambles the Conservatives would fall anyway, so she's laid the foundations to nail Labour as the party that taxes and spends, whilst taking all the kudos for that spending for her own government.

If the move helps underpin support for the Tories, she's onto a winner. If the Tories are going to go down, it's harder to label them "the nasty party" with a move like that. Latest behaviour being what's usually remembered.

If she has to compromise over other issues on Brexit, is the NHS money a counter "chip in the game" which she can cash in?

Alternatively, has she opened the Tories to accusation of financial incompetence, destroying most of the clear water between them and Labour?

VRD


Or if the electorate wake up to the fact that they are being bribed with their own money it backfires. It also reminds everyone about the bus, which is probably not the smartest move.

If, and it is a big if because they are likely not good enough, Labour can convince the public that this is cynical Conservatives at their worst (these days not too hard to believe) papering over the Brexit debacle with gesture politics it could backfire.

We have given you the extra £20 billion from,

a. a brexit dividend, honest guv, we are now so much better off we found this down the back of the sofa.
b. by slowing further our austerity drive, we know you did not like it, we just moved the target out (x ) years
c. by just spending more and fudging the figures, you will all have forgotten about it by next budget then we can re-announce it (we learn from Labour)

The fact is politicians must think the electorate are really stupid, the worrying thing is they may be correct.

SalvorHardin
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Re: May, the NHS and a bus...

#146491

Postby SalvorHardin » June 18th, 2018, 5:56 pm

Brilliant politics, lousy economics. Anyone objecting to whatever Brexit deal they come up with can now be accused of wanting to cut spending on the NHS, thus guaranteeing them condemnation from the usual suspects.

Most of the electorate behaves like Pavlov's Dog when it comes to the NHS, salivating at the prospect of more NHS spending however it is spent. I reckon that if you tell people that you want to give the NHS an extra £1 billion a year for the purposes of giving people TB that at least one-third of them will agree with you (and some will demand more spending).

Lousy economics. We'll get the usual mixture of stealth taxes and bracket creep (not indexing allowances and benefits) plus money printing to raise the funds. But Labour sets the bar pretty low when it comes to comparing economic policies; in comparison the Conservatives are still economic geniuses.

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Re: May, the NHS and a bus...

#146494

Postby JMN2 » June 18th, 2018, 6:10 pm

I can't understand the absolute red line on it being free at the point of access. Introduce a £20 charge and a fine if an appointment missed and not cancelled before a deadline of some sort. Even in Scandinavia this has been common for a long time, and they have mixed private with public, given patients a choice of care between private and public, paid by some coupons or credits.

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Re: May, the NHS and a bus...

#146507

Postby beeswax » June 18th, 2018, 7:08 pm

Nobody has the guts to take on the NHS..

Its too big to manage. salaries of nurses and doctors are too high and they have just given them another huge hike. Nurses don't nurse anymore and are quasi Doctors or so they think..

They should ration hospital treatment so that the elderly don't get eg free hip replacements at age 86 which is someone I know and his other hip has crumbled and so what's the point. The GP's and hospital wards seem full of people over 70. Money need to go to the younger generation.

I agree that charging 20 quid will see a massive reduction in people going to their GP for next to nothing but health checks, statins and BP tablets.

Sack half the managers as all I see is names on doors with assistants brewing up for them..

Nobody in the NHS or hospital trusts should get more salary than the Prime Minister.

Problem is, its a sacred cow and will be interested to see how happy supporters of the NHS are when their taxes go up and their personal allowances frozen...

If its as good as people think, why has no country in the world not copied it..

Oh and stop health tourism and that means a personal identity card which most of us have got anyway..

Just to add that Mrs May may not survive this weeks vote in the commons now the Lords have acted beyond what mental capacity they have and would withdraw ALL NHS treatment from the lot of them and she may not have much choice but to call an election and have at the top of the manifesto abolition of the Lords and see how they like being stuffed by the electorate...

That must be the best vote winner ever...
Last edited by beeswax on June 18th, 2018, 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ursaminortaur
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Re: May, the NHS and a bus...

#146508

Postby ursaminortaur » June 18th, 2018, 7:12 pm

JMN2 wrote:I can't understand the absolute red line on it being free at the point of access. Introduce a £20 charge and a fine if an appointment missed and not cancelled before a deadline of some sort. Even in Scandinavia this has been common for a long time, and they have mixed private with public, given patients a choice of care between private and public, paid by some coupons or credits.

The trouble is noone would trust them to keep to such a low charge - once the principle of free at the point of delivery was gone it wouldn't be long before more charging occurred and soon you would be paying for everything. How soon would it be until the GP service became like the dentistry service with a limited number of hard to find NHS GPs and a lot of private GPs charging for everything ? And even £20, if not refundable because it acted as a fine for missing the appointment, would deter a lot of poor but sick people from going to their GP.

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Re: May, the NHS and a bus...

#146509

Postby beeswax » June 18th, 2018, 7:17 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
JMN2 wrote:I can't understand the absolute red line on it being free at the point of access. Introduce a £20 charge and a fine if an appointment missed and not cancelled before a deadline of some sort. Even in Scandinavia this has been common for a long time, and they have mixed private with public, given patients a choice of care between private and public, paid by some coupons or credits.

The trouble is noone would trust them to keep to such a low charge - once the principle of free at the point of delivery was gone it wouldn't be long before more charging occurred and soon you would be paying for everything. How soon would it be until the GP service became like the dentistry service with a limited number of hard to find NHS GPs and a lot of private GPs charging for everything ?


Few people argue against Dentists charging though and even though they have NHS customers the costs are still very high. Twice I have had to pay 260 pounds for not a lot actually. And save on food packaging as all we need then is a liquidiser...I think all teeth should be removed at age 60 and then that will free up lots of them dentists I mean...I want some teeth removing and two dentists I have been to have refused, saying they can be repaired...yes, so can my old rusty bike! ;)

OK, a bit harsh age 60, make that 65 or even index it to the retirement age! ;)

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Re: May, the NHS and a bus...

#146510

Postby PinkDalek » June 18th, 2018, 7:23 pm

beeswax wrote:Problem is, its a sacred cow and will be interested to see how happy supporters of the NHS are when their taxes go up and their personal allowances frozen...


Would the answer matter to the 34 million or so who neither pay Income Tax nor National Insurance?

ursaminortaur
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Re: May, the NHS and a bus...

#146512

Postby ursaminortaur » June 18th, 2018, 7:29 pm

beeswax wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
JMN2 wrote:I can't understand the absolute red line on it being free at the point of access. Introduce a £20 charge and a fine if an appointment missed and not cancelled before a deadline of some sort. Even in Scandinavia this has been common for a long time, and they have mixed private with public, given patients a choice of care between private and public, paid by some coupons or credits.

The trouble is noone would trust them to keep to such a low charge - once the principle of free at the point of delivery was gone it wouldn't be long before more charging occurred and soon you would be paying for everything. How soon would it be until the GP service became like the dentistry service with a limited number of hard to find NHS GPs and a lot of private GPs charging for everything ?


Few people argue against Dentists charging though and even though they have NHS customers the costs are still very high. Twice I have had to pay 260 pounds for not a lot actually. I think all teeth should be removed at age 60 and then that will free up lots of them dentists I mean...I want some teeth removing and two dentists I have been to have refused, saying they can be repaired...yes, so can my old rusty bike! ;)


I think the profit motive means a number of dentists probably do more work and hence more harm than is really warranted.
Until last year I steered clear of dentists - only went then because i'd managed to crack one of my molars. Despite not having seen any dentist since my schooldays the rest of my teeth were fine according to the dentist though that one had cracked so badly it had to be removed. I don't particularly look after my teeth too well and eat lots of sweets but it can't be down to genetics since both my parents who regularly visited dentists had tons of work done. I'm 57 so not too far off your 60 and definitely wouldn't want dentists removing my perfectly good teeth at 60.

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Re: May, the NHS and a bus...

#146515

Postby XFool » June 18th, 2018, 7:49 pm

beeswax wrote:They should ration hospital treatment so that the elderly don't get eg free hip replacements at age 86 which is someone I know and his other hip has crumbled and so what's the point. The GP's and hospital wards seem full of people over 70. Money need to go to the younger generation.

Uh? But by and large the "younger generation" don't need hospital care. Mainly because they are the younger generation!

Surely the money needs to go to caring for those who ARE sick, whatever their age. My understanding is that's rather the whole point...

beeswax wrote:I agree that charging 20 quid will see a massive reduction in people going to their GP for next to nothing but health checks, statins and BP tablets.

Well, speaking as somebody who does go to their GP for statins and other (but not BP) tablets, they aren't 'sweeties' you know. What would you have me do? Risk another stroke and need costly long term care? Or I suppose, I could just expire; which would be more 'efficient' from a cost effective POV I guess.

beeswax wrote:If its as good as people think, why has no country in the world not copied it..

Err... broadly speaking many have - though the details may be different. The notable exception being the US. Funnily enough, it is the US that spends a very great amount for its healthcare.

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Re: May, the NHS and a bus...

#146526

Postby stevensfo » June 18th, 2018, 8:34 pm

Until last year I steered clear of dentists - only went then because i'd managed to crack one of my molars. Despite not having seen any dentist since my schooldays the rest of my teeth were fine according to the dentist though that one had cracked so badly it had to be removed. I don't particularly look after my teeth too well and eat lots of sweets but it can't be down to genetics since both my parents who regularly visited dentists had tons of work done. I'm 57 so not too far off your 60 and definitely wouldn't want dentists removing my perfectly good teeth at 60.


Yep, I'm the same age with EXACTLY the same experience. Put off them for many years by a sadistic dentist I had as a child, then for good by a dentist in the UK who gave me an injection in the inside of my cheek that hurt like nothing on earth. I had a wisdom tooth removed on holiday in Poland once, but he gave me tons of anesthetic and the vodka helped. :-)

Since I stopped worrying about dentists, I brush teeth twice a day and have no problems.

Steve

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Re: May, the NHS and a bus...

#146561

Postby beeswax » June 18th, 2018, 11:17 pm

Just a few points raised just..

Some of my comments are a bit tongue in cheek but also to try and make a serious point too..There are too many older people getting treated by the NHS that should be refused because the costs/benefits are too high. I mentioned that 86 year old and having a new hip won't help him much if at all and so he should be told NO...Many people have these even at a younger age and knee joints just because they get a bit of pain walking. Tough! Don't walk as much and don't do 18 holes of golf three times a week. Eye care is a different matter as that is essential and so spend perhaps more on that. Of course younger people don't need the NHS as much but that's the whole point. The costs would then fall and could be spent on things younger people and children get like Cancer etc.

I'm on statins but perhaps go to my GP once a year if that. The research as to the benefits is mixed anyway. Ditto BP tablets. In my youth there was 2 GP's and no clerical staff. The DR filled in a card and you sat on a bench seat and moved up. No appointments necessary. Now at my GP there are 6 GP's and 38 support staff and so how much is that costing per year? Billions!

I see loads and loads of people in care homes that don't want to be there. They want to die to put it bluntly as these places are just longer term hospices and I see people who are so ill they have to go into hospital frequently and come out again to continue to suffer. That needs sorting. Assisted dying is the answer but another big no no and so we have half a million people suffering needlessly costing a grand a week to look after from their own money and the LA ie social care costs that also need much more money.

6 monthly check ups at Dentists are a joke and should be stopped as righty said, they will look for work whether its needed or not.

There are a multitude of things that CAN be done but won't and so we are stuck with the NHS and all its costs as nobody will tackle it.

Nurses on 500/600 quid a week filling in paperwork is not my idea of what a nurse should be doing.. A three year degree course for a nurse? Do me a favour!

I could go on and on....

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Re: May, the NHS and a bus...

#146581

Postby stevensfo » June 19th, 2018, 7:37 am

I'm on statins but perhaps go to my GP once a year if that. The research as to the benefits is mixed anyway. Ditto BP tablets. In my youth there was 2 GP's and no clerical staff. The DR filled in a card and you sat on a bench seat and moved up. No appointments necessary. Now at my GP there are 6 GP's and 38 support staff and so how much is that costing per year? Billions!


The irritating thing is that when I talk to nurses and doctors with years of experience, they all agree that the NHS could save billions very easily, simply with a fairly simple changes. Just a few I remember: No free prescriptions for aspirin, paracetamol etc, which can be bought in shops, and would removes queues of people waiting in surgeries. Where the person is not on the database, they should provide some ID and credit card. The infrastructure is in place and if not eligible for free treatment, the card would be debited. Abuse of our NHS by foreigners has been going on at least the 70s. Either a small fee for a consultation or a fine for non-attendance, again either via a debit card or added to a prescription bill. Cost of cosmetic surgery to be paid by patient.

Be careful with BP. Our bodies can cope with short spells of high BP. It's the long-term effect that's dangerous. Doctors have said that many people used to die from strokes, kidney failure, heart attacks etc because their BP was too high for too long.


Steve

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Re: May, the NHS and a bus...

#146604

Postby BobbyD » June 19th, 2018, 9:53 am

vrdiver wrote:Mrs May has declared the Brexit dividend will be spent on the NHS.

Please, ignore whether you think Brexit is good or bad. Ignore whether you voted Leave or Remain. My preferred topic for this thread is to discuss whether Mrs May has just played a blinder for the Tories interested in the long game?


It's a fairly obvious desperate attempt to divert the news cycle away from the Government's loss in the Lords yesterday, and at no cost since May won't be there to make good on it with the Brexit dividend which doesn't exist.


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