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ap8889
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The article that Remainers need to read

#158689

Postby ap8889 » August 11th, 2018, 6:46 am

https://quillette.com/2018/08/03/britai ... st-revolt/

Cross posted from Monevator, I thought this article was excellent, and sums up why I support Leave.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158692

Postby johnhemming » August 11th, 2018, 7:26 am

the article wrote:Perhaps I was woefully naïve, but in the days after the referendum I felt excited; anxious about the short-term fallout but excited about the long-overdue debate that I assumed was en route; a national focus on addressing the divides, inequalities, and grievances that had led to this moment.

People such as myself see Brexit as making a number of the divides, inequalities and grievances worse. Hence it is not surprising if people are trying to minimise the harm of Brexit.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158698

Postby ap8889 » August 11th, 2018, 7:47 am

I think the divide between ultra liberal metropolitan elite and the conservative working class has been made vastly worse by the employment of cheap immigrant labour by the former, at the expense of the latter.

That abandonment of poor Britons by rich Britons is corrosive to a people, to a nation. The idea of a nation implies a certain solidarity. If solidarity is not reciprocated by the liberal elite, one should expect principled opposition. When that principled opposition is sneered at and belittled one should expect not capitulation, but a redoubling.

(I give you your due Mr Hemming, as you are not one for belittling anyone.)

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158703

Postby johnhemming » August 11th, 2018, 8:17 am

ap8889 wrote:I think the divide between ultra liberal metropolitan elite and the conservative working class has been made vastly worse by the employment of cheap immigrant labour by the former, at the expense of the latter.

I accept that errors were made by failing to recognise and take into account the economic conflict caused by migration.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158731

Postby Charlottesquare » August 11th, 2018, 12:24 pm

ap8889 wrote:I think the divide between ultra liberal metropolitan elite and the conservative working class has been made vastly worse by the employment of cheap immigrant labour by the former, at the expense of the latter.

That abandonment of poor Britons by rich Britons is corrosive to a people, to a nation. The idea of a nation implies a certain solidarity. If solidarity is not reciprocated by the liberal elite, one should expect principled opposition. When that principled opposition is sneered at and belittled one should expect not capitulation, but a redoubling.

(I give you your due Mr Hemming, as you are not one for belittling anyone.)


I do not disagree with much of the article and its points re society changes that have arisen, I just struggle to see how Brexit will redress some of the issues, yes there are issues but in a global world (and that genie is out of the bottle) I am really not sure that Brexit, standing Canute like before the impacts of global economics, will change anything for the better re the UK.

It seems to me that until the way the entire world works changes vis a vis its global economic interactions we have struck on Brexit as the cure yet it is unlikely to make the patient better and could make the patient much worse.

What we have is the difficulty in rewarding labour in a developed western world competing with a less developed world with far lower wages and standards of living, this has impacted our blue collar work and displaced a section of our society out of its place but with say the impending advance of AI it appears to me that these sorts of issues will actually continue to further spread into clerical and white collar employment which is already seeing relative wages stagnation. We are looking to 20th century cures for 21st century issues.

Brexit certainly recognises the issue, as of course does Trump, but I remain to be convinced they will elicit a palatable cure.

The very long term cure is likely to involve a diminishing of self worth through work, actually a diminishing of the Protestant work ethic and the importance of work to living standards, but with an ageing population and more and more demands on the state to deal with the arising costs I am very dubious Brexit will in any way reduce the divide between the haves and the have nots within developed countries.

I can see a continuance of less developed countries continuing to catch up but frankly expect to see further widening of life outcomes in developed countries; in effect developed countries need to swallow the bitter pill that there will continue to be a slow, multi generation, erosion within society and Brexit will not imho make a blind bit of difference to that process except possibly accelerate the changes and make them even more uncomfortable than they might have been.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158741

Postby ap8889 » August 11th, 2018, 1:09 pm

The difference between your position and mine, Charlottesquare, is that I think action on behalf of the British working class is worthy in and of itself. It plays out far better than apathy and inaction. Your position of refusal to attempt change to help friends and countrymen who are poor and desperate, just because there are a billions of poor and desperate people in other nations cannot be right.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158744

Postby ursaminortaur » August 11th, 2018, 1:29 pm

ap8889 wrote:The difference between your position and mine, Charlottesquare, is that I think action on behalf of the British working class is worthy in and of itself. It plays out far better than apathy and inaction. Your position of refusal to attempt change to help friends and countrymen who are poor and desperate, just because there are a billions of poor and desperate people in other nations cannot be right.


Doing nothing may be better than pursuing a misguided action. A few hundred years ago bloodletting was pretty much the cure all for all diseases nowadays it would be considered criminal for most conditions. Brexit unfortunately is the political equivalent of bloodletting a supposed cure which is more likely in practice to harm the patient. There is much wrong with the UK but resolving those problems requires proper analysis and treatment not just doing something because "something has to be done".

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158747

Postby Itsallaguess » August 11th, 2018, 1:47 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
There is much wrong with the UK but resolving those problems requires proper analysis and treatment not just doing something because "something has to be done".


There isn't enough honesty for a proper analysis, from any side of any argument. No one will be honest about how we got here, no one will be honest about where we are, and no one will be honest about where we are heading.

Too many vested interests with huge lobbying power......

So what are people left with in such a situation? They are left with a 'trust your bones' vote - and that's what we got.

52% knew something wasn't right, and wanted out of it.

In such a world, we might not know which door needs knocking down to find the answers, but there will soon be one less door....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158750

Postby beeswax » August 11th, 2018, 1:52 pm

Again and again remainers are concentrating on the economics and not the politics..

It's a fact of life and been said often enough that you can always buy something cheaper somewhere else where the wages are lower..Emerging economies will catch up sometime but the rainbow goes further and further away..

I can't understand why remainers can't understand why Brexit happened..

It was because people want us to be in control of borders, laws, money, fishing and what not...whether that makes any 'significant' difference is immaterial. Sovereignty cannot ever be shared no matter how many people say it can...Allowing 27 other countries to dictate control of those things is a weakening of that even though they say we have a voice in that control. QMV was the death knell because there will be countries that vote against the dictates and directives but are outvoted. That is a clear LOSS of sovereignty even though some claim we are on the winning side most of the time.

British voters have no say on the Commission, or the EU Parliament except for electing a few MEP's that are insignificant and if ALL our MEP's voted one way it would not make one ounce of difference unless they can persuade hundreds of others to vote in the same way..Therefore its impossible for British voters to vote them out whereas we can collectively remove a British government without the help of foreign powers..

It's also incorrect to say that Brexit won't make any difference.

If and when we regain control of borders, laws, money, fishing and agric, then WE as a country can dictate how many immigrants we NEED and how many fish other countries can take from our areas. We can decide what laws we need that suit us and not 27 others...

It's obvious that unlimited immigration will drive DOWN wages as most immigrants are on far less and that will affect employment in some areas and the building trade as been mentioned already. It will also drive up house prices and rents and its a real mystery to me that although there is a net immigration figure of 300,000 people EACH year, the actual immigration is nearer half a million and so where do all these people go and live and afford houses and rents unless the government ie taxpayers support them in subsidies. Housing allowance and Working tax credits and disability benefits all have to be paid for...and the more people claiming the more it's going to cost..

If as we read that most British youngsters can't get on the housing ladder, what chance of poorer immigrants?

Its a fundamental mindset that a nation state is only independent when it can control its own laws and borders and when you can't then that is lost maybe for a very long time...if not forever as extricating oneself from even forty years of integration is proving very difficult as we can see..

Of course it's another mystery why our political class want to give up all those rights of self government except maybe for an easy life. Much easier for Brussels to make our laws than spending hours and hours debating them in the HoC...and all those cushy jobs and expenses in Brussels is mouth watering when just four or five years there can give you a pension that others only dream of...Ask Peter Mandelson and Neil Kinnock for example..

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158752

Postby ap8889 » August 11th, 2018, 1:57 pm

I think the analysis is pretty simple actually.

With open borders for all comers, pressure on public services and competition in the jobs market will intensify, to the detriment of the workers and service users.

The ultra-liberal elite are chuffed because their au-pair will work for buttons, their car gets washed for cheap, and their business can drive out pesky labour costs. The dinner party chat will be full of status markers to display how unlike those ghastly Trump and Brexit voters they are. As JM Greer puts it: "the members of this same caste had ....convinced themselves that the policies that furthered their own interests at everyone else’s expense were not only the only alternative, but the only moral alternative."

Well, stuff them. Doing nothing suits you Sir, but not me.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158753

Postby Lootman » August 11th, 2018, 1:58 pm

beeswax wrote:Again and again remainers are concentrating on the economics and not the politics.

What strikes me is that their focus is short-term and based on a fear of teething problems and temporary dislocations. Few Remainers speak in inspiring terms about the EU or even seem to like it that much. They just don't wan't their feathers ruffled and prefer an easy life.

It will take years for this to play out. Perhaps decades before a real judgement can be made. And yet they focus on whether there will be a traffic jam in Kent, or we can't get avocados for a few weeks. Or else fanciful projections of people dying in the streets.

As you say, I think they just don't understand why they lost and still can't believe it two years on.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158757

Postby XFool » August 11th, 2018, 2:24 pm

ap8889 wrote:https://quillette.com/2018/08/03/britains-populist-revolt/

Cross posted from Monevator, I thought this article was excellent, and sums up why I support Leave.

"Today, looking back, I see that most people never really had an interest in exploring what underpinned Brexit. To many on the liberal Left, Brexit is to be opposed, not understood. There has been no conversation about why people voted for Brexit because conversations require a reply. One side has spoken but, with a few rare exceptions, almost nobody on the other side has thought about what such a reply might be."

Interestingly, attempts on here to try to better "understand" what lies behind the result seemed, to this Remainer at least, to have been met with what amounts, from some quarters, to attempts to shut down that very debate.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158759

Postby Howyoudoin » August 11th, 2018, 2:34 pm

XFool wrote:Interestingly, attempts on here to try to better "understand" what lies behind the result seemed, to this Remainer at least, to have been met with what amounts, from some quarters, to attempts to shut down that very debate.



Really? You must have a very bad memory as I made my reasons clear just this week and you even replied on that thread:

A Brexiteer comes clean

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=13064



HYD

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158761

Postby Charlottesquare » August 11th, 2018, 2:40 pm

ap8889 wrote:The difference between your position and mine, Charlottesquare, is that I think action on behalf of the British working class is worthy in and of itself. It plays out far better than apathy and inaction. Your position of refusal to attempt change to help friends and countrymen who are poor and desperate, just because there are a billions of poor and desperate people in other nations cannot be right.


Not so- it is your cure I disagree with as imho it is actually more damaging to those in need of help. These days a developed country cannot compete manufacturing low tech mass demand products with developing countries at the required wage levels in said developed country, Brexit is merely a label but re eliciting the change required it is a label on an empty box.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158762

Postby ap8889 » August 11th, 2018, 2:53 pm

I think that you are worried that Brexiteers may be right.

Crushing the opportunities for living wage work and training for millions of Britons in favour of zero-hours contracts for EU immigrants mostly in order to enrich the few at the top of the pile seems to be the only policy on offer from Remain.

Can you blame the voter for saying "No thanks, anything is better than more of the same".

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158768

Postby Charlottesquare » August 11th, 2018, 3:08 pm

Lootman wrote:
beeswax wrote:Again and again remainers are concentrating on the economics and not the politics.

What strikes me is that their focus is short-term and based on a fear of teething problems and temporary dislocations. Few Remainers speak in inspiring terms about the EU or even seem to like it that much. They just don't wan't their feathers ruffled and prefer an easy life.

It will take years for this to play out. Perhaps decades before a real judgement can be made. And yet they focus on whether there will be a traffic jam in Kent, or we can't get avocados for a few weeks. Or else fanciful projections of people dying in the streets.

As you say, I think they just don't understand why they lost and still can't believe it two years on.


So, in a global economy, ever shrinking in distances, what levers and controls will Brexit let out of the box that we do not already have that will make a difference to what some sections of our society can afford to be paid and their living standards yet we still produce anything, goods or services, at a competitive price to be resold? How can it be made to allow us to pay to change the social contracts, to influence the political?

We (developed world) have got away for years with using our tech/know how/ availability of capital/ rights in property to manage to still compete,
against countries which had just land, resources, labour,but that is finishing, the developing world is starting to have the know how (growth of universities overtaking ours), the capital,( China does not have enough projects overseas where they can bury their excess dollars, hence their investments in Africa etc), rights over property and the rule of law (This is improving in other economies though not all), so we have diminishing comparative advantage, we cannot , except re very specialist manufacturing, fight toe to toe and win, hence our service sector selling us daft numbers of cups of coffee has grown, but it is never going to provide high value added employment.

You cannot disconnect the economy from politics, the economy dictates the political realities that can be engendered, it always, whether it boils down to social provision, health, anything, boils down to total GDP and how much of it the state can requisition for the common good without destroying the goose that lays the golden egg.

In a capitalist world economy single governments, unless enormous, have little individual power to change how the world operates, Brexit is like Trump the ultimate con, do this and then x, but the world will just not enable x, the large invisible hand dictates what is possible not the illusion of self determination.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158771

Postby Charlottesquare » August 11th, 2018, 3:16 pm

ap8889 wrote:I think that you are worried that Brexiteers may be right.

Crushing the opportunities for living wage work and training for millions of Britons in favour of zero-hours contracts for EU immigrants mostly in order to enrich the few at the top of the pile seems to be the only policy on offer from Remain.

Can you blame the voter for saying "No thanks, anything is better than more of the same".


I can see no economic case why Brexit would be right, zero hours contracts are an abomination but you cannot magic a solution, wages in the UK are a factor of productivity and that is impacted by the rest of the world and competition, ignoring this is imho wishful thinking.

People may have voted for Brexit because they honestly believed it could improve their position within UK society, I do not blame them for so doing. I just believe they have been sold an unrealistic outcome, I can see nothing in Brexit that will overall make the changes they appear to have desired.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158773

Postby XFool » August 11th, 2018, 3:30 pm

Howyoudoin wrote:
XFool wrote:Interestingly, attempts on here to try to better "understand" what lies behind the result seemed, to this Remainer at least, to have been met with what amounts, from some quarters, to attempts to shut down that very debate.

Really? You must have a very bad memory as I made my reasons clear just this week and you even replied on that thread:

A Brexiteer comes clean

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=13064

HYD

I've no idea why you think the thread referred to has anything much to do with my previous post. If you feel it does then I think you will have to explain that further.

Rather, AFAIAC, it relates to much older threads (by and large).

BTW, yes, I have got a bad memory!

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158783

Postby beeswax » August 11th, 2018, 4:22 pm

Charlottesquare wrote:
Lootman wrote:
beeswax wrote:Again and again remainers are concentrating on the economics and not the politics.

What strikes me is that their focus is short-term and based on a fear of teething problems and temporary dislocations. Few Remainers speak in inspiring terms about the EU or even seem to like it that much. They just don't wan't their feathers ruffled and prefer an easy life.

It will take years for this to play out. Perhaps decades before a real judgement can be made. And yet they focus on whether there will be a traffic jam in Kent, or we can't get avocados for a few weeks. Or else fanciful projections of people dying in the streets.

As you say, I think they just don't understand why they lost and still can't believe it two years on.


So, in a global economy, ever shrinking in distances, what levers and controls will Brexit let out of the box that we do not already have that will make a difference to what some sections of our society can afford to be paid and their living standards yet we still produce anything, goods or services, at a competitive price to be resold? How can it be made to allow us to pay to change the social contracts, to influence the political?

We (developed world) have got away for years with using our tech/know how/ availability of capital/ rights in property to manage to still compete,
against countries which had just land, resources, labour,but that is finishing, the developing world is starting to have the know how (growth of universities overtaking ours), the capital,( China does not have enough projects overseas where they can bury their excess dollars, hence their investments in Africa etc), rights over property and the rule of law (This is improving in other economies though not all), so we have diminishing comparative advantage, we cannot , except re very specialist manufacturing, fight toe to toe and win, hence our service sector selling us daft numbers of cups of coffee has grown, but it is never going to provide high value added employment.

You cannot disconnect the economy from politics, the economy dictates the political realities that can be engendered, it always, whether it boils down to social provision, health, anything, boils down to total GDP and how much of it the state can requisition for the common good without destroying the goose that lays the golden egg.

In a capitalist world economy single governments, unless enormous, have little individual power to change how the world operates, Brexit is like Trump the ultimate con, do this and then x, but the world will just not enable x, the large invisible hand dictates what is possible not the illusion of self determination.


Charlottesquare...

I'm not sure you realise it but your post above shows exactly why we should NOT be in the EU but actually part of the 'global' economy and the huge error is remainers thinking we are small minded little Englanders when it's us that wants to have trade agreements with the RoW including the EU...We are the ones that see the 'global' opportunities and the 'global' challenges..You also forget we do pay a huge annual membership fee and the EU is a protective tariff area...ie NOT wedded to zero tariffs where poorer countries could benefit..

Its politicians that decide whether we should allow 500m people free access to the UK, its benefits system and social provision, housing, schools and hospitals...and whether they can fish in UK waters and take three quarters of the fish and decimating communities in the process. So although the economics can't be separated from the politics in the sense of the practicalities, the question for Brexit is based on taking 'back control' of the politics from Brussels...Where decisions are made for and by 28 countries and by simple logic there will be winners and losers in that process.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158791

Postby zico » August 11th, 2018, 5:07 pm

That abandonment of poor Britons by rich Britons is corrosive to a people, to a nation.


Interesting debate here, and I agree with the above statement. To my mind, Western democratic "business-as-usual" capitalism suffered a huge blow when the greed of the rich elites broke the cycle of ever-increasing prosperity in 2007, and then - much worse in most people's eyes - the elite that had caused the collapse then got rich as a result of the recession, while everyone else became worse off, to varying degrees - some lost their jobs, others lost job security and others suffered wage freezes. David Cameron's phrase "We're all in it together" resonated - but not in a good way, as people could see it simply wasn't true. The rich got richer, and everyone else got poorer. People noticed, and thought "hang on a minute, this surely can't be right". It just didn't seem fair or equitable. People thought "something must be done" and the simpler the better.

The elite did what they usually do in these circumstances (i.e. protecting their interests) and found a scapegoat for people to focus on - in this case "foreigners" taking your money and jobs, and "foreigners in the EU" acting against the UK interests. Nice and simple, easy to sell, easy to believe (if you don't think about it too much) and appeals to people's natural mistrust of those outside their groups. The same tactic worked in the USA - everything wrong with the USA is the fault of foreigners taking advantage of kindly old weak America in their various dastardly foreigner ways, and if you just get a tough guy to stand up and tell the various foreigners in no uncertain terms to stop doing bad things, everything would be fine and dandy again.

As a result, rather than the question "Should we rebalance things by shaking up the tax system (including asset taxes) so the elite once again contribute a fair share like they did pre-crash?" being put to a referendum, we had the EU question instead. We could have had a referendum on the question "Do we need a big shake-up and some way to stick it to the fat cats?" and the response would have been similar, although with a much bigger "Yes" vote!

The irony of the current situation is that people want better living conditions and wages, but that's actually what the EU help to provide with their negotiating strength to push through trade deals and regulations which insulate EU members from the harsh realities of worldwide competition.

Going out into the big bad world of global competition means we'll have to compete properly with the likes of China, Hong Kong and Vietnam for business, and they have people who will work for far less than UK wages. People like Jacob Rees-Mogg have already suggested that to make a success of Brexit, the UK will need to reduce regulations and make labour "more competitive" (i.e. much lower wages and longer hours). "Taking back control" will end up as "giving away control". Amazingly, Hong Kong is seen by some as a good model for the UK to emulate - despite the fact that it's a terrible place to work and live if you aren't rich. This kind of Brexit will be great for business owners and shareholders, but at the expense of workers, particularly lower-skilled workers.

Brexit was certainly driven by people's dissatisfaction with the status quo and a desire that any change must be for the better. Personally, I think people have been well and truly led up the garden path, and it's a real shame.


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